I put a caution in each one. That should do it.
Are you going to believe Brug or your lying eyes?"
There is a God has left a new comment on your post "Dog Notes from The Sausage Factory (Mequon, WELS)":
Note p. 357, from The Order of Salvation:
Quenstedt: The essence of imputation is a real assessment, which absolves the sinning man who believes in Christ [Caution: this could be misleading] from all his sins before the divine tribunal and actually ascribes to him in a judicial way the righteousness of Christ.
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There is a God has left a new comment on your post "Caution! Caution! - Ignore the Clear Justification...":
You want others? Here's two more:
p.355:
Gerhard: "Since the remission of sins has its foundation in Christ's righteousness on account of which, when it is laid hold of by faith, [Caution!] God receives us into grace, forgives our sins, and, in turn, when these sins have been remitted, imputes to us the righteousness of Christ;
p.356:
Baier: In other words all we have in mind is that the imputation of righteousness and of faith itself as the basis for justification (Caution!) is prior to that forensic act of justification by which men are absolved from the guilt of their sins, because when we are asked, ―Why does God justify men?‖ we answer, for the reason given previously, ―Because God imputes to man the righteousness or merit of Christ which he apprehends by faith, or because he judges that it belongs to this man in such a way that because of it he is absolved from the guilt of his sins‖ (Compendium, part III, chap. V, par. 11d, p 457).
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GJ - I do not know who There Is a God might be, but he or she found this in the Dog Notes, Order of Salvation. I thought the cautions were a bit of sarcasm from There Is, but no - that is the exact quotation, including the caution.
I know some of the current students at Mequon. I saw some of them playing on the floor at the Free home. I held another one at Ft. Wayne. I hope they wake up to the UOJ swindle.
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LutherRocks has left a new comment on your post "Caution! Caution! - Ignore the Clear Justification...":
Laity are encouraged not to split hairs over this...and yet this forensic justification that the synods attribute as 'objective' is in fact subjective. In other words there is no justification aside from faith alone...
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GJ - I know what you are saying Joe, but we should not kelm the dishonest and misleading terms Objective Justification and Subjective Justification. One cannot find the terms OJ and SJ in Luther, the Book of Concord, or the Post-Concord orthodox writers. The terms come from the English translation of the Halle University (Pietistic) dogmatics book by Georg Christian Knapp. I will publish more on this in a moment.
8 comments:
You want others? Here's two more:
p.355:
Gerhard: "Since the remission of sins has its foundation in Christ's righteousness on account of which, when it is laid hold of by faith, [Caution!] God receives us into grace, forgives our sins, and, in turn, when these sins have been remitted, imputes to us the righteousness of Christ;
p.356:
Baier: In other words all we have in mind is that the imputation of righteousness and of faith itself as the basis for justification (Caution!) is prior to that forensic act of justification by which men are absolved from the guilt of their sins, because when we are asked, ―Why does God justify men?‖ we answer, for the reason given previously, ―Because God imputes to man the righteousness or merit of Christ which he apprehends by faith, or because he judges that it belongs to this man in such a way that because of it he is absolved from the guilt of his sins‖ (Compendium, part III, chap. V, par. 11d, p 457).
Laity are encouraged not to split hairs over this...and yet this forensic justification that the synods attribute as 'objective' is in fact subjective. In other words there is no justification aside from faith alone...
More importantly...they are not in the Bible...
In my study on this topic of imputed righteousness, the Greek term “logizomai” is the English term for “reckon/impute/credit/etc,” (all terms are basically equivalently used) and when I look up that term in a popular lexicon here is what it is defined as:
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QUOTE: “This word deals with reality. If I “logizomai” or reckon that my bank book has $25 in it, it has $25 in it. Otherwise I am deceiving myself. This word refers to facts not suppositions.”
LINK: http://tinyurl.com/r92dch
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The lexicon states this term first and foremost refers to the actual status of something. So if Abraham’s faith is “logizomai as righteousness,” it must be an actually righteous act of faith, otherwise (as the Lexicon says) “I am deceiving myself.” This seems to rule out any notion of an alien righteousness, and instead points to a local/inherent righteousness.
The Lexicon gives other examples where “logizomai” appears, here are some examples:
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Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude [logizomai] that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Rom 4:4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted [logizomai] as a gift but as his due.
Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon [logizomai] ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom 8:18 For I reckon [logizomai] that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
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Notice in these examples that “logizomai” means to consider the actual truth of an object. In 3:28 Paul ‘reckons’ faith saves while the Law does not, this is a fact, the Law never saves. In 4:4 the worker’s wages are ‘reckoned’ as a debt because the boss is in debt to the worker, not giving a gift to him. In 6:11 the Christian is ‘reckoned’ dead to sin because he is in fact dead to sin. In 8:18 Paul ‘reckons’ the present sufferings as having no comparison to Heavenly glory, and that is true because nothing compares to Heavenly glory.
To use logizomai in the “alien status” way would mean in: (1) 3:28 faith doesn’t really save apart from works, but we are going to go ahead and say it does; (2) 4:4 the boss gives payment to the worker as a gift rather than obligation/debt; (3) 6:11 that we are not really dead to sin but are going to say we are; (4) 8:18 the present sufferings are comparable to Heaven’s glory.
This cannot be right.
So when the text plainly says “faith is logizomai as righteousness,” I must read that as ‘faith is reckoned as a truly righteous act’, and that is precisely how Paul explains that phrase in 4:18-22. That despite the doubts that could be raised in Abraham’s heart, his faith grew strong and convinced and “that is why his faith was credited as righteousness” (v4:22). This is also confirmed by noting the only other time “credited as righteousness” appears in Scripture, Psalm 106:30-31, where Phinehas’ righteous action was reckoned as such. This is confirmed even more when one compares another similar passage, Hebrews 11:4, where by faith Abel was commended as righteous.
You were on a roll, Nick, until you wrote "I must read that as ‘faith is reckoned as a truly righteous act’."
Faith is reckoned as righteousness. Your wording suggests a decision, but the Scriptures teach that the Word of the Gospel creates faith, which receives the alien righteousness of Christ.
Perhaps you did not mean it quite the way it looked at the end.
Hello Gregory,
So you agreed with my reasoning up to my conclusion, just not the conclusion itself? I don't see how an alien righteousness (or alien anything) is compatible with the term 'logizomai', since logizomai looks at the object itself and not something other (nor does it mean 'transfer').
Wisconsin Lutheran Seminary (WELS) professors sure are allergic to even a hint of justification by faith. Here's Forrest Bivens cautioning readers to a statement Adolf Hoenecke made in his commentary on Quenstedt's view of Christ's righteousness:
He says that the imputation is so powerful that through it the sinner is considered righteous before God's judgment just as if he had rendered the obedience himself (or, just as if he had done it himself). This thought he then develops in this way: The essence of imputation is a real assessment, which absolves the sinning man who believes in Christ [N.B.: this could be misleading] from all his sins before the divine tribunal and actually ascribes to him in a judicial way the righteousness of Christ. - (Hoenecke III, pp 344-345, English edition pp 328-329)
"Getting The Right Message Out – And Getting It Out The Right Way With Special Emphasis on Public Worship and Classroom Instruction" By Forrest L. Bivens; Prepared for and delivered to the Pastor-Teacher-Delegate meeting of the Ohio Conference of the Michigan District on January 20, 2003 in Cincinnati, OH.
Now I don't know if Bivens' "[N.B.: this could be misleading]" is quoting Hoenecke or Meyer, Hoenecke's student. Either way, it seems the "cautions" to justification by faith alone just keep getting passed on generation after generation.
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