Ad Fontes Was More Like Ad Halle University - For Wauwatosa

AC V has left a new comment on your post "Deutschlander - UOJ Is Missing from the Book of Co...":

"Ad fontes" was the clarion call of the Wauwatosa theologians. "The BoC is skewing our understanding of Justification and the Ministry. We must look to the Scriptures alone."

The Wauwatosa "ad fontes" got us "UOJ" and "Every Member a Minister."

The Fathers went "ad fontes" too, and they gave us AC IV and V, crystal clear confessions of Justification by faith alone and the Ministry by which faith comes.

Mark Braun WELS, WLC - Soil Testing To Make Fuller Seminarians Swoon:Effective Church Growth Principles!

"What do people mean when they talk about effective church growth principles? Do we make God's kingdom come? 'God's kingdom certainly comes by itself,' Luther wrote. Ours is to sow the seed. We hamper the kingdom if we sow carelessly or if we do not sow at all. But we do not make it grow."
Mark Braun, "The Growing Seed, What Do People Mean When They Talk about Effective Church Growth Principles?" The Northwestern Lutheran, September 1, 1991, p. 300. Mark 4:26-29.

"Soil Testing. An evangelistic strategy that seeks out those people who are open to receiving the gospel at the present time." [Note the Mark Braun NWL article about the sower and the seed, employing this soil testing concept.]
C. Peter Wagner, ed., with Win Arn and Elmer Towns, Church Growth: The State of the Art, Wheaton: Tyndale House, 1986, p. 300.

"In my opinion, therefore, Church Growth receptivity and 'soil testing' techniques are often unfairly criticized as if they were by definition synergistic. It is a fact that some fields are, for various historical and sociological reasons, more receptive to the preaching of the gospel and church planting than others. Our home and world mission boards make these judgments all the time in deciding where to begin churches or send missionaries."
Rev. Curtis Peterson, former WELS World Mission Board, "A Second and Third Look at Church Growth Principles," Metro South Pastors Conference Mishicot, Wisconsin, February 3, 1993 p. 12 Mark 4:

"If one associates much with heretics, one finally also makes oneself partaker of their false doctrine, their lies, and their errors; for he who touches pitch soils his hands with it."
What Luther Says, An Anthology, 3 vols., ed., Ewald Plass, St. Louis: Concordia Publishing House, 1959, II, p. 646.

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Charis Spawned Church and Change (WELS)
From Bailing Water

Monday, October 22, 2007

The Church and Change group is not divisive – Dr. Mark Braun


In his closing sermon at the Church and Change conference Dr. Mark Braun jokes about Rev. Mark Bartling’s understanding of the Church and Change group.

Church and Change
(if this link doesn't work go the churchandchange site and follow the audio link to the sermon)

In his sermon, Dr. Braun says that he recognizes that over the last decade groups in the WELS have become polarized. He even says that “Birds of a feather flock together” (there you go again..oh those Magpies). He further says that these organized groups could be called an ecclesiastical version of political action groups.

Rev. Braun then quotes Rev. Mark Bartling’s article from the Christian News in which Rev. Bartling said “we now have an official group in the WELS entitled Church and Change. The name itself should tell you something is wrong here.”

Dr. Braun pauses in his sermon and the Church and Change congregation erupts in laughter (at the expense of a nameless WELS pastor)

Dr. Braun goes on with his sermon and says he would like to ask this (nameless) pastor (who we know as the Rev. Bartling), “what is wrong here? Is it that we can’t put church and change in the same sentence? or the same title? Is it that if it is the church it can not change and if there is change it better not be in the church!?”

I wonder why he didn’t ask Rev. Bartling these questions directly instead of in a Conference sermon…hmmm.

Dr. Braun’s sermon goes on to emphasis the changeless Gospel in a changing church. I would invite you to listen to this quote and the entire sermon in context and post your responses.


Comments on Bailing Water

RandomDan said...
Has Church and Change even made it into the late 90s? That audio file is huge. Do these people not know how to use mp3's?

October 22, 2007 6:14 PM


Anonymous said...
randomdan brings up a really interesting point. The Church and Changers see themselves as cutting-edge innovators within the WELS, but compared to the church and the world at large, they're really far, far behind the times. The audio file is an example of this. They think they're making their churches seem cutting edge and innovative, but when a visitor compares the WELS praise band to the megachurch praise band or the WELS PowerPoint to the PowerPoint they saw last week at work, the WELS church seems cheesy and behind the times. Let's be honest, praise bands and PowerPoint aren't the strong points of the Lutheran church. Why not focus on what are our strong points--the liturgy and Scriptural doctrine? Those are the things that we can do excellently. Those are the things that can set us apart from the Evangelical churches. And yet those are the very things that C&C seek to eliminate.

October 22, 2007 6:37 PM


Anonymous said...
Here's my reaction to the sermon:

It sounded more like a defense for the existence of C&C than a sermon proclaiming law and gospel.

There wasn't really any law. Instead of calling the congregation to repentance for the times when they have lost confidence in the power of the gospel, he sought to justify their opinion that we can make the gospel more effective.

There wasn't really any gospel. He talked a lot about the gospel, but never actually proclaimed the gospel itself. He spent more time talking about old TV characters than Christ.

The sermon was filled with little jabs at those silly, unenlightened WELS pastors and people who aren't a part of their special little group. The condescending laughter after each jab revealed exactly how C&C people view the rest of us poor WELS people. (The laughter of the Pietistic cell groups in Spener's day toward the rest of the Lutheran church probably sounded quite similar.)

In short, it was a propaganda piece, not a proclamation of law and gospel.

October 22, 2007 7:03 PM


Anonymous said...
I just wanted to agree with the person who mentioned that compared to "evangelical" Christianity...our "efforts" at praise bands and what not is pretty laughable.

Plus, they can't so any live streaming nor do they seem to be able to condense their audio files....so odd.

I hate when things get nasty--snarky and "tit for tat"...it's all very high schoolish. It is really saddening to hear it being utilized in a sermon...revolting.

Thanks for the link. I'm off to listen to the "sermon" (is that truly what it was?).

October 22, 2007 7:52 PM


rlschultz said...
The WELS is always a day late and a dollar short in jumping on the latest fads. Yes, the sermon is a .wav file instead of the compressed, .mpg file. Most teenagers who are computer savvy know that .wav files are too big, even with broadband access. That was a really cheap shot by Dr. Braun against Rev. Bartling. Furthermore, if the tables were turned, Rev. Bartling would be getting flogged with the "8 & 18 switch" (8th commandment & Matthew Chapter 18) by not approaching the offender on an individual basis. Even though, neither admonition applies when the sin is public.

October 22, 2007 9:35 PM


A WELS Pastor said...
I don't know if Pastor Bartling is still in the active ministry or not. But he needs to pursue this through his DP and Synod President if need be.

October 22, 2007 9:51 PM


Anonymous said...
Never in my life have I ever heard one WELS pastor use another as the object of ridicule in a sermon to get some cheap laughs. That's what those of us in the WELS who are still confessional are to the C&Cers--a joke.

How disgusting.

October 22, 2007 10:06 PM

***

GJ - Bailing Water gets a lot of comments. This set did not include any from synod minders, who guard the image of Holy Mother WELS by attacking anyone who doubts the immaculate conception of the Wisconsin sect. For instance, one poster bullied Bailing Water about the truth of Church and Change removing their fraudulent link because of SP Schroder's insistence. Surely Bailing Water must be lying! But no, Bailing Water spoke to Schroeder about the problem. Isn't that the rule?

Being flogged in a sermon is not new to me. I have experienced it in the LCA and in WELS. My friend was at a WELS conference where I was denounced by name by a WELS VP. My friend said to him, "Too bad Greg wasn't here to defend himself." The WELS VP had to leave the ministry, for cause. And I liked the guy.

Kuske and Valleskey made a point of denouncing me for opposing Church Growth. The Church Growth pastors took their swipes, even when guests in my pulpit in the WELS. Satan's disciples are uncouth, but tolerated. Thus God smites people who tolerate falsehood, according to Luther.

Pastors and laity must get used to this approach by apostates. The dogs howl when they feel the pain, but they bite a lot, too. In the long run we will be dead and answering our Savior for what we taught.

***

Anonymous has left a new comment on your post "WELS Pastor Attacked (Not By Name) During Church a...":

And what about the swipes you take at people, twisting the truth about them, telling untruths and even outright lies? You criticize others, but yet you do the same thing, and even worse. Didn't Jesus say something about a sliver and a plank?

GJ - Oh yes, another string of unwarranted accusations from Rev. Mouse. I suppose he got another day pass from the high-security facility where they are treating him. (Just kidding, Mouse.) No other Lutheran blog has so much raw information, verbatim quotations with the sources, and quotations from interesting blogs. I do not see a micron of evidence for the charges made--anonymously--above. Rev. Mouse, aren't you supposed to go to me and tell me face-to-face about my many sins, to rescue me from Hell, as Paul Kelm tried to do?

***

Anonymous has left a new comment on your post "WELS Pastor Attacked (Not By Name) During Church a...":

I have a better name for this group who feels they've discovered a better way to recruit new members. Instead of 'Church and Change', let's call it what it is.... A CHANGED CHURCH. Folks, it's the Word of God, pure and simple. You shouldn't have to fancy it up and package it into the catagory of entertainment. It is what it is. If these people want to change it, let them split off and start their own reformed Lutheran churches. But quit trying to change our liturgical and traditional worship services. The two do not mix. I refuse to buy a ticket for their show.

Mark Braun - A Kind Word for the Pope

FICL - Nee The Northwestern Lutheran - Marketing the Gospel

"Marketing churches to reach people is consistent with biblical principles and doesn't mean the message needs to be watered down or compromised, according to researcher George Barna...Church growth is primarily accomplished by word of mouth. Barna advised clergy to see themselves as cheerleaders rather than leaders, as laypeople carry out the practical marketing of the church."
News From Around the World, The Northwestern Lutheran, WELS, November 15, 1991 p. 395.

More Exits from ELCA

More info from Pastor Barnhart: Via George Erdner, ALPB

5. IMMANUEL LUTHERAN CHURCH, ROCKWELL, NC passed first vote to leave the ELCA, 126-5.

6. TRINITY LUTHERAN CHURCH, CARRINGTON, ND passed second vote to leave the ELCA, 161-16.

7. ST. JOHN LUTHERAN CHURCH, WESTBORO, MO passed second vote to leave the ELCA and voted to join the NALC and LCMC 90-2.

8. ST. JOHN LUTHERAN CHURCH, DANFORTH, IL passed second vote to leave the ELCA, 80-17 and voted to join NALC 78-6.

9. ST. ANDREW BY THE SEA LUTHERAN CHURCH, ATLANTIC CITY, NJ passed second vote to leave the ELCA and join the NALC by 98%.

10. ST. PAUL LUTHERAN CHURCH, WATERTOWN, WI passed second vote to leave the ELCA and join NALC.

11. ST. PAUL LUTHERAN CHURCH, BRENHAM, TX failed to pass first vote to leave the ELCA, with only 25% voting in favor of leaving.

That brings the totals (as I have them) up to:

Leaving = 88
Left ELCA = 508
Total = 596

New starts = 203

To all of those who keep predicting over and over and over and over that the exodus from the ELCA won't keep going much longer, do any of you care to go out on a limb and predict when the leaving is going to stop, or at least slow down?

Stolzenburg and Church Growth in Columbus, Ohio - WELS

"IT'S COLOSSAL! IT'S GIGANTIC! IT'S SPECTACULAR! A PERSONAL NOTE FROM WM. J. BRITTON, RE: CHURCH GROWTH SEMINAR, FEB. 24-25, 1985. Registration is 347! We prayed for response - the Lord gave it to us!...Win Arn says, 'We are not here to make you work harder, but only to help you work smarter.'"
CG Conference, attended by 46 St. Paul, Columbus, members, pastor, and vicar Mike Nitz.


"We have discovered that the Early Church was an institution that unknowingly saw its world through Church Growth eyes. We have some benefits they did not have in that we can look back today and analyze their successes and failures."
Floyd L. Stolzenburg, "Church Growth - the Acts of the Apostles," Taught at St. Paul's Lutheran Church, Columbus, Ohio.

"In the autumn of 1985 and the winter of 1985-1986, a truly momentous step was taken by the five Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod (WELS) congregations in the metropolitan area of Columbus, Ohio. The five pastors and lay representatives of those churches organized and incorporated Lutheran Parish Resources, Inc., the first Church Growth institute in the WELS."
Vicar David G. Peters, "Lutheran Parish Resources: Pilot Program in Church Growth," Mequon: Wisconsin Lutheran Seminary, April 27, 1987 p. 1.

"There is no Church Growth Movement Program in our synod. Our church body is opposed to the false theology of the Church Growth Movement. We have no programs inside or outside the budget with that name. Nor do we have any programs with a different name which utilize Church Growth theology."
Wayne D. Mueller, Administrator for the BPS, WELS, "A Response to 'Saving Souls vs. New Programs,'" The Northwestern Lutheran, November 1, 1991, February 1, 1992 p. 50.

Wendland - TELL Begun To Promote the Cause of Church Growth

"The publication TELL ('The Evangelism Life Line') has been inaugurated to promote the cause of church growth."
Ernst H. Wendland, "Church Growth Theology," Wisconsin Lutheran Quarterly, April, 1981, 78, p. 105.

***

GJ - The graduates of the 1980s are the WELS leaders of today. They have kept their silence about Church Growth. As a body, they love Universal Objective Justification, because it opens the door to everything. Moreover, UOJ is so complicated and self-contradictory that its own advocates do not understand it.

Joel Gerlach and Ernest Wendland were probably the first Mequon professors of Church Growth. Gerlach admitted in a letter to Herman Otten that he studied at Fuller Seminary.

Reuel Schulz WELS - Fuller Student and Pete Wagner Fan

"For several years I've been a Pete Wagner fan. Although I don't see eye to eye with him on many important theological points (he approves of faith healing and speaking in tongues as long as it promotes church growth and he comes from a Billy Graham decision for conversion doctrinal background), he is the most eloquent spokesman of the Church Growth Movement. A prolific author on mission/evangelism/church growth subjects, Wagner is also an excellent teacher and a crystal clear writer."
Reuel J. Schulz The Evangelism Life Line (WELS) Winter, 1980.

"The publication TELL ('The Evangelism Life Line') has been inaugurated to promote the cause of church growth." Ernst H. Wendland, "Church Growth Theology," Wisconsin Lutheran Quarterly, April, 1981, 78, p. 105.

WELS DP Rutschow - Promoting Church Growth Decades Ago

The supernatural glow comes from David Rutschow's Enthusiasm.

"Not that Word and Sacrament are ineffective in incorporating new souls into our fellowship. Not at all! But according to some serious Church Growth studies, as many as one-third of the people gained for protestant church membership today do not feel they really belong."
David N. Rutschow, The Evangelism Life Line (WELS), Winter, 1985, p. 3. WELS DP for Southwest Wisconsin, perhaps the most loosey-goosey district of all, maybe even worse than Englebrecht's Anything Goes District.

Your Thrivent Dollars Support Abortion on Demand

Please note that Thrivent Dakota Valley Director, Karoline 'Kari" Gittus feels Planned Parenthood is a "benevolent" interest/passion....

http://www.lutheransonline.com/servlet/lo_ProcServ/dbpage=page&mode=display&gid=20101264872858903701111555&pg=20101264872865637701111555

Thrivent Community - Dakota Valley

Board Members

Karoline 'Kari' Gittus Congregation Easter Lutheran Professional Experience Lab Tech – Mayo Clinic, High School Teacher – Highland High School, Retail Manager – Burdines, Scientist/Trainer – Boehringer Manrheim Degrees/Licenses B.S. Biology/Chemistry, B.S. Education Community Organizations/Nonprofit Boards MN DFL – Associate Precinct Chair, PTA Benevolent Interests and Personal Passions UWEC, SMA, YMCA, Lupus Foundation, Planned Parenthood Hobbies/Favorite Pastimes Tennis, Skiing, Golf, Gardening

Scholarship - The Laity Have It - But That Is Too Much Work for the Clergy

Knapp is the unmentioned daddy of the Syn Conference. The leaven of his false doctrine slowly permeated the LCMS, WELS, and ELS.

Very few laity argue for Universal Objective Justification, that every single person is born forgiven of sin, justified before birth, according to their Roman Catholic hero, Ed Preuss. First trimester?

Scholarship means taking the time to study. The word comes the Greek term for leisure. Many early pastors were scholars. They pursued their studies so diligently that they became known in their fields, not always in theology.

The power of the Word does not come from knowing Greek or Hebrew. Too many seminary graduates simply repeat what they were told in class and never grow beyond that. Clergy plagiarism of sermons is well known, facilitated by the Internet. But they seldom plagiarize Luther, because Biblical doctrine demands a capacity for God's spiritual treasures rather than a lust for beer and a leer for busts.

The laity offer insights and questions from their studies that the professional clergy cannot or will not answer. The answer of the lazy clergy is often, "I went to seminary. I am the expert. I actually studied Greek? Do you know Greek? No?"

So the Word of God is so obscure that only the priesthood can understand it? The pastors teach against the Word of God to force their false doctrine on the laity. The clergy do not even comprehend that they are arguing Roman Catholicism to maintain their monopoly.

Walther Taught Decision Theology - And J. P. Meyer Taught the Same

"For God has already forgiven you your sins 1800 years ago when He in Christ absolved all men by raising Him after He first had gone into bitter death for them. Only one thing remains on your part so that you also possess the gift. This one thing is--faith. And this brings me to the second part of today's Easter message, in which I now would show you that every man who wants to be saved must accept by faith the general absolution, pronounced 1800 years ago, as an absolution spoken individually to him."
C. F. W. Walther, The Word of His Grace, Sermon Selections, "Christ's Resurrection--The World's Absolution" Lake Mills: Graphic Publishing Company, 1978 p. 233. Brosamen, p. 138. Mark 16:1-8.

"Objectively speaking, without any reference to an individual sinner's attitude toward Christ's sacrifice, purely on the basis of God's verdict, every sinner, whether he knows about it or not, whether he believes it or not, has received the status of a saint. What will be his reaction when he is informed about this turn of events? Will he accept, or will he decline?"
J. P. Meyer, Ministers of Christ, A Commentary on the Second Epistle of Paul to the Corinthians, Milwaukee: Northwestern Publishing House, 1963, p. 103f. 2 Corinthians 5:18-21.

These two statements should make Missouri and WELS put on their sackcloth and ashes. They replicate what Knapp taught at Halle University. Walther and J. P. Meyer come closest to Babtist Decision Theology here, but Babtists would never say that babies are born without sin, already forgiven, etc.

The numbskulls at LutherQueasy cannot grasp this. Only A. J. Loeschman realizes the implications of their Objective Justification myth. Also, Kevin Vogts opened a Lenski and verified what I have said many times before, that the New Testament scholar tried his hand at bridging the gap. I find that quite comical, because the densest UOJ advocates are always denouncing Lenski and anyone who reads Lenski, showing they have never read more than a few sentences of the commentaries - if that.

One even ventured to offer the popularity fallacy - no group endorses justification by faith today, so they must all be right. The trouble with arguing popularity is identification of the truth with popularity. Thus the will of God is revealed by the masses.

Historically, UOJ is new to Lutherdom, since it comes from the Pietists. UOJ is also new to the Syn Conference, at least in Missouri and WELS. Missouri taught justification by faith in its old German catechism and still teaches it in a current catechism (KJV) they sell. I just bought one.

WELS always taught justification by faith in its Gausewitz catechism, which was by no means confined to the Wisconsin Sect. Gausewitz was a respected leader of the Synodical Conference. His catechism seems to have been the dominant one in WELS until they got rid of him for the Kuske UOJ version.

In the quotation above, Walther says - All you need to do is believe in what I just said, that everyone has already been forgiven.

Meyer says the same in different words. The "fact" of everyone forgiven is stated. Will the listener accept or decline?

The UOJers have to go through all kinds of contortions to harmonize their delusions with the Word of God. They lack any concept of the efficacious Word in the Means of Grace, so they only make matters worse when they yak, and the yakking never stops.

Here is the remedy, which can be found in all the Lutheran writings--and the Bible!- until the Pietists merged the atonement with justification, just as they amalgamated Calvinism and Lutheranism.

1. We are born sinful, believers, captive to original sin.
   
2. Only the Gospel can make a difference in our state.
   
3. The power of the Word is so great that the Holy Spirit converts us through the Promises of God, whether we are babies (infant baptism) or converted later by hearing the Word.
   
4. The Holy Spirit creates faith, which receives the righteousness of Christ. That is why one section of the Formula of Concord is called The Righteousness of Faith. Perhaps LutherQueasy should start a new discussion site - ChemnitzQueasy.
   
5. This faith is nurtured by the Word, in preaching, teaching, and communing.
   

LutherQueasy pastoral work is well illustrated by what DP Robert Mueller admitted. His VP was exposed as an adulterer. The VP confessed and got a promotion. He asked DP Mueller to lie for him and tell everyone he was resigning because of depression. DP Mueller agreed to lie, after assuring the lout that he was already forgiven. Thus the Gospel is perverted and destroyed by UOJ. There is no genuine contrition because everyone is already forgiven. The "Gospel" is just a universal excuse and reason to go on in defiance of God's Word.

Deceit and sanctimony are the watchwords of the UOJ sorority.

Walther - You Must Make a Decision for Christ

"For God has already forgiven you your sins 1800 years ago when He in Christ absolved all men by raising Him after He first had gone into bitter death for them. Only one thing remains on your part so that you also possess the gift. This one thing is--faith. And this brings me to the second part of today's Easter message, in which I now would show you that every man who wants to be saved must accept by faith the general absolution, pronounced 1800 years ago, as an absolution spoken individually to him."
C. F. W. Walther, The Word of His Grace, Sermon Selections, "Christ's Resurrection--The World's Absolution" Lake Mills: Graphic Publishing Company, 1978 p. 233. Brosamen, p. 138. Mark 16:1-8.

"Objectively speaking, without any reference to an individual sinner's attitude toward Christ's sacrifice, purely on the basis of God's verdict, every sinner, whether he knows about it or not, whether he believes it or not, has received the status of a saint. What will be his reaction when he is informed about this turn of events? Will he accept, or will he decline?"
J. P. Meyer, Ministers of Christ, A Commentary on the Second Epistle of Paul to the Corinthians, Milwaukee: Northwestern Publishing House, 1963, p. 103f. 2 Corinthians 5:18-21.

Deutschlander - UOJ Is Missing from the Book of Concord Because They Did Not Need It

"Our Lutheran Confessions have no separate article on Objective Justification; the closest we can come to a paragraph of formulation for this doctrine is in Article IX of the Formula of Concord, under the doctrine of election. But even that is not really sufficient or suitable for stating the orthodox position in a clear and unequivocal manner. For our Fathers it was not difficult at all to consider objective and subjective justification under the same heading, and they were apparently unaware of any need to separate them or distinguish between them. But such was and remained the case only so long as the orthodox had a clear understanding of the nature of faith; once that understanding was gone, it became necessary (at the end of the last century) to begin making such as (sic) distinction."
Daniel Deutschlander, 1977

Luther Rocks - On Rock N Roll in Round Rock

Monday, May 23, 2011

Words and Actions IV

The experience of Christ the Rock shook me and my wife to the foundation of what it is to be part of the true Christian Church on Earth. After we left, most of the original nucleus exited as well. The majority of the secondary layer left as well. Pastors Jon Mahnke and Jim Radloff, who were members and have had influential roles in WELS also moved on. Since they were retired clergy, I can only fathom. My concerns with the ministry were serious enough...my only regret since there were so many issues to address was our oversight to report Pastor Doebler communing a soul prior to instruction. And when my wife Lisa confronted Doebler about this, his response was 'he has agreed to instruction'.

As Lutherans we are taught to always 'put the best construction' on things. Thanks be to God Luther did not always practice what he preached. Actions do speak louder than words as my mother always taught me.

In the midst of a failing economy in February of 2010 I was released from my employment due to company downsizing. It was a rough time for Lisa and me. Our youngest son, Austin was deployed to Afghanistan and now I was out of work. But God uses these times to draw us closer to Him. For me, the extra time between job hunting and keeping my chops up for my gig (which thankfully turned into a good supplement to unemployment), afforded time to dig into Lutheran theology and church worship and practice. Thankfully I was able to secure employment on a tip from Pastor Patterson of an opening with a company where a fellow member had influence in August of 2010.

It was puzzling to my wife and I that Christ the Rock just went on as if nothing ever happened. I had 'liked' the CTR Facebook page to keep abreast of what was going on since we were in still in fellowship. It seemed that nothing really ever changed. There were many comments made on FB according to reformed sources and authors. I made comments about them. There was even a post regarding humility. I posted a beautiful quote from Luther regarding humility: "True humility does not know that it is humble. If it did, it would be proud from the contemplation of so fine a virtue." It was deleted.

As time went on during our membership at Holy Word, it started to become clear to us the reasons for our puzzlement concerning CTR as well as some developments at Holy Word...or maybe our eyes became opened.

Up next: Relaxed liturgy, music and WELS' first Deaconess...yes that is a proper noun...

Becker - UOJ Was Unanimous in the Synodical Conference, Except for Gausewitz, the old Missouri Catechism, and Brief Statements before 1932

http://www.wlsessays.net/files/BeckerJustification.PDF

Sig Becker, 1984

“That God has punished the sins of all men in Christ finds few questioners among Lutherans who are still interested in such questions as those we are discussing today. But, sad to say, there are some Lutherans who want to be conservative and orthodox who find it very difficult to say with equal fervor and vigor that God has forgiven the sins of all men in Christ.

Anyone who is at home in the literature of the old Synodical Conference surely must know that this was the unanimous and unquestioned position of our Synodical Conference fathers. We will make no effort to demonstrate that fact with actual quotations.”

Sig Becker, Universal Justification, 1984

Jackson – This claim is pure deception, since the Missouri Synod did not teach UOJ in its 1901 catechism, as shown by Pastor Vernon Harley’s translation. Also, UOJ was not taught in Missouri statements before the 1932 Brief Statement, which was one among many. The UOJ faction has elevated the 1932 document above all previous statements, which have disappeared down the memory hole. They also choose to emphasize their 1932 statement as if it transcends and replaces the Book of Concord. That is, they choose to teach UOJ from the 1932 statement while quoting the Book of Concord.

Sig Becker, UJ, 1984

However, we should be aware that also a Calvinist, who would most assuredly reject the doctrine of universal justification, could perhaps feel perfectly at ease with the concept of objective justification. Strictly speaking, the term objective justification means that a sinner is justified by God whether he believes it or not. Many Calvinists believe that this is true of the elect. While they might therefore be willing to accept our terminology when we speak of “objective justification” they would vehemently reject the concept of “universal justification” because that would conflict with their doctrine of limited atonement.

Jackson – Here Becker admitted what former Calvinist L. P. Cruz has contended many times, knowing this from his own training and experience: Objective Justification is Calvinism. Becker’s verbal backflips do not rescue any of his new terms from the influence of Calvin, since Luther taught justification by faith alone.

Scaer - Whoever Denies Justification Without Faith Does Not Believe in It at All

Whoever denies objective justification reduces justification to the act of believing and does not believe in it at all. Logically, he denies the atonement and preaches that man is responsible for his sins.

David Scaer, The Third Use of the Law: Resolving the Tension, CTQ, 2005, p. 256.

Required Reading - Just a Vacation in Rome - Justification and Rome

LutherRocks has left a new comment on your post "Preuss, Hero of UOJ, Roman Catholic - We Are Justi...":

BTW...Justification and Rome should be required reading for all seminary students regardless of synod lines...it is a short read even for those with ADD...it is not Just a Vacation in Rome...it is about the object of justification...not objective justification...let the hearer hear...

Valleskey - UOJ Enthusiast Pounded the Last Nails on the WELS Coffin

Class of 1962, The Sausage Factory.

"In Christ, God has effected a universal justification, a universal reconciliation, a universal ransom, a universal atonement. Different terms, but all communicating the same message: God in Christ has declared the whole world to be not guilty."
David J. Valleskey, We Believe--Therefore We Speak, Milwaukee: Northwestern Publishing House, 1995, p. 71.

"Introduction to the Church Growth Movement by Lutheran authors, Hunter, Kent R., Foundations for Church Growth (New Haven, MO: Leader Publishing Co., 1983) - the author, an LC-MS clergyman who has now set up his own church growth consulting service, performs the valuable service in this 204 page book of presenting an introduction to church growth goals and terminology. Werning, Waldo, Vision and Strategy for Church Growth, (Chicago: Moody Press, 1977) - Werning, active for years in LC-MS stewardship work, explains the foundations, presuppositions and principles of church growth and then shows how a congregation can benefit from making use of certain church growth principles - of the two books listed in this category, Werning's is the more practical."
Prof. David J. Valleskey, Class Notes, The Theology and Practice of Evangelism, PT 358A p. 6.

Bob: "..I'd like to share with you a book I came across the other day. It's interesting, easy to read, and may be the answer to our problem..." [GJ - Could this be the Bible, The Book of Concord, What Luther Says?] "Its title is Your Church Can Grow, and it's filled with all sorts of practical hints that could help us turn things around here." Author: "Bob didn't realize it at the time, but in his browsing he had stumbled upon one of many similar books written from the perspective of the church growth movement, books with such titles as How to Grow a Church, Ten Steps for Church Growth, Church Growth: Strategies that Work, and Leading Your Church to Growth." Prof. David Valleskey, "The Church Growth Movement, Just Gathering People or Building the Church?" The Northwestern Lutheran, May 5, 1991, p. 184.

"So, what should the members of St. John evangelism committee do with [C. Peter Wagner's] Your Church Can Grow?...They can probably pick up a few helpful hints. They might, for example, appreciate research which provides an insight into the way unchurched people think." Prof. David Valleskey, "The Church Growth Movement, Just Gathering People or Building the Church?" The Northwestern Lutheran, May 5, 1991, p. 185. See Oct 15 NWL Jeb Schaefer editorial.

"There is a fourth option, which is the choice of this writer. It is the same kind of approach Lawrence Crabb, a Christian counselor, advocates over against the use of secular counseling resources. He calls it 'spoiling the Egyptians' (Exodus 12:36, KJV), after the action of Israel at the time they left Egypt, when they took from the Egyptians what would stand them in good stead on their journey." David J. Valleskey, "The Church Growth Movement: An Evaluation," Wisconsin Lutheran Quarterly, Spring, 1991 88, p. 115. Holidaysburg, Pa, 10-15-90. Exodus 12:36.

"Yet this writer is confident we won't go astray in adopting a 'spoiling the Egyptians' approach to the various Church Growth Movement sociological principles and the research that produced them."
David J. Valleskey, "The Church Growth Movement: An Evaluation," Wisconsin Lutheran Quarterly, Spring, 1991 88, p. 116. Exodus 12:36.

Jack Cascione, Jay Webber, and the Intrepids want to criticize Church Growth Enthusiasm while embracing UOJ. The two go together like popcorn and casual sects.

PS - Valleskey clearly disagreed with me about Church Growth, but he never obeyed the sacrosanct rule of sitting down, holding my hand, and telling me my sins. In fact, he was oddly flattering in his WLQ article about me. Behind my back he told others that the paper was written against a legalist in Ohio, me. But not a word of that appears in his conference paper, his journal article, or his conversation with me when I sat down at dinner with him. He almost ran away from me when I walked over to him to talk.

Publishing News: Martin Chemnitz Press

Lulu is bringing Jesus Priceless Treasure out as an e-book, making that the third one to be published in that format.

A new picture book for children is almost done. Norma Boeckler is the artist.

I am working on a new update of Luther versus the UOJ Pietists: Justification by Faith. Someone put a lot of time into spotting and correcting all those devious little things that get in the way of a good read. I really appreciate all the help I have received from many quarters.

A content revision in the future will include the startling material on the justification-by-faith catechisms produced by WELS and the LCMS. Somehow a great leader of the Synodical Conference failed to mention UOJ in his catechism!

Concordia Publishing House has Paul McCain, MDiv, writing PR releases for their books, but he never mentions the KJV-justification-by-faith catechism they are still selling.

WELS was smart - they buried Gausewitz with praise while replacing his excellent catechism with Kuske's UOJ baloney.

There were giants in the earth in the olden days, but they are thrown down the memory hole by the promoters of Enthusiasm.

Preuss, Hero of UOJ, Roman Catholic - We Are Justified Before We Are Born

"We are redeemed from the guilt of sin; the wrath of God is appeased; all creation is again under the bright rays of mercy, as in the beginning; yea, in Christ we were justified before we were even born. For do not the Scriptures say: ‘God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them?'’ This is not the justification which we receive by faith...That is the great absolution which took place in the resurrection of Christ. It was the Father, for our sake, who condemned His dear Son as the greatest of all sinners causing Him to suffer the greatest punishment of the transgressors, even so did He publicly absolve Him from the sins of the world when He raised Him up from the dead."
Edward Preuss, The Justification of a Sinner Before God, pp. 14-15.

Dr. Robert Preus quoted this passage when he advocated UOJ and Church Growth ran Concordia, Ft. Wayne Seminary. No one admits that this same Ed Preuss saw a brilliant sunset, which he imagined a sign from God, and became a Roman Catholic. He went from one Enthusiasm to another, just like the Ft. Wayne grads today who turn Eastern Orthodox or Roman Catholic.

Jack Cascione likes to quote the old essay but cannot come to terms with Robert Preus' Justification and Rome.

Jungkuntz - On Everyone in the World Forgiven

Here is more background on Jungkuntz, one of the most influential of the LCMS liberals.

One could argue that Seminex began at Northwestern College, Watertown, due to the leadership of Jungkuntz and Gehrke, who both ended up in proto-ELCA.

Kelm - On Using False Teachers To Make Enthusiasm Sound Good

"Thesis Seven: Sound Apologetics Can Make Sound Doctrine Sound Good...Logic never converted anyone; but Christianity is logically defensible, once one makes reason ministerial to God and His Word...Read C.S. Lewis, Francis Schaeffer and Josh McDowell for practical apologetic tools. In fact, lend your copy to the prospect whose intelligence and education have become his curse. Once you've read Josh McDowell's 'Lord, Liar, or Lunatic' argument for the deity of Christ, you'll find yourself using it."
Rev. Paul Kelm, "How to Make Sound Doctrine Sound Good to Mission Prospects," p. 14.

"Our synod now has a fulltime executive secretary for evangelism. He's the Rev. Paul Kelm; and we need him. We need him to be our evangelism advocate."
Rev. Ron Roth, The Evangelism Life Line (WELS), Winter, 1985 p. 2.

Knapp, Halle University - Promoted Double Justification

"This is very conveniently expressed by the terms objective and subjective justification. Objective justification is the act of God, by which he proffers pardon to all through Christ; subjective, is the act of man, by which he accepts the pardon freely offered in the Gospel. The former is universal, the latter not."

“His [Woods'] translation of Georg Christian Knapp's Christian Theology (1831-1833) was long used as a text-book in American theological seminaries.” http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Leonard_Woods

Larry Olson - WELS Professor - Learning from Sociologist McGavran

"Contemporary social and behavioral sciences are a working out of the reason which God has given to humanity. Granted, the assumptions of some sociologists or anthropologists may be inconsistent with the Christian faith. That calls for discernment, but it does not invalidate the proper use of the social sciences by the church; it is, however, essential that they be used in a 'ministerial' manner." Lawrence Otto Olson, D. Min., Fuller Seminary, "See How It Grows: Perspectives on Growth and the Church," EVANGELISM, February, 1991, Professor, Martin Luther College, (WELS), p. 3.

WELS First VP Huebner - The Word Needs Church Growth Insights To Be Effective

"We can't do a thing to make his Word more effective. But surely we can detract from its effectiveness by careless errors and poor judgment. It just makes good sense to utilize all of our God-given talents, to scour the field for appropriate ideas, concepts, and material (sic), to implement programs, methods, and techniques so that we do not detract from the effectiveness of the gospel we proclaim. Church growth articles, books, seminars, and conferences can offer such ideas and programs."
Pastor James Huebner, Spiritual Renewal Consultant, Notebook, School of Outreach IV, Seventeen Ways to Keep Your Church from Growing, p. 178.

Joplin Tornado Last Night - 50 Miles Away

This regional hospital was destroyed by the tornado. So was Joplin High School.

Rainbow after the tornado.

The first wave of storms passed by. Everything was calm again. Then the power went out for more than 8 hours.

Gary and Alicia Meyer sent us an emergency radio, which I quickly found. It has a hand-crank for power, in case there are no batteries or they wear out. Mrs. Ichabod got tired of turning the crank, so I dug up a box of AA batteries. We listened to Joplin news all night on three AA batteries.

LI's family went to their closet three times for the tornado siren. The second time two of the children brought their electronic games along. The third time everyone was too sleepy to do anything but wait. A tornado was spotted closer to them, along 412, which is south of Bentonville-Rogers.

We are on the NW corner of Arkansas, north of them. Not long ago we visited Carthage and Joplin, twin cities only 50 miles away from us.

The Joplin Walmart store on 15th street was destroyed, with loss of life. No one really knows the extent of the damage and loss of life in the area. I have heard estimates of 35 to 75% destruction of Joplin. One person said, "South Joplin was wiped off the map." The tornado grew in the town to more than a mile wide.

Walmart and other big retailers are gathering relief supplies and sending them to Joplin. Few people realize how quickly they use their logistical expertise to help out during disasters, before the government can mobilize.

Volunteers were heading to Joplin immediately after the tornado struck. One man said over the AM radio station, "I have a truck with water and other supplies. I'm coming in from the north. Where can I take it?"

We have been near tornadoes before, in New Ulm, Minnesota and Sturgis, Michigan. They were fast and relatively small, compared to the Joplin disaster. We take for granted how calm Creation is, until the big disasters strike.

We are now enduring another whole day of thunderstorms, with more tomorrow.

Thrivent Continues To Fund the Salvation Army and Habitat for Humanity

Thrivent Financial for Lutherans on solid ground financially

CEO discusses its philanthropic activities, state of company

8:21 AM, May. 23, 2011  |  

Comments

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Volunteers work on a Habitat for Humanity home Aug. 31 in Appleton. Thrivent Financial for Lutherans continues to play an important role in the Habitat program. / Wm. Glasheen/The Post-Crescent

Written by

Larry Avila

• Filed Under
• Business

Thrivent at a glance

What it does: A fraternal organization that provides financial and insurance services to 2.5 million members across the U.S.
Employees: Appleton 1,775 (includes operations center, Thrivent Bank, investment management and investor services; Minneapolis 1,153 (includes corporate headquarters and subsidiary operations)
Top executive: Brad Hewitt, president and chief executive officer
Assets under management: $$73.1 billion (end of 2010)
Website: www.thrivent.com

Related Links

The Post-Crescent's Buzz Blog: Post-Crescent staff writer Maureen Wallenfang blogs about the comings and goings in the Fox Valley business scene

APPLETON — There aren't many companies that can say its financial performance improved during the economic downturn.
Executives with Thrivent Financial for Lutherans say as the economy struggled, some of its core products including life insurance and annuities saw increased business as people sought ways to protect their long-term income.
Brad Hewitt, president and chief executive officer of Thrivent, recently was in Appleton for the company's annual report to the community.
Will Thrivent continue its commitment to the Salvation Army Red Kettle campaign in the Fox Cities?
Actually, for us, all of those community involvement activities, the Red Kettle campaign, Thrivent Builds for Habitat for Humanity, we've built those into strong brands. There really is no going back now.


As long as we continue to do well, it will continue. I just can't imagine it stopping. We're not looking at getting out of anything, especially based on our recent results.


Does this mean that Thrivent also will remain committed to its partnership with Habitat for Humanity?
What most people don't realize, we worked with Habitat long before the merger between Aid Association for Lutherans and Lutheran Brotherhood.



What we've done was package everything together into one brand and added funding to it to create consistency, so it wasn't just one church or one chapter involved, it was a Thrivent build.


The reason we discuss our involvement in the program every year is because we have to decide where the resources are needed.


How many houses will be built? Is there demand for more international builds? Is there interest in more domestic projects? Where does the interest fall with our members? What congregations are raising their hands because they want to do more with Habitat? This is what are annual review is about. We think we have a good brand here and we will keep doing it. It's a great success.


Similar to our Red Kettle campaign, which is only in the Fox Cities, if there are a bunch of chapters also doing work with the Salvation Army in their areas, if we could rebrand our Red Kettle campaign, maybe we could also do more with that through our chapters.


Thrivent Builds with Habitat for Humanity will be back next year. There are a lot of causes we participate in and our chapters love to do it. If you make things easier for the chapters to help people, everyone benefits. Everyone wins if you make things simple for people to execute.
Where do you think the company is heading in 2011?


So far, we're right on plan. Our focus is about the core business. Most mutual insurance companies, growth between 4 percent and 8 percent is kind of the sweet spot. It should be a good year. Our assets are up to $75 billion now and will reach $78 billion soon. We're just rolling right now.

Larry Olson, DMin, Fuller Seminary - Denying the Efficacy of the Word

"We cannot add anything to the Word, but we may be able to remove the human barriers which might be in the way of the Word."
Lawrence Otto Olson, D. Min., Fuller Seminary, "See How It Grows: Perspectives on Growth and the Church," EVANGELISM, February, 1991, Parish Consultant for the WELS Board of Parish Services and his district's Coordinator of Evangelism. p. 3.

"While I would not encourage it, it would not surprise me to see my name in some future writing of yours. If it does appear there, please use my given name, Lawrence."
Lawrence Otto Olson, D. Min., Fuller Seminary, "A Response to Gregory L. Jackson, Ph.D.," Christian News, 3-28-94, p. 23.

DP Buchholz Offers First Contribution In the Beyond Belief! False Doctrine Graphics Folder

"The forgiveness acquired by Jesus for all at the cross gives us confessional Lutherans, among all the church bodies of the world, the highest motivation to share our Savior. In contrast to the “Jesus Saves” churches, we don’t preach a salvation that is incomplete and just waiting for the sinner to do something to complete the transaction. We proclaim boldly, “Jesus Saved,” past tense, finished, certain."

Jon Buchholz, WELS Convention Essay, 2005.

***

GJ - The problem with this statement is its crypto-universalism, claiming that the whole world has been absolved/forgiven and that everyone is saved.

Some WELS Congregations Are So Bad That Even Babies Are Face-Palming

Daniel Baker has left a new comment on your post "Dour Rejoinder from AC V":

The "(sic)" keeps me on my toes too, albeit I hate to see myself produce inadequate spelling and grammar to begin with.

The real Ichaslang to add is "popcornite," if I do say so myself.

***

GJ - Popcornite is being added to the Icha-slang lexicon, with some other suggestions, including Ichawidow and Ichapeek.

WELS Appleton Photo Gallery - Publicly Displayed for Everyone on Facebook

---

Jimmy James has left a new comment on your post "Narcissicism Alert":

OK. I need some explainin' here.

Are the photos of "Pastor Tim" Photoshopped? Or is he actually taking photos with such swine as Katy "I Kissed a Girl" Perry and the nasty, vulgar "Black Eyed Peas"?

I mean....my dad would have been fired from his pastoral position for having a beer in a local tavern. So I sure can't imagine him getting photographed with Black Sabbath or Queen! (Let's just say the 70's rock star equivalency of whom Pastor Tim was seen commiserating....)

***


GJ - These are some of the photos, exactly as they were published, mostly on Facebook. Ski's pilgrimage to the Drive Worship Conference included the photo with Andy Stanley, the Babtist, and Ski's admitted worship with them. Ski's blog remained published after I linked it - he just took the link away.

I imagine there is a lot more underground publishing going on among Church and Changers, plus secret list-serves or email lists. I know others do that, because they have told me.

A blog can be limited in viewing to certain people, using specified email addresses. A website can have a log-in.

I simply publish what I think should be known, and everyone it is my work.

"Our Sect Will Never Crumble the Way ELCA Is Crumbling,"They Dream.

Greenfield church bolts ELCA over gay clergy issue

Others may follow, but at least 3 will stay with ELCA

11:38 PM, May. 19, 2011  |  

349 Comments

Pastor Larry Gember watched St. James Lutheran Church member Harry Morgan use a claw hammer to remove the initials ELCA from the front of the church's exterior Wednesday. / Rob Goebel / The Star

Bill McCleery

North American Lutheran Church

» History: Founded Aug. 27, 2010, at a conference in Ohio, by Lutherans upset over the liberalizing of the church, particularly on issues of homosexuality.

» Membership: More than 207 congregations have voted to join the North American Lutheran Church since August.

» Headquarters: Hilliard, Ohio.

» Beliefs: "We believe that the mission of the church is to preach the Gospel and to make disciples for Christ. We believe that making disciples in our congregations, in our communities and nations, and around the world must be a priority of the church in the present age."

» Leadership: The Rev. Paull Spring, bishop; the Rev. John Bradosky, general secretary; the Rev. Larry Gember, Greenfield, Indiana regional dean.

Evangelical Lutheran Church in America

» History: Formed from The American Lutheran Church, The Association of Evangelical Lutheran Churches and The Lutheran Church in America on Jan. 1, 1988.

» Membership: 4.8 million members and about 10,500 congregations across the U.S. and the Caribbean.

» Headquarters: Chicago.

» Beliefs: "The ELCA is a community of faith that shares a passion for making positive changes in the world. Our faith is built around a strong belief in God as made known to us in Jesus Christ. Through worship, service and education, we practice our faith, grow our relationship with God and experience God's grace in our lives."

» Leadership: The Rev. Mark Hanson, presiding bishop; the Rev. Bill Gafkjen, bishop, Indiana-Kentucky Synod.

-- Compiled by Star library

GREENFIELD, Ind. -- A Hancock County church has become the first in the Indianapolis area to leave the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America over the issue of allowing clergy who are openly gay.

Others might soon follow suit, but two Hamilton County congregations and another in Indianapolis have decided to stay with the denomination. A Noblesville church plans a vote in July.

The trend reflects the controversy sparked nationwide among churches when, in 2009, the Evangelical group decided to allow openly gay men and women to serve as ordained clergy at its affiliate churches. For orthodox theologians such as Larry Gember, pastor of St. James Lutheran Church in Greenfield, the decision went a step too far.

"The primary issue is not sexuality," Gember, 59, said Wednesday. "It's that the authority of Scripture is being undermined."

Gember's congregation voted April 10 to sever ties with the ELCA, and the church is holding a "Celebration of Unity" at noon Sunday. The idea, Gember said, is to move past the divisiveness.

A few dozen members left, Gember said -- many relocating to another Lutheran church in nearby New Palestine that remains affiliated with the ELCA.

Gember's church is now affiliated with the North American Lutheran Church, which formed in August in response to the Evangelical group's 2009 decision and a general sense that it was becoming too liberal.
Statewide, at least 14 Indiana congregations have affiliated with the NALC since the 2009 decision on gay clergy. Some of them are start-up churches composed of Lutherans who previously attended ELCA churches.

Even churches that have remained with the ELCA have experienced disunity over the issue.

In Indianapolis, the Cross and Crown Lutheran Church congregation voted in January 2010 to remain with the ELCA. It lost more than 200 members, who left in response to the vote's outcome. The pastor was among those who left, helping form another church called Spirit of Joy.

The interim pastor now serving the Cross and Crown congregation said she strongly supports the ELCA's acceptance of gay and lesbian pastors.

"There are people with fine gifts for ministry, and I don't think the church should exclude them just because of their sexuality," said Karen Husby, 59, who has served the congregation since June. "With the ELCA, everyone is welcome at the table, and Jesus Christ is at the center of that table."

The turmoil over the issue has been a difficult chapter in the Lutheran experience, said Bill Gafkjen, bishop of the ELCA's Indiana-Kentucky Synod.

"The real issue is, can we be a church that disagrees about things like that and still work together in mission?" Gafkjen said. "How is it we live together fruitfully and faithfully with serious differences and find our common mission as members to bear witness to . . . the crucified and risen Christ?"

He emphasized that any gay clergy would be expected to be, if not celibate, faithful within the context of a committed lifetime partnership -- just as a heterosexual minister would be expected to be either celibate or faithful within marriage.

"This is not about promiscuity," he said. "There is accountability."

King of Glory Lutheran Church in Carmel has also decided to stay with the ELCA, though church leaders held numerous forums and meetings with the congregation rather than put it to a vote.

"Bringing this issue to a vote is to say this vote is God's will," said Paul Swartz, senior pastor. "A majority vote does not determine the word of God."

Christ the Savior Lutheran Church in Fishers voted in November to remain with the ELCA, even though more than half the voters wanted to break their allegiances with the group.

Fifty-three percent voted to leave, while 47 percent voted to stay, said senior and founding Pastor Joe Freeman. The anti-ELCA group was just shy of the two-thirds majority needed to leave.

"It's been a painful journey for the congregation and denomination, but it's been a defining feature and we are moving forward with the mission of the ministry," he said.

In Noblesville, the pastor of Bethel Lutheran Church is encouraging his flock to leave the ELCA when the issue comes up for a vote July 17.

"I just want us to stay biblically centered and theologically grounded in the traditional orthodox style," said Pastor Doug Gast, 60. "I believe our (ELCA) hierarchy has kind of lost the grounding in the authority of Scripture."

A member of the Indianapolis gay community who studies theological issues said too many Christians regard gay relationships as representing a cardinal sin.

"If you're gay, God made you that way," said Steven Giovangelo, 63, who lives in the Irvington neighborhood. "And God does not say you're evil or wrong because of that."

However the Lutheran debate unfolds, it is nothing new, said Carol Johnston, a theology professor at the Christian Theological Seminary in Indianapolis.

"These kinds of disputes about what Scripture means and how it is interpreted in a changing culture are actually in the New Testament itself," Johnston said. "This was going on since the very beginning of the church."

In addition to the conflict among Lutherans, the Greenfield pastor leading the move to break away from the ELCA has experienced his own internal turmoil, he said. Both his brother and best friend, Gember said, are gay.

Gember has spent time in gay bars and at gay events, he said, and for years during the 1980s and 1990s advocated for more liberal church policies toward homosexuality.

"Gay people are welcome in my church," he said.

---
 ALPB Online, George Erdner

Between Zion Lutheran and these three from Pastor Barnhart's blog:

1. ST. JOHN LUTHERAN CHURCH, STARBUCK, MN unanimously passed second vote to leave the ELCA.

2. FRANKLIN LUTHERAN CHURCH (SOLDIER'S GROVE) VIROQUA, WI passed second vote to leave the ELCA, 38-19. LCMC

3. HOPE LUTHERAN CHURCH, LADYSMITH, WI passed first vote to leave the ELCA, 113-21.

4. SALEM LUTHERAN CHURCH, SALISBURY, NC passed second vote to leave the ELCA 199-14. Joining NALC and LCMC.

We now have 500 Congregations that have left the ELCA.

Pessimists who can only see the negative and darkness might mourn about this. ECLA "company men" will attempt to diminish this as unimportant. But those of us who are positive and optimistic about the renewal of mission that accompanies a new beginning for a congregation as it affiliates with a new denomination will rejoice in this milestone as a significant event worthy of prayers of thanksgiving.