Saturday, October 27, 2012

A Goose for Reformation Sunday:
Don't Tase Me, Bro

Huss means goose in Czech, which is why the pun is used,
"You are roasting a goose..."
Huss is also spelled Hus.


James Swan has left a new comment on your post "Beggars All: Reformation And Apologetics: John Hus...":

GJ - I thought the last sentence in the blog above was a bit dopey, but I left it in.

Hi there- Thanks for linking to my old blog entry. The reason why I ended my entry stating "Even Luther produced a botched quote, and did so to promote himself" is:

I've spent many years looking up obscure Martin Luther quotes (and putting them back in their proper contexts), particularly those put forth by Romanists. I've been accused many times by Romanists of whitewashing Luther or explaining away anything negative about him. On the other hand, I've demonstrated time and again that many folks, particularly Romanists, don't bother reading Luther in context, and are not doing a good job with history. Some Romanists are prone to botching quotes, usually without apology, even when corrected.

This particular entry that you've re-posted demonstrated that such charges against my blog entries are not true. I'll follow history wherever it leads.

Regards,

James

***

GJ - James, I appreciated your post, which is why I mccained it. You put together a lot of facts, and that is good, because Huss began the Reformation.

Luther did so "to promote himself" is a stretch of logic. Identifying with Huss kept him in peril for many years, so it was not a PR move at all. There are plenty of opinions based on the facts. I simply disagreed with your opinion.

This statue was the center of protests against the Communists.

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Three Comments from Sola Fide

WELS gave Dr. Moo (Wheaton College) a helping hand.
They are used to udder disasters.


solafide (http://solafide.myopenid.com/) has left a new comment on your post "Hilarious WELS NNIV Comments. Should Be Called the...":

"The five weakest passages in this section of the NIV11
D 1) Ro 3:27 “Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith.”

With the 2011 edition the NIV no longer uses “principle” as its translation of νόμος in this verse. The reader instead is allowed to appreciate how Paul is playing on that word νόμος. Due to our usual understanding of “law,” however, one wonders how many readers will discern the point the apostle is making. In addition, rendering νόμος πίστεως as “the law that requires faith” implies that believing the Gospel is the one deed that God demands. “All you have to do is believe” is not a Scriptural doctrine, however.

Romans 3:24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.
By repeating “all” from the previous clause, the NIV11 makes universal / objective justification more clear in this context than the ESV which does not restate the subject for the second verb and the HCSB which opts for “They are justified….” Here the NIV11 has the simplest exegetical-doctrinal solution."

SF: Someone is letting their real agenda slip out! Here is the relevant section of the former post I made, containing a quote directly from a WELS Professor:

This is from a WELS Professor, who will remain nameless for his own protection:
"the "all" in Ro 3:23 is not all people, believers and unbelievers alike, but all the believers who were just mentioned in verse 22."

Here is an expansion on the quote, again from unnamed Professor:

"I would offer the following expanded translation, in which I add the parenthetical phrases that seem to me to bring out the continuity in the line of thought: "But now apart from law a righteousness from God has been revealed, (a righteousness) attested by the Law and the prophets, but (it is) a righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ (that pertains) to all the believers (not just the Gentile believers). For there is no difference (between Jewish believers and Gentile believers), for they all (i.e., all the believers) sinned and come short of the glory of God, (and thus they, the believers, all are) being justified as a gift (i.e., they don't merit a pronouncement of righteous status by their own good behavior), by his grace..." Paul quickly proceeds to highlight faith again in the very next verse. Some pastors will not like this exegesis because it robs them of an explicit assertion that all human beings have sinned and gives them instead an assertion that all believers have sinned. I would reply 1) exegesis should pay more attention to the line of thought in context and not put into Paul's mouth the kind of statements we would like him to make. and 2) on my reading of the passage (and Stoeckhardt's) we still have an implication that all people have sinned, since it would be hard to explain how there would be some sinless unbelievers if all believers have sinned."

So, who is wrong, this WELS professor or the anonymous Romans 3:24 translator (NNIV pusher)?

No word from The Love Shack.

---

solafide (http://solafide.myopenid.com/) has left a new comment on your post "WELS NNIV Promotion Continues. Brett Meyer Answers...":

I've never seen such a stacked deck in my life. Only 74% in Group 2 chose the NNIV? Guess that's where the WELS will be looking next to see who gets the jackboots of fellowship.

---

The previous DP eviscerated the NNIV at the convention.
I listened, knowing he was retiring soon.
Does Kudu Don Patterson support the NNIV?
He is a Church and Change leader.


solafide (http://solafide.myopenid.com/) has left a new comment on your post "Ye Watchers and Ye Unholy Ones. Gibbs: "Always Wat...":

Group #1 – Synod workers (aka Holy Professors that thou shall not question) - pushed the NNIV almost unanimously (over 9/10)

Group # 2 – Translation workshop participants - Had only a 3/4 majority for the NNIV

Group #3 – Younger pastors - 4/5 majority for the NNIV

[GJ - Original vote at the conventions - only 16% for the NNIV]


So, we see where the push for this NNIV is coming from.

I can probably pick out the names from Group 1 that didn't like the NNIV. You can count them on 1 hand. 

Evil fruit comes from a corrupt tree.

---


Intrepid ISSUES WITH NIV 2011

"Church and Continuity" Conference Review: Rev. Koester on Gender Neutral Translating
Jun 5, 2012
NIV Translation Posts Compiled
Jan 6, 2012
ELS doctrine committee recommends against NIV 2011
Dec 7, 2011
The LORD (no longer) Our Righteousness in NIV 2011
Nov 30, 2011
"Relevance," and Mockery of the Holy Martyrs
Nov 30, 2011
The Gender Gutting of the Bible in NIV 2011
Nov 28, 2011
On "Emasculated Bibles" and being "Objective"
Nov 15, 2011
The Case of the Disappearing "Testament:" Modern Bible Translations and Covenantal Theology
Oct 15, 2011
Thoughts on Gender-Neutral Language in the NIV 2011
Sep 15, 2011
Post-Modernism, Pop-culture, Transcendence, and the Church Militant
Sep 13, 2011
"The saints" are no more
Aug 15, 2011
The NIV 2011 and the Importance of Translation Ideology
Aug 02, 2011
The NNIV, the WELS Translation Evaluation Committee, and the Perspicuity of the Scriptures
July 28, 2011
NIV 2011: A brotherly debate
July 27, 2011
NNIV - the new standard for WELS?
July 15, 2011
Anti-Semitic Sensitivity in the New NIV
December 15, 2010
NIV 2011 comparison with NIV 1984 and TNIV
(links to slowley.com)
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Breaking News - Otten Celebrates Pastor Paul Rydecki's
Defenestration in The CN Reformation Issue.
Steals My Pope Otten Graphic


The October 29, 2012 issue of Christian News came today. Pastor Otten must be a regular reader of Ichabod, because he borrowed my graphic, above, for the back page - in color!

He is still promoting the book by the Antichrist - The "Facts" about Luther. Beside the anti-Luther book cover graphic is Catholic, Lutheran, Protestant - a work strangely missing from the Reformation promotion last week.

He got rid of eight California-Arizona pastors,  so Church and Change wanted him for Synod President.
Buchholz has chopped two pastors  already.
"The hills are alive with the sound of axes."


The front page has two articles, by Mad Jack Cascione and Mark Bartling, both rejoicing over the District Pope's tyrannical removal of Pastor Paul Rydecki. Apparently the congregation was so unimpressed by Buchholz that they voted to leave WELS pronto.

David Becker wrote about this congregation leaving WELS, for Otten, and sent me a copy, in plenty of time for this CN issue, but I did not see Becker's article.

A current WELS pastor told me that Buchholz' bullying has done except cause confusion and scare pastors into silence. No one can discuss UOJ now - out of fear.


Rome says, "Why not have one Pope instead of many little
popes?"
I ask, "Why not NO POPES."

---

raklatt (http://raklatt.myopenid.com/) has left a new comment on your post "Breaking News - Otten Celebrates Pastor Paul Rydec...":

Proverbs 17:13:

Whoso rewardeth evil for good, evil shall not depart from his house.

---

Brett Meyer has left a new comment on your post "Breaking News - Otten Celebrates Pastor Paul Rydec...":

--- On Sun, 11/23/08
To: cnnewsandinfo@yahoo.com
Date: Sunday, November 23, 2008, 10:39 PM
name = Brett Meyer
email = brett.meyer
comments = Question for Pastor Otten. Do you confess and teach that the
doctrine of Universal Objective Justification as taught by the LCMS, ELS and
WELS is faithful to Scripture and the Lutheran Confessions?

Thank you in advance for your response,
In Christ,
Brett Meyer

From: Christian News [mailto:cnnewsandinfo@yahoo.com]
Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 11:34 AM
To: brett.meyer
Subject: Re: Justification

Dear Mr. Meyer,
Yes. See the chapter on justification in my Baal or God published in1965. CN has also published many articles on justification. See the index of each volume of Christian News and the index in Vol. V of the Christian News Encyclopedia.

God's richest blessings,
Herman Otten

Pastor Otten's confession of the false gospel of UOJ is contained in his book Baal or God here:
Baal or God, page 25

"Because of the redemption through Christ God no longer imputes sins to men (2 Corinthians 5:19); He does not charge their transgressions against them, but credits them with the merits of Christ.

For the sake of Christ's complete satisfaction God "justifies the ungodly" (Romans 4:5), i.e., they who by nature and by their own works were altogether ungodly, were because of the work of Christ declared and pronounced just and righteous.

God's declaration of forgiveness calls for acceptance on the part of man.

Thus the reconciliation of the whole world by Christ and the forgiveness of all sins of all men is an accomplished fact,……….

….trusts in God, who for Christ's sake declares all the ungodly just….

These are just some of the tenets of the false and heretical gospel of Universal Objective Justification or General Justification as (W)ELS most prominent Antichrist prefers to title it.

If these teachings in any way teach contrary to Scripture and the Lutheran Confessions then they are neither Christian nor Lutheran.

Pastor Otten, "Because of the redemption through Christ God no longer imputes sins to men (2 Corinthians 5:19); He does not charge their transgressions against them, but credits them with the merits of Christ."

Christ declares in John 8:24, "I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins."

So much for God no longer imputes sins to men. Otten is teaching a false gospel.

Pastor Otten, "For the sake of Christ's complete satisfaction God "justifies the ungodly" (Romans 4:5), i.e., they who by nature and by their own works were altogether ungodly, were because of the work of Christ declared and pronounced just and righteous."

The Lutheran Confessions, 

 "71] but we maintain this, that properly and truly, by faith itself, we are for Christ's sake accounted righteous, or are acceptable to God. And because "to be justified" means that out of unjust men just men are made, or born again, it means also that they are pronounced or accounted just. For Scripture speaks in both ways. [The term "to be justified" is used in two ways: to denote, being converted or regenerated; again, being accounted righteous. Accordingly we wish first to show this, that faith alone makes of an unjust, a just man, i.e., receives remission of sins". http://www.bookofconcord.org/defense_4_justification.php

Note that according to the Lutheran Confessions faith in Christ alone makes an unjust man a justified man.

Also note that the Christian Book of Concord only acknowledges two Scriptural uses of the word Justification: 1) being converted or regenerated and 2) being accounted righteous and only the Holy Spirit's gracious working of faith makes of an unjest man a just man who's sins are remitted.

Pastor Otten, as an unfaithful teacher, makes a confession that is contrary to the Lutheran Confessions and an abomination to Christ and His Church.
This is not true, but how would anyone know with the original materials disappearing
and the Groeschel lunk-heads unable to read German?

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Ripped from the Pages of the New York Post


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Ye Watchers and Ye Unholy Ones.
Gibbs: "Always Watch the Watchers."

They burn Tyndale anew every time they turn against faithful translation.

Brett Meyer has left a new comment on your post "WELS NNIV Promotion Continues. Brett Meyer Answers...":

[GJ - I added information in giant print.]

Those who submitted reviews in Group #1 were (91% chose the NNIV as the best translation):
Daniel Balge
Forrest Bivens - Fuller alumnus.
John Boeder
John Braun
Jon Buchholz - Church and Change's biggest pal.
Kenneth Cherney
Charles Degner
Brian Dose
Douglas Engelbrecht - Tim Glende's finger-puppet DP.
Harland Goetzinger
David Gosdeck
John Hartwig
Michael Hintz
James Huebner - Fuller Alumnus. Mocks the Word.
Daniel Koelpin
Paul Koelpin
Thomas Nass
Larry Olson - Fuller DMin - Women Ministers galore
Mark Paustian
Joel Petermann
Herbert Prahl
Paul Prange
John Schmidt
Jeffrey Schone
Raymond Schumacher
Michael Smith (ELS)
Allen Sorum - Don't get me started. 
Ross Stelljes
Bill Tackmier
Joel Voss - Packers fan.
Paul Wendland - Chief NNIV Salesperson.
Keith Wessel
Paul Zell
Carl Ziemer

Those who submitted reviews in Group #2 were (74% chose the NNIV as the best translation):
:
Steven Bode
Brett Brauer
John Brug - Ordain women now!
Frederick Casmer
David Clark
Justin Cloute
Mark Cordes
Joel Fredrich - Defended errors of the NIV.
Matthew Frey
Joel Heckendorf
Roy Hefti
Charles Huebner
Curtis Jahn
Paul Janke - DP raised the bar for Left Foot of Fellowship
Michael Jensen
Thomas Jeske -  Mark and Avoid's brother.
Brian Keller
Geoffrey Kieta
Thomas Kock
John Koelpin
Daniel Leyrer
Robert Meiselwitz
Joel Nitz
Jonathan Scharf
Mark Schewe
Eric Schroeder
John Schroeder
Jonathan Schroeder
Glenn Schwanke
John Seifert - CG enabler.
Earle Treptow
John Vieths
Daniel Witte
Paul Workentine

Those who submitted reviews in Group #3 were (82% chose the NNIV as the best translation):
:
Shaun Arndt
Jonathan Bergemann
John Bortulin
Nathan Buege
Geoffrey Cortright
Aaron Dolan
Kevin Draper
Thomas Engelbrecht
Nathan Ericson
James Grabitske
Jeremiah Gumm
Robert Guenther
Steven Hahm
Noah Headrick
Steven Hillmer
Paul Jansen
Shane Krause
Mark Luetzow
Jeremy Mattek
Stephen Meyer
Michael Novotny
Jason Oakland
David Panitzke
David Rosenau
David Salinas
Benjamin Schaefer
Peter Sulzle
Nathan Sutton
Benjamin Tomczak
Korey VanKampen
James Werner
Timothy Westendorf
David Wietzke
Ryan Wolfe

WELS watcher.
---

Brett Meyer has left a new comment on your post "Ye Watchers and Ye Unholy Ones. Gibbs: "Always Wat...":

I recommend reading the comments from some of the reviewers regarding the projects review criteria.
http://www.wels.net/sites/wels/files/Reviewers%20Comments%20Translation%20Criteria.pdf

 One in particular pointed out the reason why Luther's translation, from which the KJV is taken, is superior to the other viable options (BM - blasphemies) proposed by the (W)ELS apostates.

 4) In points 2 and 4 of your evaluation criteria, you mention Luther. Ernst R. Wendland’s paper is often cited in this connection: “Martin Luther—The Father of Confessional, Functional-Equivalence Translation.” (1995) I carefully study Luther’s German translation (along with Hebrew, Greek, Septuagint, and sundry other English translations) as a regular part of my sermon and Bible class preparation. A tool like Bibleworks 9 makes this simple. I sense that the “father” of the dynamic equivalent model wouldn’t recognize some of his purported “sons” or “children.” Luther’s gift in translating was in giving the German people a fluent, German Bible--that’s certainly true. But when I compare his translation with the current crop of English ones, I find that Luther often stays much closer to the original text. He preserves many more of the idioms and phrases of the original language. (His translation of “Same,” “seed,” comes to mind.) If “formal equivalent” is on the left-end of our scale, and “dynamic equivalent” is on the right-end, Luther stays somewhat further to the left, when compared to the NIV 2011 and the HCSB. It seems to me that the “dynamic equivalent model,” as it is currently used, tends to be somewhat more subjective in nature. Comparing Luther to the NIV 2011 or HCSB is a bit like comparing apples and oranges, in particular because Luther was a “Confessional” translator, first and foremost. We simply can’t say the same about the CBT or the HCSB translators. Can we? 

 ---

 California wrote:

 There is an Ichabod posting today re: Hilarious WELS  NNIV comments.   

 One observation contained in it is:  "They had the young guys, worried about future calls, review the NNIV anonymously.  How quaint." 

 Reminds me of the days when the abandonment of the KJV was the objective for just any alternative.  That was before  WELS finally settled on the NIV.   Some seminary course notes someone gave me from that long ago time,  seminary students had the assignment to investigate different translations with the unmistakable objective being to come to a conclusion that KJV must go in favor of some yet undetermined contemporary translation.  The diaprax was alive and well even way back then.  Involving the youngest stakeholders in the process, is the means intended to insure the desired outcome facilitated by professors, mentors, and seasoned change agents.   Had the "youngers" not been manipulated into taking the already designated outcome, it would allow a lesser trauma to reverse a managed youthful position when or if there were an informed change of mind.

 ---

intrepid ISSUES WITH NIV 2011

"Church and Continuity" Conference Review: Rev. Koester on Gender Neutral Translating
Jun 5, 2012
NIV Translation Posts Compiled
Jan 6, 2012
ELS doctrine committee recommends against NIV 2011
Dec 7, 2011
The LORD (no longer) Our Righteousness in NIV 2011
Nov 30, 2011
"Relevance," and Mockery of the Holy Martyrs
Nov 30, 2011
The Gender Gutting of the Bible in NIV 2011
Nov 28, 2011
On "Emasculated Bibles" and being "Objective"
Nov 15, 2011
The Case of the Disappearing "Testament:" Modern Bible Translations and Covenantal Theology
Oct 15, 2011
Thoughts on Gender-Neutral Language in the NIV 2011
Sep 15, 2011
Post-Modernism, Pop-culture, Transcendence, and the Church Militant
Sep 13, 2011
"The saints" are no more
Aug 15, 2011
The NIV 2011 and the Importance of Translation Ideology
Aug 02, 2011
The NNIV, the WELS Translation Evaluation Committee, and the Perspicuity of the Scriptures
July 28, 2011
NIV 2011: A brotherly debate
July 27, 2011
NNIV - the new standard for WELS?
July 15, 2011
Anti-Semitic Sensitivity in the New NIV
December 15, 2010
NIV 2011 comparison with NIV 1984 and TNIV
(links to slowley.com)
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Beggars All: Reformation And Apologetics: John Hus: They will roast a goose now (for ‘Huss’ means ‘a goose’), but after a hundred years they will hear a swan sing, and him they will endure



Beggars All: Reformation And Apologetics: John Hus: They will roast a goose now (for ‘Huss’ means ‘a goose’), but after a hundred years they will hear a swan sing, and him they will endure:


WEDNESDAY, MARCH 03, 2010


John Hus: They will roast a goose now (for ‘Huss’ means ‘a goose’), but after a hundred years they will hear a swan sing, and him they will endure

Listen to this article. Powered by Odiogo.com


Here's a typical account of the last moments of John Hus, before being burned by the Roman Catholic Council of Constance:

On July 6, 1415, as John Hus (whose name means "goose" in his native Czech) made his way to the place of execution, the authorities made him pass by a bonfire where his books were burning. Hus was unafraid and predicted the Protestant Reformation with almost uncanny accuracy. Some of his last words were: You are going to burn a goose but in a century you will have a swan which you can neither roast nor boil. [source]

This "Swan" of this statement has popularly been interpreted to be Martin Luther, not to mention, even by Luther himself:

However, I, Dr. Martinus, have been called to this work and was compelled to become a doctor, without any initiative of my own, but out of pure obedience. Then I had to accept the office of doctor and swear a vow to my most beloved Holy Scriptures that I would preach and teach them faithfully and purely. While engaged in this kind of teaching, the papacy crossed my path and wanted to hinder me in it. How it has fared is obvious to all, and it will fare still worse. It shall not hinder me. In God’s name and call I shall walk on the lion and the adder, and tread on the young lion and dragon with my feet. And this which has been begun during my lifetime will be completed after my death. St. John Huss prophesied of me when he wrote from his prison in Bohemia, “They will roast a goose now (for ‘Huss’ means ‘a goose’), but after a hundred years they will hear a swan sing, and him they will endure.” And that is the way it will be, if God wills. [LW 34:103]

I hadn't really thought much of the statement from Hus, other than the irony that indeed, a century later a lone monk began the Protestant Reformation. It's a popular quote. In my mind coincidence, nothing more. While reading in another area, I came across an article by Robert Scribner, Incombustible Luther: The Image of the Reformer in Early Modern Germany. Google Books offers a limited preview of this article with some missing pages, so I went ahead and ordered the book.

This is an incredibly interesting article. It documents the way that many turned Luther into a saint after his death. Stories circulated that paintings of him refused to burn. Luther's special saint miracle was hisincombustibility. The picture above in this entry is said to be a painting from 1689 that refused to burn, though it isn't certain. It's indeed the stuff of legends and fantasy. If you get a chance, read through Scribner's article, or at least what Google Books makes available. Note the similarities between the Luther myth and the typical Romanist saint myths.

Scribner's article takes an interesting look at a variety of the Luther legends, even those attributed to him while still living. Among those he covers is the quote from Hus:


A truly interesting find. Even Luther produced a botched quote, and did so to promote himself.

***
GJ - I thought the last sentence in the blog above was a bit dopey, but I left it in. The swan quotation is factually true, because Luther was accused of being a Hussite 102 years later. He studied the matter and agreed that he was indeed a Hussite (not a papist). For that reason Luther was still a man who deserved to be burned at the stake 13 years later, during the Diet of Augsburg. If anyone thinks that all the quotations floating around can be verified, syllable by syllable, with the right attribution - dream on. 


'via Blog this'

The Council of Constance burned Hus at the stake.


They do not put up statues to honor those who lit the fires.

Rating
2 votes
A colossal memorial on the Old Town Square commemorates Jan Hus, a 14th century religious reformer who challenged the opulence and corruption of the catholic church. The monument has become a symbol of Czech independence.
Statue of Jan Hus
Jan Hus

Jan Hus

Jan Hus, born in 1369, was a protestant reformer who condemned the indulgence and corruption of the catholic church and the Vatican in particular. When the popularity of Hus gained strength, the catholic church excommunicated him. Hus wanted to defend his position at the Council of Constance but despite a letter of safe conduct from the emperor, he was imprisoned and declared a heretic. The following year, in 1415, he was burned at the stake.

Once news of his death reached Prague, people were indignated by the execution and considered it an attack on the nation. The followers of Jan Hus - known as Hussites - started to revolt and destroyed monasteries and churches. Pope Martin V called on the catholics in other countries to wage a war against the hussites, starting a long war between protestant hussites and catholic crusaders.

Creation

Jan Hus Monument, Prague
The memorial honoring Jan Hus was the lifework of Czech sculptor Ladislav Šaloun, an autodidact who was inspired by the French sculptor Auguste Rodin. Šaloun started working on the sculpture in 1903, and the influence of the then-popular Jugendstil art movement is clearly visible.

Jan Hus Monument
The monument was unveiled in 1915, on the 500th anniversary of the death of the reformer. At the time Prague was under Austrian rule, and the Habsburgs refused to officially inaugurate the monument. Locals covered the monument with flowers in protest. Ever since, it has been a symbol of opposition against foreign rule.

The Monument

Jan Hus Monument
A tall statue, rising high above a massive platform, shows the authoritative figure of Jan Hus. To his left are victorious Hussite troops, to his right are the oppressed protestants who were banished two hundred years later. The figure of a young mother symbolizes the resurgence of Czech nationalism.

An inscription on the base quotes the will of one of the followers of Hus, and contains a famous quote from Hus: 'Pravda Vitězí', meaning Truth Prevails. It is now an official motto, written on the banner of the President of the Czech Republic. The quote from Hus is even recognized as an official national symbol.

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