     George Mueller (Mueller) Senior Member Username: Mueller Post Number: 1421 Registered: 11-2012 |
Here is the front page of the Augustana Ministerium website. Look at the names and compare them to the membership in the Evangelical Lutheran Diocese of North America. Now that ELDoNA has emphatically broken with the unanimous consensus among confessional Lutherans in America on objective justification, it is time for true Lutherans to do with respect to ELDoNA what ELDoNA has done with respect to them: MARK and AVOID. The Bible teaches objective justification. Deniers of this precious truth have been shown from Scripture again and again that God, for the sake of the vicarious satisfaction of Jesus, has forgiven the sin of the entire human race and justified this whole world of sinners. (John 1:29; Romans 4:5,25; 5:19; 2 Corinthians 5:19; etc.) Faith can trust no other gospel than a true gospel. If it is not true before faith believes it, faith cannot believe it. What a vicious error this is! It is inconceivable that an Evangelical Lutheran who has given any thought to this matter would want to express fellowship with deniers of objective justification. This isn’t a debate about terms. Anyone who has read ELDoNA’s official statement and the response of the ACLC and ELDoNA’s response to the ACLC can see that we are dealing with the cardinal teaching of the Christian religion here, and ELDoNA is wrong, promoting false teaching. Confessional Lutherans in the Missouri Synod that are presently bound to the ELDoNA through the Augustana Ministerium (which is dominated by ELDoNA) should either persuade ELDoNA to leave the Augustana Ministerium or they should leave it themselves and begin a new organization that will not tolerate such false teaching as ELDoNA promotes. To work together in common churchly endeavors with purveyors of such soul destroying doctrine is sinful unionism. Debates about church and ministry pale in comparison with ELDoNA’s error on justification. Will confessional Lutherans presently associated with the Augustana Ministerium take a public stand against the false doctrine of ELDoNA? Or will they, by their silent acquiescence, encourage these manifestly impenitent errorists to continue dividing the flock and leading precious souls into doubt through their false teaching on the article on which the church stands or falls? | ||
| Timothy Christian Schenks (Tschenks) Advanced Member Username: Tschenks Post Number: 924 Registered: 3-2006 |
For the last few years, Augustana Ministerium has been primarily supporting LCMS pastors who have been unscripturally removed from their Call, as the Missouri Synod's own ministerium fails to do so. Do you know of any ELDoNA pastors who have been unscripturally removed from their Call? | ||
| Helen E. Jensen (Helen) Senior Member Username: Helen Post Number: 6822 Registered: 7-2004 |
Better yet, do you know of any LCMS organization that is helping men un-Scripturally removed from their calls? Nah. "They must have done something wrong!" [Like preach according to their ordination vows.] "So we'll pass by on the other side... and hope it isn't us, next!" [Mueller, someone implied the other day that you were not LCMS. Right or wrong? If not, what? ULMA?] | ||
| Rick Strickert (Carlvehse) Senior Member Username: Carlvehse Post Number: 4663 Registered: 10-2003 |
Better yet, do you know of any LCMS organization that is helping men un-Scripturally removed from their calls? The organization specified by the LCMS bylaws to help rostered members who are unScripturally removed from their calls is identified as... the District President. Ask former called teacher Cheryl Perich how that worked out for her. | ||
| George Mueller (Mueller) Senior Member Username: Mueller Post Number: 1422 Registered: 11-2012 |
Timothy, I don't know if any ELDoNA pastors have been unscripturally removed from their calls, but I do know it has nothing to do with the topic of this thread. Do you believe that ELDoNA should be marked and avoided by all faithful Lutherans and that the orthodox Lutherans associated with the Augustana Ministerium should either see to it that ELDoNA is excluded from the organization or they should leave it and form a different organization that will not work together with deniers of objective justification? Helen, I assume that you care about the gospel. Objective justification is the gospel. Do you then agree with me that all of us should mark and avoid the ELDoNA? The ELDoNA has been attacking the pure gospel for many months now. It is time for the faithful to mark and avoid these wolves. | ||
| Jojakim Dettmann (Random_layman) Senior Member Username: Random_layman Post Number: 3248 Registered: 5-2006 |
"Ask former called teacher Cheryl Perich how that worked out for her." I wonder how many people saw the headlines and thought... "What kind of cult would go to the Supreme Court to stick it to a disabled teacher". They could have settled it without any of that antithetical-to-the-Gospel publicity. We could insert a new verse in the Bible: Blessed are the litigious, for they will get what they want. | ||
| Rick Strickert (Carlvehse) Senior Member Username: Carlvehse Post Number: 4664 Registered: 10-2003 |
"What kind of cult would go to the Supreme Court to stick it to a disabled teacher". And other than the medication prescribed by her physician, who signed off the legal notice that she was fit to return to work, there was no evidence that Cheryl was "disabled" from teaching... except the gossip of the school board members, none of whom were qualified medical experts on the treatment her doctor was providing Perich. | ||
| Timothy Christian Schenks (Tschenks) Advanced Member Username: Tschenks Post Number: 925 Registered: 3-2006 |
George, I was a member of the Augustana Confraternity several years ago. I'm not sure if ELDoNA would fit Augustana's foundational statement any more.http://augustanaministerium.org/statement.pdf | ||
| Rick Strickert (Carlvehse) Senior Member Username: Carlvehse Post Number: 4665 Registered: 10-2003 |
Maybe the Augustana Ministerium, by keeping its ElDoNa members, is following the example noted in another LQ post: For example, Chemnitz politely overlooked that Jakob Andreae disagreed with the Preface to the Smalcald Articles and signed the Book of Concord along with him. So even the Book of Concord was in part an "agree to disagree". | ||
| Helen E. Jensen (Helen) Senior Member Username: Helen Post Number: 6824 Registered: 7-2004 |
Rick, I read about the school teacher. She got to the Supreme Court. In Texas, Pastors can't do DRP because the DP won't allow it (and they won't sue because they are confessional Pastors.) Isn't that neat!?  Mueller, have you answered my question? | ||
| George Mueller (Mueller) Senior Member Username: Mueller Post Number: 1424 Registered: 11-2012 |
Jensen, your question is impertinent. My question, on the other hand, is important. Do you wish to express fellowship with deniers of objective justification? Had I wanted to advertise my synodical affiliation, I would have listed it under my profile. It is not there. Neither is my marital status, my income, my political affiliation, and other biographical data that do not pertain to what I post on this website. | ||
| Timothy Christian Schenks (Tschenks) Advanced Member Username: Tschenks Post Number: 926 Registered: 3-2006 |
The question is whether this is to be considered actual mission work (church fellowship) or is it cooperation in externals (labor unions, etc.)? | ||
| David Breitenfeld (Dbreitenfeld) Advanced Member Username: Dbreitenfeld Post Number: 919 Registered: 10-2004 |
Helen: "In Texas, Pastors can't do DRP because the DP won't allow it (and they won't sue because they are confessional Pastors.) Isn't that neat!?" Really, how can DP or districts have so much power over pastors? What is the procedure then for disputes? This looks like some type of 1st level gatekeeper idea. | ||
| George Mueller (Mueller) Senior Member Username: Mueller Post Number: 1426 Registered: 11-2012 |
The Augustana Ministerium is not engaged in cooperation in externals. It is engaged in joint church work. The fact that so called confessional Lutherans in Missouri continue to remain affiliated with this organization, dominated as it is with deniers of objective justification, shows how much the internal politicking in the LCMS is just a matter of party spirit and isn't really about the truth at all. Consider Helen Jensen as an illustration of this. She reflects the biases of this so called confessional clique. Suspecting that I am not LCMS, she cannot trust me because I am not of the clique. I become the issue, while she sees nothing wrong with continued association with deniers of the pure gospel. Anyone who continues to work with members of ELDoNA shows his contempt for the pure gospel and reveals to one and all that all of the whining and complaining in the name of confessional Lutheranism is a great big show, signifying nothing but a party spirit. Since the men now in ELDoNA who are rejecting the pure gospel come from the same confessional clique as men presently in the LCMS, they can overlook such details as the divinely revealed truth. | ||
| Timothy Christian Schenks (Tschenks) Advanced Member Username: Tschenks Post Number: 927 Registered: 3-2006 |
The fact that so called confessional Lutherans in Missouri continue to remain affiliated with this organization, dominated as it is with deniers of objective justification, shows how much the internal politicking in the LCMS is just a matter of party spirit and isn't really about the truth at all. Rather than this conspiracy theory, I think most LCMS pastors are completely unaware of what ELDoNA believes or even that it exists. | ||
| George Mueller (Mueller) Senior Member Username: Mueller Post Number: 1429 Registered: 11-2012 |
Conspiracy theory? Nonsense! I'm talking about the herd mentality. These guys stick together like girls in a sorority. Don't tell me that the men associated with the Augustana Ministerium don't know that ELDoNA exists and don't know what the ELDoNA teaches. They know perfectly well. They just don't know what to do about it. And they won't know until the herd comes to some kind of consensus. You can be sure that they won't act in a principled manner because following the clique and acting according to principles are not the same thing. | ||
| George Mueller (Mueller) Senior Member Username: Mueller Post Number: 1430 Registered: 11-2012 |
I agree with you that most LCMS pastors don't know anything about ELDoNA. |
