Church and Change Jeff Davis

Jeff Davis, vice-chairman, Church and Change

Church and Change, 2007

107 CREATING A CULTURE OF GENEROSITY IN YOUR CHURCH

Jeffrey Davis (jeff@joyfulgiving.net) What is a generous church? How do we teach God’s people to excel in the grace of giving? When a congregation is transformed by Jesus’ message that “It is more blessed to give than to receive” (Acts 20:35), what does it look like? Preaching and teaching about money is not something we should ignore. Jesus, on numerous occasions, addressed the issue of money and possessions. He knew that God’s people throughout the ages would face challenges and temptations of wealth. The formula for creating a culture of generosity is very simple – through God’s Word preach it, teach it, and celebrate it! This workshop will share ideas and give examples for churches intent on creating cultures marked by strong financial stewardship and biblically guided generosity. Jeff’s ideas for God’s leaders on creating cultures of generosity within Lutheran congregations will be helpful and biblically based.Jeffrey Davis has served the Lutheran church as teacher, administrator and presently, as consultant. He is owner of Cornerstone Stewardship Ministry, a consulting firm that teaches stewardship.108 A POSITIVE VIEW OF BELIEVERFS (sic) IS REALISTIC…AND PRACTICAL!


Heart In Focus - Personal Finances Training Course

This repeating course guides individual members in the basics of wise faith-focused finances for their daily lives. The course will cover the Christian attitudes behind healthy financial decisions and practical advice for giving, saving, debt removal and financially wise lifestyles. Special workshops lead by Cornerstone Stewardship Ministry leader Mr. Jeff Davis and Adult Discipleship Administrator Rev David Kehl are offered throughout the WELS Districts upon request. Heart in Focus workbooks are now available at Northwestern Publishing House to train local leaders to lead this course as an ongoing part of an annual spiritual growth curriculum.

WELS Kingdom Workers

BOARD MEMBER
Jeff Davis
csconsultants@charter.net

"How about a juicy grant for Church and Change Doebler?"

FIC Author too? I thought these guys had no influence?

The bills will come

It's Christmas shopping season. Giving is part of our Christian life, but so is responsible management of our resources.


Author: Jeffrey Davis

Christmas is a time for gift giving. Many children of God love to give gifts as they imitate the greatest gift given to the entire world, the Lord Jesus Christ. Most view the Christmas season as a time to give and, in some cases, to lavish gifts upon their friends and relatives.

Yet how many times after Christmas do we receive our credit card statements or view the checkbook ledger only to realize that we spent much more than we intended? Then we realize that the added interest on the purchases increases what we spent. Often the credit card balances are already so high that we are unable to pay off the debt, and we end up only adding to our balance and going deeper into debt.

Member of http://www.stpaullakemills.org

Puto ut Kelm fio. I think I am becoming Kelm.

The triangles going up to the fish's mouth represent offering money
devoured by Church and Change buddies
(free vicars for Patterson, grant for Doebler, etc).
The triangles leaving the fish's rear end
symbolize Church and Change pooping on the synod
at every opportunity, fouling the water.

Blatant copying and pasting from Bailing Water:

Friday, October 24, 2008
WELS making use of ELCA's faith program

The WELS has formed a quasi-partnership with an ELCA program: http://www.wels.net/cgi-bin/site.pl?2617&collectionID=1147&contentID=57776&shortcutID=20408


Faith stepping stones: It is a reformed program with a dash of WELS flavor added.

http://www.wlcfs.org/equip/fss/fssfaqs.asp

Meet the ELCA leader of the stepping stones: http://www.faithink.com/About/richmelheim.asp

ELCA churches love it:

http://www.peacelutheranweb.com/plc/faithtoolbox/ftbstepstones.asp

WELS pastors and others that have given consent to this program: http://www.wlcfs.org/aboutUs/boardOfDirectors.asp


And these reformed leaders like it also:

http://www.steppingstonesministry.org/html/aboutus/news_acknowledgments.html

It has evolved from faith inkubators:
Faith Incubators pushes the new Gospel of Social Transformation
http://www.exorthodoxforchrist.com/peter_drucker_&_rick_warren.htm

“Faith Inkubators” was started by Rev. Rich Melheim (ELCA) who started a mentor-based program at Trinity Lutheran Church in Stillwater, MN.

By the Fall of 96 over 1000 congregations were experimenting with the program as living laboratories. “The movement currently involves 2/3 ELCA and 1/3 LCMS congregations and has its first UCC, Presbyterian, Methodist and Catholic test sites.” Yes, “Faith Inkubators” is a pan denominational, globalist, relational, catechism.

“Faith Inkubators” strives for transformation through “PROCESS”. Each child is assigned an adult mentor or “Guide” on their learning, serving, playing, praying, and growing journey. Pastors still teach content but a third of everything is taught through interactive small group learning activities. This writer evaluates the programs as enlisting spiritual guides, values clarification, and spiritual gift assessments. Melheim says he developed the program’s small group structure from Carl George’s Meta Church Model; its philosophy from William Glasser (a secular humanist and an expert in behavior modification); its business sense from MIT’s Peter Senge (author of “The Fifth Discipline”) and his own research. Theological “tips” come from Dr. Pat Keifert of the Leadership Network (www.leadnet.org).

The Leadership Network, who endorses Willow Creek as a model for American Churches of the 21st Century, is also advising the LCMS Council of Presidents on how to restructure congregations and the LCMS.

***

GJ - What are we learning today? WELS members and pastors must work harder and faster than Church and Change.

Step One - Be informed. The material is on the websites and in the official reports.

Step Two - Study the Book of Concord. These are all old heresies.

Step Three - Ignore the screaming. The personal attacks are the Church and Change way of deflecting attention from their apostasy.

And The Ironic Humor Award Goes To...Curtis Peterson and FIC.Wait! There's More!

Why Don't We Stop Calling Ourselves Lutheran?


Author: Curtis A. Peterson

Look up the whole article

In an effort to reach the unchurched, some Lutherans are opting to avoid labeling themselves as Lutheran when starting new churches. In one midwestern community a Lutheran mission took the name "Family of Faith Christian Church." Others call themselves community churches or take some other non-denominational name.


There is a reason for the name


When you think of it, no other mainline church body bears a person's name. Some names designate a form of church government--Presbyterian, Congregational, Episcopal. Others focus on a distinctive doctrine--Baptist, Holiness, Pentecostal. Many fast growing congregations adopt generic names such as Faith Fellowship, Grace Community, Fellowship Bible Church, or are named after the community (Elmbrook, Willow Creek Community Church).

***

GJ - The cover art shown is The Northwestern Lutheran, but now it is FIC. Forward in Christ is a real Lutheran magazine title! WELS is the only denominational with a stealth hymnal and stealth magazine.

More irony awaits the curious reader. Curtis Peterson loved the Church Growth Movement in the LCMS, but left to join the Wisconsin sect. Right away he was in a big church in Milwaukee and on a national board (world missions, I think - with Valleskey). No one else who joined by colloquy was graced with such preference. In fact, some long-time parish pastors might have wanted a little action like that.

Mrs. Ichabod and I were at his church, 21 years ago. He was later unhappy about my criticisms of Church Growth and reacted to them in a paper or two.

I think he is no longer a minister, at least not in WELS. (Not in WELS = de-rezzed, as in Tron, the Movie.)

Now WELS has done everything to submerge the Lutheran name. Ironic? Peterson would be thrown out today for being narrow-minded, legalistic, and disloyal to Church and Change.

---

Someone found this information about Peterson:

Freedom From Religion Foundation

Curtis A. Peterson holds a B.A. from Concordia Senior College, Ft. Wayne, Indiana, and a M.Div and STM (l966 and l983 respectively) from Concordia Seminary, St. Louis, Missouri.

In almost 30 years in the ministry in both the Missouri and Wisconsin Synods, he was an activist with many published articles supporting the orthodox Lutheran cause in the "Battle for the Bible" in the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod, and author of several articles in the Wisconsin Synod between l987 and l995. He also delivered several essays at pastoral conferences during those years.

He served congregations in Burlington, N.C., Rock Falls, Ill., Garland, Tex. and Gretna, La., in the LCMS and in Milwaukee, Wis. in the WELS.

A Foundation member, he is now retired, resides in Wisconsin and calls himself a humanist and a freethinker.

A leader of the foundation, Dan Baker. Here is his heart-warming story:

Dan Barker
Co-president, Freedom From Religion Foundation
Minister Turned Atheist

Dan became a teenage evangelist at age 15. At 16 he was choir librarian for faith-healer Kathryn Kuhlman's Los Angeles appearances. He received a degree in Religion from Azusa Pacific University and was ordained to the ministry by the Standard Community Church, California, in 1975. He served as associate pastor at a Friend's (Quaker) Church, an Assembly of God, and an independent Charismatic church. Dan was a Protestant missionary in Mexico for a total of two years.

Dan maintained a touring musical ministry for 17 years, including eight years of full-time, cross-country evangelism. An accomplished pianist, record producer, arranger and songwriter, he worked with Christian music companies such as Manna Music and Word Music. For many years, Dan wrote and produced the annual "Mini Musicale" for Gospel Light Publications' Vacation Bible School curriculum.

For more than two decades, Dan was accompanist, arranger, and record producer for Manuel Bonilla, the leading Christian singer in the Spanish-speaking world. He accompanied on the piano such Christian personalities as Pat Boone, Jimmy Roberts (of the Lawrence Welk Show), and gospel songwriter Audrey Meier, and was a regular guest on Southern California's "Praise The Lord" TV show (Spanish). One of Dan's Christian songs, "There Is One," was performed by Rev. Robert Schuller's television choir on the "Hour of Power" broadcast. To this day, he receives royalties from his popular children's Christian musicals, "Mary Had a Little Lamb" (1977), and "His Fleece Was White As Snow" (1978), both published by Manna Music and performed in many countries.

Following five years of reading, Dan gradually outgrew his religious beliefs. "If I had limited myself to Christian authors, I'd still be a Christian today," Dan says. "I just lost faith in faith." He announced his atheism publicly in January, 1984.

Dan was PR Director of the Freedom From Religion Foundation from 1987 to 2004. He was elected co-president of the Foundation with Annie Laurie Gaylor in 2004. He is a contributing editor of Freethought Today and is involved with the Foundation's state/church lawsuits.

Books
Losing Faith In Faith: From Preacher To Atheist
Dan's autobiographical story of deconversion, and a critical analysis of Christianity and the bible. FFRF, Inc., 1992.

Godless: How An Evangelical Preacher Became One of America's Leading Atheists Foreword by Richard Dawkins
A lot has happened in the 16 years since Losing Faith in Faith. Updating Dan's story of deconversion, Godless tells of lessons learned on the debate circuit, taking a lawsuit to the Supreme Court, and more bible criticism and debunking of theistic arguments. Ulysses Press, 2008.

Just Pretend: A Freethought Book For Children
Overtly freethought. Compares God and Santa, myth with reality, and celebrates atheism and freedom of thought. FFRF, Inc., 1988. (2002 new edition)

Maybe Yes, Maybe No: A Guide For Young Skeptics
Teaches the scientific method to children. Prometheus Books, 1990.

Maybe Right, Maybe Wrong: A Guide For Young Thinkers
Teaches humanistic morality to children. Prometheus Books, 1992.

Dan also has written a variety of educational booklets, brochures and "nontracts" for the Foundation.

See Dan's Online Writings

Media Appearances
Dan has appeared on many national television talkshows, including the Phil Donahue Show (twice), Sally Jessy Raphael Show (three times), and twice with Oprah Winfrey. He has also appeared on the national Morton Downey, Jr. Show, the Maury Povich Show, "NightTalk with Jane Whitney," "A Closer Look, with Faith Daniels," the "Shirley Show" (Toronto), Pat Robertson's CBN "Straight Talk," ABC's "Good Morning America" with host Joan Lunden, "Religion & Ethics News Weekly" hosted by Betty Rollin on PBS, the "Hannity & Colmes" talkshow on the Fox-News TV network, and Court TV's "Pros & Cons" show hosted by Nancy Grace.

Dan has been a guest on many regional TV talkshows and dozens of radio interviews across the continent. He regularly speaks and performs freethought concerts around the country at Unitarian-Universalist congregations, Ethical Culture, universities (including Harvard), and humanist conventions.

***

GJ - Sports fans. I have been saying this all along - young Church Growther, old atheist. Look at the WELS stuporstars of yesteryear. They are Pentecostals, Baptists, atheists, freethinkers. Church Growth principles at work.

Psst! I Heard This On the Grapevine

Actual graphic on the website. Looking for Lutheran or WELS on the graphic? Forget it.

Lutherans used to having sayings like Cross and Crown, showing how the path of the Christian was to bear the cross and share the crown of glory in eternal life. The Cross and Crown graphic is common in many older churches. The term crown is the word we use for Stephan, the first martyr, so many think the phrase crown of life was a deliberate wordplay.

But now we have a cross resting in a coffee mug and advertising aimed at coffee drinkers.

Besides that, the pastor is known for sheep-stealing from other WELS churches. The District Pope does nothing about it. The pastor (Latin for shepherd) goes to WELS members and says, "Join my church."

There in a capsule is the whole mindset of the Church Growth Movement, Church and Change. They do not convert. They sheep-steal. They undermine the discipline of other congregations, especially their own synod's, by claiming to make disciples.

The Church Growth Movement has had no positive impact on American Christianity. Millions of dollars have been spent. The only growth has been in apostasy (all denominations) and lawsuits (ditto).

I Was Sad That I Had No Shoes, Until I Met a Man With No Bio

Ski - going to bat for the Babtists.

Pastor Ski has a verbose blog, but no bio on the Church and Change website. That is carrying the stealth mode to a new level of security. Perhaps if we read Church and Change's website by the light of a full moon...

[Anonymous has left a new comment on your post "WELS Pastor Ron Ash, Chairman of Church and Change...":

The above-mentioned "congregation" that is being daughtered by St Peters is Solid Rock Ministries and Pastor Jim Skorewski has accepted the call to be its pastor....

PS It's not Pastor Timothy Glende anymore. It's "Pastor Tim"]

***

Solid Rock?

Built on a bluff the WELS doth hide
While Babtist churches are calling...

We know he worked at St. Marcus, home of the non-Lutheran Time of Grace program (Mark Jeske). We also know another person from St. Marcus is on the board of Church and Change.

Ski flew to the Drive 08 conference to hear Baptist Andy Stanley, son of the Baptist minister who went to Korea to study under Paul Y. Cho.

The Church and Change minders are saying in their anonymous comments, "Do not be hysterical. We are few. We are weak. We are inconsequential (or something close to that word). Just tolerate us for experimenting a little. All we want to do is win people for Christ. Why are you narrow-minded bigots against us open-minded pioneers?"

District VP Patterson took a group of WELS pilgrims to the Exponential Conference to hear Stetzer, and he has all kinds of synod positions as well as a fat synod grant to pay for his vicars. And--poof--Stetzer has Church and Change on his list of speaking engagements, a fact still hidden on the Church and Change website, a fact denied by Church and Changers though debated by the WELS DPs, who frowned.

So we have two clusters from Church and Change going to hear two famous Baptist salesmen.

Stanley calls his church Northpoint Community Church, a wee bit deceptive itself, as one person noted.

And all the cutting edge Church and Changers want to use Community Church or hide Lutheran and WELS from their gullible followers. That is pure coincidence.

The WELS world and American mission people have hidden their attendance at Fuller and Willow Creek from the membership, to the point of lying openly about it. Now they are so brazen that they brag about it here and there. No one will ever know how much money has been wasted on Fuller tuition, trips to Willow Creeks, Church Growth books, Baptist and Pentecostal seminars. And it has not even worked for them.

Stetzer Pilgrim, Church Growth Guru Get To Revise WELS Seminary Curriculum

Stetzer Pilgrimage leader Patterson edits for FIC and tells the seminary how to improve its curriculum. "We need a big ol' bathtub up front the chapel, jus' like those fast-growing Babtists." His latest vicar is the son of seminary professor James Tiefel.

Paul Kelm, DMin (Our Lady of Sorrows, St. Louis), Fuller Seminary veteran, gave a paper to advise the seminary too.


Seminary training

Awhile ago a WLS alumni wondered about the changes taking place in the Seminary curriculum. The curriculum developers are looking to make sure that the sem and its students are kept current on the cutting edge methods that are being used by "others" are also studied and used by new WELS pastors.

The president of the sem, faculty, students and others sat at the feet of the leading Church and Change promoters to hear what the Baptists are doing and how we should be following their lead.

Official Seminary Report:

Seminary faculty, the school presidents, representatives from current students, from pastors, from teachers, from laypeople, from various areas of ministry, from governing board members, and from district presidents will all gather on these two days to discuss these presentations given by Pastor Paul Kelm, President Paul Prange, and Pastor Don Patterson.

Was Prange used to balance the non-Lutherans or is he another Church and Change Cheerleader?

Kathie Wendland, Church and Change

Women Leadership - Conference Breakout 202....
WELS “Women Leaders – No Longer an Oxymoron”


Kathie Wendland

Join us for a reprise of the WELS Women Leadership Conference originally held July 7, 2007, at Wisconsin Lutheran Seminary. Discuss the keynote address Kathie presented at this conference and the three Bible studies led by pastor/laywoman teams. Teaching styles and methods more prevalent among women will be used. This will be a Bible study of leadership styles used by women in Scripture, a sort of an “ugly, bad, and good” look at them.




Email: ehwend@lakefield.net

Matt Doebler, Church and Change, Stetzer Pilgrimage

WELS has money for aping the Baptists: "10) Christ the Rock – Round Rock, Texas. Pastor Matthew Doebler. The ministry has been enriched by a generous grant ($13,000) from the Kingdom Workers National Project program."

Website - Ministry Resource
Matt Doebler


Develop a website, which shares ministry resources (such as special services, Bible studies), for different areas of ministry. Find someone who has web-developing skills. Does not need to be an expert. Basic skills are needed. Find a free or cheap web server. Figure out your goals. Who is your target audience? What do you want to share? Find some dependable contributors who will submit quality material. This will save you some time on reviewing everything that you are given to publish. Use MS Word format for submitted material and "save as ... web page". Can import easily into web pages. Other technical issues, consult an expert. Keep updating periodically - an unchanging web site is a dead web site. Promote by any means possible. I have tried the WorldWide Winkel & conferences



Email: doeblermc@yahoo.com



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Women - Aerobics and Bible Studies to Mix!
Matt Doebler


Offer a Bible class, which strengthens the body & spirit. Find an aerobic woman who enjoys working out and studying the Bible. Aerobic training is a plus, although she could just use videos. It could be 2 leaders - 1 physical and 1 spiritual. Find a Bible study, which can be broken up into 20-minute sections (one section per session). Break the class up into 20 minute Bible study and 40-50 minute aerobic workout with toning. Use a gym or larger classroom for workout and studying on the floor. Meet weekly. Keep to 7 or 8-week sessions.


Email: doeblermc@yahoo.com

Stelljes, Church and Change: Pilgrimage to Baptist Stetzer

Drama - Conference Breakout 503.... Oh, the Drama of It All!
(Drama in Worship for Beginners)


Pastor John and Angela Stelljes [GJ - This implies Angela is also a pastor.]

Props, people, lights, scripts, cues, transitions. . .and God’s Word. If you’re thinking about doing drama in worship but don’t know where to begin, this workshop is for you! In the midst of the drama that comes with doing drama learn some tips, tools and techniques for focusing on the one thing needful.


If you are interested in getting your hands on this conference workshop PowerPoint or want more information, email the speaker by selecting the link below!

Email: butterfly.peapod@gmail.com



----------------------------------

Drama - Conference Breakout 504.... Dramalogue
(Advanced Drama in Worship)


Pastor John and Angela Stelljes [GJ - This implies Angela is also a pastor.]

You’ve written sketches for the church? Perhaps you’ve played a shepherd boy more than once. Want to share what you’ve learned about drama in worship with others? Come join us for an in-depth dialogue of what works and what really doesn’t
when using drama in worship. Bring scripts and experiences
to share.


If you are interested in getting your hands on this conference workshop PowerPoint or want more information, email the speaker by selecting the link below!

Email: butterfly.peapod@gmail.com

WELS Pastor Ron Ash, Chairman of Church and Change

Church and Change has set itself up as the self-appointed agency running the Wisconsin Synod. That is handy, since the drones at The Love Shack are deeply involved in this festering boil of false doctrine. WELS members are paying the salaries and benefits of Love Shack employees to promote Church and Change.

Church and Change Bio - Ron Ash

Chairman, Appleton, WI

Ron started his ministy by serving three congregations in Colorado. He has since served for 30 years at St. Peter Lutheran Church, Appleton, WI. During this time he has been Circuit Pastor, Chairman of the Board of Regents at FoxValleyLutheranHigh School, Secretary of the Fox River Valley Conference, on the Governing Board at LutherPreparatory School, and Circuit Chairman. He has been a promoter of creating innovative ministries for a changing world. His wife, Renate, and he have three children.

[GJ - The assistant pastor is Tim Glende, from St. Paul, Columbus, the congregation which took in Floyd Luther Stolzenburg when he was kicked out of the LCMS ministry. Floyd helped organize a Church Growth seminar, attended by the St. Paul's staff, and started "the first WELS Church Growth agency - Lutheran Parish Resources."]

Anonymous has left a new comment on your post "WELS Pastor Ron Ash, Chairman of Church and Change...":

The above-mentioned "congregation" that is being daughtered by St Peters is Solid Rock Ministries and Pastor Jim Skorewski has accepted the call to be its pastor....

---

PS It's not Pastor Timothy Glende anymore. It's "Pastor Tim"

From their website, St. Peter Cares:

History
St. Peter congregation was founded by a group of Lutheran immigrants from [GJ- From? From? Please let us know.]. It was organized on October 5, 1868.

From Bailing Water:


Anonymous said...
A small clip from a WELS church bulletin in an area about 20 miles from St Mark Depere..... Is this the direction WELS wants to go???

"Some people from our church have approached our pastors about starting a daughter congregation in the Appleton area. These WELS people would fund the entire project for a certain number of years. It will not be financed by our congregation. This daughter congregation would have its own pastor and a part-time music director. The main feature of this church would be: 1) contemporary worship only; 2) small group ministry; 3) lay-driven; 4) Appleton area focused; 5) and will reach out to the unchurched. This congregation will be directed by a separate executive committee. It will have a different name than St. Peter and will worship in facilities outside our campus and not at FVL.
We will have two open hearings to discuss the concept of a
daughter congregation between the services on June 8 & 15, 2008, in church.
We will vote on this proposal at our June 23, 2008 voters’ meeting."

May 19, 2008 4:55 PM
Anonymous said...
Thanks for the laugh!

The 40+ WELS congregations in the Appleton area really need help getting the word out????

May 20, 2008 1:22 PM
miket said...
Anonymous (5/19 - 4:55 pm):

Your comment refers to a church growthy outreach proposal and asks whether this is the direction the WELS wants to go. Obviously, it is the direction that at least some in one congregation want to go. I trust that you are not ascribing the thinking of these few to the whole synod. I think most of the people in WELS would have concerns about starting the kind of mission described in that bulletin note.

The history of the WELS is full of cases of liberal pastors leading their congregations in directions not consistent with God's Word. Some of those pastors came to see the error of their ways; most are no longer WELS.

Seeing a bulletin note like this does not alarm me. What would alarm me is false doctrine that goes undisciplined. Do you know of anything along those lines that needs to be addressed?

May 20, 2008 1:35 PM
Anonymous said...
"The main feature of this church would be: 1) contemporary worship only; 2) small group ministry; 3) lay-driven; 4) Appleton area focused; 5) and will reach out to the unchurched."

Am I missing something? What is not consistent with God's Word in those four? The only false doctrine that needs to be addressed in this vain is elevating personal preferences to the level of Scripture and addressing those who are not in agreement with your opinions "false teachers'. That's called legalism and that is a sin -- period. That is also an issue that also needs to be addressed in the WELS.

I live in the Fox Valley, the number of people we are reaching in our 40+ congregations, the number sitting in His house regularly, and the number of adult confirmations are in most cases, not rising. The synod stats, which I have a copy of, indicates a need to at least look at different ways to gain an audience so that God's means can be shared.

Just shout'in

May 20, 2008 7:59 PM
Anonymous said...
Just shout'in,

Who promised that your congregations would grow?

May 21, 2008 6:01 AM
Anonymous said...
Wow, even Wels is wandering to Rick Warren (and his ilk...ever notice, ilk is never a good thing)
So how does Wels measure success?
Nickels and Noses or faithful preaching of the Gospel and administering the Sacrements? Since numbers aren't going up, do you leave the Gospel for a marketing plan??
Just askin'

May 21, 2008 7:37 AM
rlschultz said...
"Who promised that your congregations would grow?"

Very good question which needs to be asked in a situation like this or any other which relies upon "M&M's" - marketing and methods. Furthermore, where is numerical growth even made a requirement of the so-called Great Commission? So much of this type of approach demonstrates a lack of discernment.
The final, default argument for all of this nonsense is that they are just trying to save souls.

May 21, 2008 12:07 PM
Anonymous said...
John,

Your blog has been quoted extensively over on Ichabod the past day or two. If you want people to take you even in the least bit seriously, you need to talk to Jackson and tell him to stop. The guy is a jerk of a pastor and a false prophet (denies objective justification). There's a reason why he's all by himself.
[GJ - Feel the love? This must be a Church and Change board member.]

May 21, 2008 3:42 PM
Anonymous said...
Rev. Jackson has many more supporters than this person knows. What makes him think he all alone?

May 22, 2008 12:27 PM
Norman Teigen said...
Some of us in the ELS are concerned about the confessional integrity of the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod. I believe that this will be discussed in the upcoming ELS convention. At least, I hope that it is.

Norman Teigen
ELS layman

May 23, 2008 4:29 PM
Anonymous said...
Norm, how is this going to be discussed? I can't see someone getting up on the floor and saying: "We better check out the WELS!" How will this happen?

May 23, 2008 6:47 PM
Anonymous said...
Norm, how is this going to be discussed? I can't see someone getting up on the floor and saying: "We better check out the WELS!" How will this happen?

May 23, 2008 6:47 PM
Norman Teigen said...
I accept the challenge. I will go to Mankato and ask for the floor and raise the question myself.

Norman Teigen
ELS layman

May 24, 2008 10:02 AM
Anonymous said...
Norm, this wasn't a challenge. You yourself wrote on this blog: "I believe that this will be discussed in the upcoming ELS convention." My only question was, "How?" I wasn't challenging you in any way.

May 24, 2008 5:05 PM

---

Church and Change:
Women's Advent Candlelight Service
Pastor Ron Ash


Each lady decorates a table with a Christmas theme using their own decorations for a table of six. They provide a dessert and coffee for their table. The ladies draw up and conduct a worship service - all by candlelight.Cost is low - donated food; ladies provide decorations for their table; men volunteer to take down tables after event. It takes 60-70 ladies to put on this event.


Phone: (920) 733-7225