Read Quensteadt Slowly - Do Not Move Your Lips - And Then Write a Reflection Paper on This Citation Proving UOJ.For Extra Credit - Why Did Dr. Robert Preus Quote This in His Last Book?

Rev. David R. Boisclair (Drboisclair) Advanced Member Username: Drboisclair Post Number: 518 Registered: 1-2002	Posted on Friday, March 28, 2014 - 8:52 am:       My contribution for the morning: ELDoNA/Jackson's doctrine of Justification is a false and blasphemous doctrine in so far as it denies the biblical doctrine of Objective Justification. It denies the true Gospel. That is in response to Brett Meyer's final word in his latest post. [GJ - You and ELCA agree, Dave.]
Dave Schumacher (Lex) Advanced Member Username: Lex Post Number: 808 Registered: 6-2003	Posted on Friday, March 28, 2014 - 9:58 am:       Check this out: https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/1512-did -christ-literally-bear-our-sins-on-the-cross Brett, Jackson, and Rydecki must be getting their theology from this Wayne Jackson guy. [GJ - Put the cap back on the glue, Dave.]
Dave Schumacher (Lex) Advanced Member Username: Lex Post Number: 809 Registered: 6-2003	Posted on Friday, March 28, 2014 - 10:05 am:       Brett, When you confer with Jackson on the Luther quotes I provide see if you guys can't come up with a better argument than "this is a poor choice of words" or "this is unsubstantiated". Jackson knows that Luther wrote this. He doesn't agree with it, but he can't say that. Instead, he has to make up lame arguments. But what Luther wrote, he wrote, and you can be assured that he meant it. He was right too. Brett, you and Jackson are at odds with the Scriptures, the BOC, and Luther. [GJ - Dave, Dave. Close the lid now.]
Joe Krohn (Jester) Intermediate Member Username: Jekster Post Number: 232 Registered: 4-2011	Posted on Friday, March 28, 2014 - 11:17 am:       I am going to follow Pr. Boisclair's lead and leave this discussion. If Brett Meyer doesn't get it after all this time, he never will. @ Brett #186 The passages you quote prior to Romans 4:16 are in reference to the elect and what God chooses to do to them post foreknowledge of them. Your idea of what Romans 4:16 means is wrong and you do not follow the sound pattern of words. You have been counselled on this repeatedly. "...of faith...by grace." It is always grace first. There can be no faith without grace first. Furthermore, the passage states that the promise is extended to all men and that the reality of the promise is not predicated on faith, but grace. This is Lutheranism 101, Brett Meyer. This my last correspondence regarding Justification with anyone in the Jackson/ELDoNA camp. I really should have been doing other things. [GJ - Joe, it is not a discussion if the Queasies just rant like people in a locked ward.]

Progress Made - Justification by Faith

I have seen more open discussion of justification by faith in the last year than I have in the last 20 years. In the past, when some of you were still on trikes, the slightest indication of doubt about UOJ would send the self-appointed Storm-Brownies into abusive rages.

The Storm-Brownies are still using the same tactics, but they hear about justification by faith from many different quarters. They are not pleased.

They imagine they have the Gospel, but they cannot get along. The Rolf Sect parted with Rolf even though they believe the same nonsense about justification without faith. The Chief Article should unite them, but they are friends with the Chief Deceiver, who lies, murders, and alienates. WELS and the Little Sect despise one another, but they are supposedly united on the Kokomo Statements. Pope John the Malefactor is even denser on this topic than Mark the Bookkeeper, so they should all be lovey-dovey. Not so. They only copy one another's biggest blunders. Once WELS was done with Floyd Luther Stolzenburg, the ELS adopted him and allied him with their questionable work in the Ukraine. The open affiliation, through Jay Webber and John Shep, did not stop until I repeatedly exposed it by quoting CG guru Stolzenburg.

UOJ has united WELS, LCMS, ELCA, and the United Nations. They are closer than a house full of Mormon wives.

Below are the basic errors of Justification without Faith, commonly known as Universal Objective Justification:

• Paul teaches UOJ in Romans 4, when the chapter is only about justification by faith.
• Justification becomes a work when "if you believe" is included - a claim also destroyed by Romans 4, especially Romans 4:24.
• Romans 5 describes UOJ perfectly, although the heading of the chapter (clearly a thematic chapter, even before chapter and verses) is justification by faith, access to God's grace. Therefore, Paul contradicted himself immediately after JBFA in Romans 4 and contradicted JBFA in Romans 5:1-2 in the next few verses.
• When Jesus rose from the dead, the entire world was justified without faith - contradicted by their claim that when Jesus died, the entire world was justified without faith in Him.
• Because Jesus became sin for us, the entire world was declared righteous without faith.
• The Atonement is exactly the same as justification, but not adequate for forgiveness, since all those forgiven and righteous saints have to believe they were already forgiven and righteous or they are not really forgiven and righteous.
• Everyone is "in Christ" even though in Christ means - only those who believe in Christ.
• UOJ is not rationalistic Pietism, even though their main thinkers and statements come from Halle University, the mother ship of Pietism in Europe.
• UOJ is not a form of Calvinism, even though the first proponent, Samuel Huber, was a former Calvinist who reverted and was expelled from the Wittenberg U. faculty.
• Robert Preus never stopped believing in UOJ, even though his last book, Justification and Rome, shreds UOJ with quotations from the Age of Lutheran Orthodoxy.
• Forget about that Calov quotation! It really teaches UOJ even though it clearly teaches justification by faith alone.
• Ignore Quensteadt and Gerhard too. In spite of what they seem to say, like Luther, they really believed in UOJ, even before the glorious Age of unionistic, rationalistic Pietism.

"We know Robert Preus quoted this with approval,
but it really says the opposite of what it says."
UOJ Fanatics

Is the LQ Skunkpatch a Blessing? They Think So. St. Paul and Luther Agree - They Help Separate the Bad from the Good

Rev. David R. Boisclair (Drboisclair) Advanced Member Username: Drboisclair Post Number: 517 Registered: 1-2002	Posted on Thursday, March 27, 2014 - 10:45 pm:       Brett Meyer, count yourself blessed that you are surrounded here by a great cloud of faithful witnesses, who care about the state of your soul, mired as it is with false doctrine. I want you to know that I am going to pray for you that God would give you repentance to life.
Franz Linden (Franz_mann) Senior Member Username: Franz_mann Post Number: 1906 Registered: 12-2004	Posted on Thursday, March 27, 2014 - 10:56 pm:       Brett Meyer writes: Franz - so there is only one direction of reconciliation which is the world needing to be reconciled to God. Yes, that is correct. Note, the righteousness of faith is...reconciliation with God...on account of the obedience of Christ, which through faith alone, out of pure grace, is imputed for righteousness to all true believers. This is also is correct, as far as it goes. The problem is where you go from here. More precisely, the problem is what you do with the reconciliation which God obtained in Christ. You say that Christ died for the sins of the world, but that the world is not reconciled to God because God hasn't forgiven, or justified, the world. This is the great error on your part, because faith believes that God has forgiven, does forgive, and will keep on forgiving all sins for Christ's sake. Faith doesn't believe in a forgiveness that can only occur once a person believes, because such a faith has nothing to cling to except itself. The object of faith has to come before faith can have something to which to cling. Your response to that, as I understand it, is that faith clings to the promise of forgiveness. That doesn't answer the question though. We affirm the very same thing. The difference is that we understand, on the basis of God's Word, that God didn't merely place all the sins of the world on His Son, put Him to grief, kill Him, and then raise Him from the dead so that He could promise to forgive sins. He did all that so that He could justify the ungodly, as the Scriptures say. Your beef is not with us, Mr. Meyer. Your beef is with the Word of God and thus with God Himself. He's not on your side in this debate. Franz
Brett Meyer (Brett_meyer) Member Username: Brett_meyer Post Number: 185 Registered: 1-2008	Posted on Thursday, March 27, 2014 - 11:16 pm:       Dave, well said. Pastor Holzer, allow me to respond. That you deny that all are justified puts us in a position of uncertainty in the Gospel. That must be so. No, that’s a false conclusion based on a false premise. The false premise is that the Gospel message that is to be believed is the supposed declaration by God that the unbelievers sins were already forgiven and absolved by God because God had imputed to the unbeliever Christ’s righteousness – note Koehler’s imputation quote above. It’s false because God decreed that His gracious gift of faith in Christ alone is the only way to apprehend Christ’s righteousness for the forgiveness of sins – justification. The false conclusion is that rejecting the false claim that God absolved the unbelieving world makes that claim uncertain – well we should hope so. It was never made – Buchholz even admitted that “God has forgiven the world” and he excommunicated Pastor Rydecki for saying that God never made that statement. The Truth is that the Gospel proclaims faith in Christ. Not faith in some false declaration. Faith in Christ, which is Christ’s righteousness, worked graciously by the Holy Ghost is grounded in Christ and Him crucified – there is nothing uncertain about that. The act of believing must have an object; Heb 11:1. That object must exist outside of itself or by definition it’s not “objective”. That you split hairs over words and attempt to distinguish between “justify” and “reconcile” or any other synonym does you no good. People are being excommunicated because of opposing confessions of the Word of God which you describe as splitting hairs. The objective object of faith is Christ. John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. Christ, not some false declaration that is contrary to Scripture and the Lutheran Confessions. In the end, if the whole world is not, then you cannot be sure that such truth, whatever it may be, applies to you as an individual. It does you no good to appeal to a predestination or the “mind of God” because you cannot see either of these being a human bound by time and space. None of us can. This is just more rationalistic UOJ babble. The unbelieving world has not been imputed Christ’s righteousness as Koehler says when he channel’s the spirit of UOJ. The righteousness of Christ, faith in Christ, and the Holy Spirit which reveals the truth of Scripture to Christians and Christ Himself who is in them through faith alone affirms the truth of the Gospel promises. It is foolishness to those who reject the Holy Spirit’s faith in Christ alone – those who are perishing. I believe Galatians 2:16, “Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.” John 20:29, “Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.” Then your problem is that you are forced to make faith a work that you do that distinguishes you from the unbeliever. No appeal to Eph. 2:8-9 will do you any good, because you deny the very thing that Paul is asserting by rejecting his appeal to the objective nature of the truth (v.10).  No, faith in Christ alone, although anathema to the doctrine of UOJ, is not a work of man but a gracious gift of God. Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: You say appealing to God’s Word will do me no good, but it is directly applicable for those who believe it. And the objective nature of the truth is that Christ, the Righteous One, paid for the sins of the whole world – every individual. By faith in Christ as True God and True Man, who paid for the sins of the whole world, every individual, every believer is redeemed from under the Law, dies to sin and is raised to Life under God’s grace, receives the adoption of sons, Christ’s righteousness, justification and eternal life. It makes no difference if you purport to argue that only “believers” are saved (even though no one who asserts the doctrine of UOJ claims that any are saved apart from faith) because you must rest your trust in the subjective nature of faith and not the objective truth that Jesus “takes away the sin of the world”. The means of grace that is the instrument of grace.  It is the UOJists who argue that only “believers” are saved because the doctrine of UOJ teaches the whole world of unbelievers are saved – just not heaven saved. It’s the false doctrine of UOJ which teaches the unbelieving world has been imputed Christ’s righteousness such that God declares them justified and righteous just as He declared Christ justified and righteous and yet it doesn’t save them. Scripture teaches justification is eternal life. It’s UOJ that has shouldered the impossible burden of proving their false doctrine to not be a form of Universalism but one where all those who are justified and righteous by God’s divine verdict are not saved. Show us your faith in the objective truth. No one can who rejects that they can rest that faith on a universal reconciliation/ justification/ forgiveness. You must fall back on something you did. Even the Calvinist who rejects a universal reconciliation/ justification/ forgiveness is forced to become a Lutheran in the test of fire. They are forced to realize that certainty cannot rest in the flesh even though they may have spent a lifetime relying on their “good works” as the testimony that they have saving faith and not a sham faith masquerading as genuine faith.  I believe that Christ is my Substitute and Mediator, that He lived, suffered, died and paid for my sins. That is my faith in the objective truth and I reject UOJ’s false proclamation. It is the reprobates in the church who will not and therefore cannot examine themselves to see that they have faith in Christ alone. 2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? We need not examine the synergist, he already believes that his “faith” is a work done to save him. Simply another admission that UOJ teaches faith being a work attributable to man. Another volley of fire aimed at the righteousness of Christ and work of the Holy Ghost. In Christ, Brett Meyer
Brett Meyer (Brett_meyer) Member Username: Brett_meyer Post Number: 186 Registered: 1-2008	Posted on Thursday, March 27, 2014 - 11:33 pm:       Joe Krohn allow me to respond: "No, Brett Meyer. Scripture does not speak this way (referring to my statement, "It is God who choses[sic] who has faith in Christ alone."). 2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you. John 15:19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world,but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you. If God chooses who has faith, then it follows He chooses who doesn't. Pure UOJ rationalism. Luke 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not! This makes God guilty of lying against His will for all to be saved. 1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began; The elect are based in God's foreknowledge and that's it. The curtain is drawn and the council of God is secret. The only 'choosing' concerning the elect is what God chooses to do concerning His elect after His foreknowledge. Your insistence that faith saves and not grace shows your 'in view of faith' view of election. It is of faith so that it might be by grace - they are never separate as UOJ teaches that the whole world was justified by grace alone and later they are saved by faith alone. Romans 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, UOJ is a false and blasphemous doctrine. In Christ, Brett Meyer