Order Your St. Christopher St. Walther Medal Now

Here is a picture of the front of the medallion, above. The medal will be cast in bronze, in honor of the Bronze Age Missourians who worship C. F. W. Walther, Ed Preuss, Stoeckhardt, and F. Pieper.

From Cyber-Bronzies Walther Medallion Opportunity —

Act Now to Reserve a Copy August 23rd, 2011 No comments

In honor of the 200th anniversary of Dr. C.F.W. Walther’s birth, Concordia Publishing House is pleased to be the exclusive provider of a commemorative medallion. We are asking people to express their interest in receiving a copy by placing advance orders. We have to receive at least 200 orders to move forward on this project. So, if you are interested in having a keep-sake, limited edition commemorative medallion, please reserve a copy before September 1.

Place your reservation order here. Here is more information. Honor Walther’s Lasting Leadership This October will be the bicentennial celebration of one of the most influential leaders in the history of The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod, C.F.W. Walther. As the first president of our synod, Walther used his passion and outspoken nature to ensure that Lutherans in 19th century America remained faithful to the Scriptures and Lutheran Confessions. A beautiful reminder of Walther’s lasting leadership, this antique bronze medallion is now available for pre-order.

The front features a timeline of his accomplishments, while the back pays homage to his most popular work, The Proper Distinction Between Law and Gospel. This impressive 3″ medallion will make a striking statement on your desk or library shelf! This limited edition medallion requires a minimum order quantity be achieved by September 1, 2011. In the event this minimum order is not reached, your pre-order will be cancelled with no strings attached.

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narrow-minded has left a new comment on your post "Order Your St. Christopher St. Walther Medal Now":

Does anyone recall this kind of a big deal for Loehe in 2008 for his 200th Birthday?

Colloquy for the WELS Leadership LCMS and ELS Should Answer Too

Without a doubt, WELS has promoted the false doctrine of Church Growth from the top down, beginning with SP Naumann endorsing it in the first issue of TELL magazine.

SP Mischke did more of the same, with Paul Calvin Kelm serving as his Iago.


Next came SP Gurgle, the conservative dream candidate who would stop promote amalgamation and drive even more CG advances through God's Counselor, Wayne Mueller, SP-in-Waiting.

SP Gurgle was shown the door, before the kitchen silverware disappeared with the rest of the loot. For some reason, the DP who supervised the bankruptcy of MilCraft--estate gift to the district, followed by losing a lawsuit to the defrauded widow--was entrusted with a much larger legacy, the Schwan Indulgences.

Most wealthy adulterers are not preached into heaven until they die. Marvin was assumed into heaven while still alive, with a three-sect chorus of voices praising his leadership. And for good reason. Rather than adopt a congregation or denomination, Marvin adopted the entire Synodical Conference, building cathedrals to honor himself in St. Louis, Mankato, and New Ulm.

The next conservative dream candidate* was Mark Schroeder, who has promoted Church and Change leaders to positions of greater influence while threatening and silencing critics of Fuller Seminary.

To quote DP John Seifert, "Wisconsin Synod practices say more about our doctrine than we care to think." Yes, indeed. And that includes Silent Seifert.

WELS members and pastors have begged Mark Schroeder to do something about members being excommunicated by such rascals as Glende, Patterson, and Gurgle. (The ex-SP keeps turning up, like a bad penny.) Schroeder says he is powerless. Tis funny how so many men covet powerless positions. Buchholz is powerless too. If they want to experience a powerless position, they should try blogging. I could not get a certified letter acknowledged by the SP, let alone answered.

Long ago I proved that the entire structure of WELS was nothing more than a franchise operation to benefit Fuller Seminary, with their Love Shack leaders and Sausage Factory professors promoted chiefly because they attended Fuller, Willow Creek, and Trinity Divinity: Valleskey, Bivens, Kelm, Olson, Huebner, Oelhafen, Adrian, and many more.

Colloquy Questions

Rather than plead for mercy for the excommunicated from WELS, why not put the DPs and Synod President through colloquy, to see if they are Lutheran? Or even Christian? Here are the questions.

1. Does the Holy Spirit work only through the Word, as Hoenecke taught in harmony with the Scriptures, Luther, and the Confessions?

2. Is God's grace given to us only through the Means of Grace, the Word and Sacraments?

3. If God declared the entire world forgiven the moment Christ died, where is this found in the Scriptures?

4. If God declared the entire world forgiven the moment Christ rose from the dead, where is this found in the Scriptures? Please account for the time difference between #3 and #4.

5. Was anyone justified in the Old Testament? If not, then why does Paul declare that Abraham was reckoned righteous because of his faith?

6. Please explain the contradiction between Abraham justified by faith and the entire world declared forgiven the moment He died, or rose? Clarify the time differences between #3, #4, and #6.

7. Are you willing to accuse Paul of promoting intuitu fidei, because he wrote, inspired by the Holy Spirit: KJV Romans 4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; 25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

8. Do you equate the atonement with justification and salvation, in agreement with the convention essay by DP Buchholz? (Buchholz has to be asked if he agrees with his own essay, because he denies that WELS has ever said everyone is saved.)

9. Do you agree with the Seventh Day Adventists about justification, because they have exactly the same statement as WELS and Missouri? If you do agree, why have you not declared fellowship with the Adventists?

10. Do you agree with the Universalists, who say that everyone is forgiven and saved? If not, please explain. Clarify the contradiction between #9 and #10.

11. Are babies born already forgiven, as Ed Preuss wrote before he joined the Church of Rome, while still teaching as a Lutheran? If so, why baptize them?

12. Are Hottentots already forgiven, as Ed Preuss wrote in his famous booklet on justification? If they are, why have foreign missions, except for the beaches in Rio and the Riviera?

13. Why was Gausewitz head of the Synodical Conference and the author of a Small Catechism edition used by most congregations, since his work does not even mention Universal Objective Justification?

14. When WELS replaced Gausewitz with Kuske's catechism, why did you fail to notice the change in doctrine?

15. Are you promoting the porno-mytho-anti-Sacramental NNIV because it butchers Romans to teach universal absolution?

*

GJ - The so-called conservatives should read Norris' The Octopus, where the farmers used their money to buy someone a seat on the railroad commission, only to find out he was a slave to the railroad monopoly.

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marco has left a new comment on your post " Without a doubt, WELS has promoted the false doc...":

Apology of the Augsburg Confession, Art IV (p.151).

"Is. 53:11: By His knowledge shall He justify many. But what is the knowledge of Christ unless to know the benefits of Christ, the promises which by the Gospel He has scattered broadcast in the world?"

Does this quote leave any doubt where Luther stood on Romans 5:15,19 with the word "many"? and also, by the way, where he stood on John 1:29 since John the Baptist's reference was not to the Day of Atonement, but to Isaiah 53:7,11?

Only by knowing Christ through faith are the many justified. Only by knowing Christ through faith does the Lamb of God take away their sins.

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AC V has left a new comment on your post "Colloquy for the WELS Leadership LCMS and ELS Shou...":

Oops, did that slip out? In an interview with the San Diego Reader (http://www.sandiegoreader.com/news/2011/feb/23/sheep-reformation-lutheran-church; reprinted in the Sep. 2011 FIC-l), WELS pastor Kevin Schultz answers this question:

SDR: What is your main concern as a member of the clergy?

PS: The most important concern I have is getting people interested in God's Word....

Wow, what a burden to bear! It's all up to "me." If people aren't interested in God's Word, it's because I'm not doing it right. All I need is the right CG method, and they'll become interested.

Seems the knee-jerk reaction for WELS clergy now (at least for this WELS pastor), when asked what a pastor's "main concern" is, is to "get people interested in God's Word." Better check your ordination vows again, PS. That's not what you swore to do.

The right answer would have been, "The most important concern I have is being faithful to God's Word and his Sacraments because it is through the preaching of God's Word and the administration of the Sacraments that sinners hear of and receive God's grace in Jesus Christ. And I pray that by God's grace many will believe when they hear that good news. It's best job in the world because the results are up to God, not me."

When in Doubt - Read Luther in Context.

AC V has left a new comment on your post "Joe Krohn Answers in Public":

Good job, Joe! Here's a good quote by Luther (of course) in the Large Catechism (of course) that explains how forgiveness is distributed to the sinner:

"Although the work is done and the forgiveness of sins is secured by the cross (John 19:30), it cannot come to us in any other way than through the Word. How would we know about it otherwise, that such a thing was accomplished or was to be given to us, unless it were presented by preaching or the oral Word (Romans 10:17; 1 Corinthians 1:21)? How do they know about it? Or how can they receive and make the forgiveness their own, unless they take hold of and believe the Scriptures and the Gospel? . . . The treasure, indeed, is opened and placed at everyone's door, yes, upon his table."

- Martin Luther, Large Catechism, Concordia: The Lutheran Confessions (St. Louis:
Concordia Publishing House, 2005), 461.

Reader Offers Alternative View of Installation

• Muslim students demand interest-free student loans.  
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• Not so prolific author.

When the going gets weird...the weird turn pro...hunter thompson

When the going gets weird...the weird turn pro...hunter thompson

Well, this explains a lot of the cyberstalking, misogyny, and bullying you see on Lutheran message boards and blogs coming from CPH executive and Lutheran pastor Paul T. McCain.  

LCMS has some explaining to do if this website is funded or expensed to the Missouri Synod or CPH.  

This doesn’t reflect well upon the CPH or the LCMS. 

Even if cyberbrethren is his personal blog site, he’s still an officer of the CPH and by extension he makes the denomination look like stereotypical bitter clingers. 

I’m from the Midwest not the South, we use colorful metaphors to dismiss this kind of behavior, “redneck hillbilly”--- a throwback to another time.  

This is not the appropriate venue to talk about gun prowess precisely because this person is an officer of a publishing house and a pastor who makes frequent mention of it everywhere he presents himself on an international basis.

It’s conduct unbecoming a pastor--especially the VDMA on pistol grips.

“My VDMA 1911 .45 Pistol: An Homage to the Smalcaldic League and the Lutheran Reformation

April 12th, 2011

source:  http://cyberbrethren.com/2011/04/12/my-vdma-1911-45-pistolan-homage-to-the-smalcaldic-league-and-the-lutheran-reformation/

I received a set of custom grips for my 1911 handgun, and decided to have inscribed on them the symbol that was widely used by the Lutheran princes throughout the Reformation era, the famous: VDMA, standing for the Latin motto Verbum Domini Manet in Aeternum. This symbol was inscribed on swords, cannons and armor used by the Smalcaldic League which was formed to be a mutual defense organization, against the Catholic princes trying to overthrow the Reformation in the various territories of Germany that had embraced it.

Here is a photo of my 1911 with my VDMA grips, following that, another brief explanation of the VDMA symbol, as usual for a really large version of the image, click on it and then click on it again and you’ll have it.”

April 12th, 2011 at 21:37 | #5

Reply | Quote

Okay, get mad at me, but this is obscene.

April 13th, 2011 at 00:17 | #12

Reply | Quote

In this day and age it will cause offense to others as it did to me, despite what our Lutheran forefathers did. I think it might have been better to keep that picture to yourself.

With respect, Pastor, I also found this disturbing.

“For though we walk in the flesh, we are not waging war according to the flesh. For the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh but have divine power to destroy strongholds.”

There are many who will not understand the historical context of what you are saying, and will see this as an endorsement of using force to bring the Word of God to people.

This image bothered me, even though I’m a fan of Lutheran history and the wife of a gun collector.

April 13th, 2011 at 10:12 | #19

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This is very creepy…

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    ptmccain 
   
   April 13th, 2011 at 11:17 | #20
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   Why do you say that?
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It’s creepy because you’re not in the same position as the Lutheran princes in the Smalcaldic League who faced the real threat of Catholic aggression. Putting VDMA on a pistol while living in 21st century St. Louis is just silly and, yes, more than a little weird. It’s like those Goth kids in high school who like to pretend they live in the Middle Ages. It’s a phase you hope they grow out of, but apparently some people never stop playing pretend.

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   ptmccain 
   
   April 13th, 2011 at 12:34 | #23 Reply | Quote 
   Thomas, you probably could have made your point, or maybe not, without resorting to silliness, but…regardless…let me assure you that next time I take the 1911 to the range, I will shoot several magazines with great joy, in your honor, celebrating my Christian and American rights and freedom to do so. That you don’t “get it” is unfortunate, but that’s ok. Some people who have an animus over against guns never will. I gladly join the fathers of our faith who placed VDMA on their weapons to remind themselves that their struggle against evil was a struggle for the Word of God’s truth and purity. Precisely because I live in Saint Louis, Missouri, I carry firearms to defend myself and my family, aware, at all times, that while flesh and grass fade, the Word of the Lord endures forever.
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What Luther Says.......False Teachers Are Peacocks

J-642.1

"The peacock is an image of heretics and fanatical spirits. For on the order of the peacock they, too, show themselves and strut about in their gifts, which never are outstanding. But if they could see their feet, that is the foundation of their doctrine, they would be stricken with terror, lower their crests, and humble themselves. To be sure, they, too, suffer from jealousy, because they cannot bear honest and true teachers. They want to be the whole show and want to put up with no one next to them. And they are immeasurably envious, as peacocks are. Finally, they have a raucous and unpleasant voice, that is, their doctrine is bitter and sad for afflicted and godly minds; for it casts consciences down more than it lifts them up and strengthens them." What Luther Says, An Anthology, 3 vols., ed., Ewald Plass, St. Louis: Concordia Publishing House, 1959, II, p. 642. ( ripped off from Ichabod The Glory Has Departed )

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PT McCain, CPH Ambassador and VDMA Pistolero

McCain Still Fueling Ichabod Hits

LCMS SP Harrison's campaign manager, Paul McCain, is  charming everyone on Steadfast Lutherans, just as he has on the ALPB Forum (where he was given a time out, banned, and returned to repeat the same blunders).

McCain:

The First Amendment does not apply at blog sites, they are all moderated, in varying degrees. I’m saying the editors of this blog would be well advised to exercise a bit more responsible oversight re. the comments posted here. Kind of what I already said. I’m totally for the ordination of women, just asking (sic)  anyone. [insert big eye roll here]

Vehse: Paul, the suggestion would be mutual except that your posts on BJS and the other Lutheran blogs provide readers the best opportunity to see just what kind of person currently works as Publisher and Executive Director of Concordia Publishing House and calls himself an “LCMS pastor.”

Wallenstein:

And yet you never allow anyone to post on Cyberbretheren the kinds of comments you regularly post on other people’s blogs. Editor McCain: Why not raise the issues in private with the LCMS pastors who run this site. Thanks.

More Wallenstein:

The LCMS as an organization has way too many internal problems in order to be effective. Most of the blog postings are negative. Where’s the good news? Steadfast, ALPB and Lutherquest have convinced me that the LCMS is full of mean-spirited pastors who are constantly at each others throats. Look at Pastor McCain argue in public with Pastor Scheer and with other “Confessional” pastors over on ALPB. Embarrassing. Blogs such as this one have convinced me that the LCMS is a sick organization that needs to be reformed. Koinonia cannot happen soon enough. Call us laymen impatient, but please consider that we have only been waiting 40+ years for the LCMS to re-tool. Ok, carry on………

Rev. Paul T. McCain : I wish they would be more active, and I’d suggest that Carl Vehse be disinvited from bloviating all over this forum.

Timothy Shenks: What’s this with “they” being more active, as if you don’t know who “they” are? Rev. McCain, you know full well that the BJS webmaster is the same person who administers some of your own personal websites.

Wallenstein: Would Pastor Harrison please rein in Editor McCain. He is making a lot of enemies here and over on ALPB. This onetime Pastor does not reflect well on the public image of CPH. The LCMS pays him handsomely to blog all day. HE is yet another reason why I refuse to give a penny to District or Synod.

The “Willow Creek Lutherans” shun CPH materials in favor of Willow Creek (Duh!). “Confessional” Lutherans are your biggest customers, and you spend hours insulting them on various blogs. How pastoral is that? Way to alienate your customer base, Editor McCain.

Clyde Nehrenz: 

I conclude from all of Mr. McCain's entries on Luther Quest since he imposed himself here, that although holding the prestigious position of Publisher at CPH he is, as a person, simply a nasty little man.

McCain:

Oh, now Clyde, there you go again . . .

For whatever reason, you have spent decades slandering and defaming and bearing false witness against faithful pastors and teachers of our Synod, so you'll have to excuse me if I do not pay much attention to your vituperative remarks here.

Joe Krohn Answers in Public

Saturday, August 20, 2011

Survey Says!

This post is dedicated to those brothers and sisters who may be struggling with the doctrine of justification at Holy Word.  I understand that I have been painted as one who is professing that my faith is a work of mine.  Here is my confession.  You decide. After I posted my response to Holy Word's letter of our impending termination of fellowship, a pastor emailed me the following nine questions regarding my confession.  He asked if I would indulge him in answering them and I did so. Here are the questions and my answers in italics with my commentary following:


1. Did Jesus’ death cover the sins of the entire world?  I think the key is Christ’s righteousness and how it is received. Focusing on the cross especially from our perspective – post Calvary- discombobulates things. This way we can talk of all believers of all time in the same way. However there is still this problem with sin. God promised that Christ would deal with it and He certainly did by atoning for them in mans place.




2. Were the sins of the entire world taken from men and laid upon Jesus?  Again, too much focus on the cross. They were atoned for. As John the Baptist says…the Lamb of God who takes (present tense – ongoing) away the sins of the world…Jesus forgives through faith.


3. Does the righteousness of Christ now stand as the universal substitute before God for the wickedness of mankind?  The righteousness of Christ only benefits those who have faith in Christ; this is as it was from the Garden of Eden until now.


4. Does man’s unbelief and wickedness undo the completed sacrifice on the cross?   


No. 5. What is added to Jesus’ work to complete the work of salvation?  Nothing. Jesus said ‘It is Finished’. [GJ - This question is slanted, like several others, and may tickle the ears of those who equate atonement, justification, and salvation, as DP Buchholz did while pretending to critique the Kokomo debacle.]


6. Is faith a cause of salvation?  No. Or does faith merely appropriate salvation? We are saved by grace for Christ’s sake through faith.


7. Is faith man’s contribution to salvation?  No. This is synergism.


8. Is it man’s responsibility to produce repentance?  He can’t…it is the work of the Holy Ghost worked through the Means of Grace. [GJ - The Holy Spirit works through the Law to foster repentance, and the chief sin, the foundational sin, John 16:8, is unbelief. That said, the "Means of Grace" is man's term for the work of the Gospel in the Word.]


9. Is it man’s responsibility to produce faith?  Same as #8. I can't belabor the point enough that Christ's work of the cross (REDEMPTION) is not the forgiveness of all men's sins.  It is the PAYMENT for them and it is objectively true and for (non-imputed) the benefit of all men of all time.  In Luther's explanation of the Second Article of the Apostle's Creed there is no forgiveness; only redemption.


Remember...the Apostle's Creed is a CONFESSION OF FAITH and the "I, we's and me's' are the believers and NOT all men. "The Second Article. Of Redemption. And in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord; who was conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the Virgin Mary; suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, dead, and buried; He descended into hell; the third day He rose again from the dead; He ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty; from thence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead. What does this mean?


--Answer. I believe that Jesus Christ, true God, begotten of the Father from eternity, and also true man, born of the Virgin Mary, is my Lord, who has redeemed me, a lost and condemned creature, purchased and won [delivered] me from all sins, from death, and from the power of the devil, not with gold or silver, but with His holy, precious blood and with His innocent suffering and death, in order that I may be [wholly] His own, and live under Him in His kingdom, and serve Him in everlasting righteousness, innocence, and blessedness, even as He is risen from the dead, lives and reigns to all eternity. This is most certainly true."


The Resurrection and the Forgiveness of Sins are Third Article of the Apostle's Creed and our true Christian confession of faith.  As believers we are totally reliant on God and specifically the Holy Ghost regarding our salvation.  We are 100% passive.


He does the work from atoning for our sins and working faith, forgiveness, justification and righteousness.  It is outside of us...Christ's righteousness is outside of us and it is only through faith worked by the Holy Spirit that we receive this righteousness; otherwise we die in our sins. (John 8:24)
This was most certainly true for the believers of the Old Testament as well as all of those living in the New Testament. Here is Luther's explanation to the Third Article: The Third Article. Of Sanctification.


I believe in the Holy Ghost; one holy Christian Church, the communion of saints; the forgiveness of sins; the resurrection of the body; and the life everlasting. Amen. What does this mean?


--Answer. I believe that I cannot by my own reason or strength believe in Jesus Christ, my Lord, or come to Him; but the Holy Ghost has called me by the Gospel, enlightened me with His gifts, sanctified and kept me in the true faith; even as He calls, gathers, enlightens, and sanctifies the whole Christian Church on earth, and keeps it with Jesus Christ in the one true faith; in which Christian Church He forgives daily and richly all sins to me and all believers, and at the last day will raise up me and all the dead, and will give to me and to all believers in Christ everlasting life. This is most certainly true.


***


GJ -Joe Krohn is willing to deal with public false doctrine out in the open.


VP Patterson and Ex-SP Gurgle are being underhanded, secretive, and popish - standard WELS clergy behavior. Patterson and his Facebook friend, Tim Glende, are both hotter than Georgia asphalt for UOJ and Church Shrinkage false doctrine.


Gurgle was the finger-puppet for UOJ/CG when he was SP, but he was the dream candidate of "conservatives" when he descended to that office. Mark Schroeder became the new dream candidate of "conservatives" to trick them again. Some pastors do not learn.


This excommunication is another test of whether Lutherans can base their discussions on the two foundational truths of the Scriptures and Confessions:

1. The efficacy of the Word alone.
2. The work of the Gospel through the Means of Grace alone.

The questions above came from a WELS pastor. The Syn Conference pastors are not used to working from the two foundational truths, because their history rests upon a false view of Walther, his toxic amalgamation of Pietistic Enthusiasm and Lutheran doctrine.


Their precious double-justification scheme is identical to Knapp, Schleiermacher, and the Second Day Adventists.


Knapp was a Halle Pietist, very influential, and still in print today.


Schleiermacher was a Halle liberal, the pivotal figure in modern theology, foundational for Karl Barth, the official (adulterous, Marxist) theologian of Fuller Seminary.


Gurgle and Patterson, with their Mequon counterparts, agree completely with the precise wording of the Seventh Day Adventists on justification:

According to the 1888 Message Study Committee ("1888 MSC"), the 1888 message reveals many "fresh, beautiful truths . . . that are not usually understood today."[1] One such "truth" is the concept that Christ's death at the cross accomplished a legal or objective justification which is universally and unconditionally applied to all men.[2] This doctrine is said to derive from the observations that Christ has borne the sins of "all men" and has died the second death for "every man." It is viewed as the basis for the present life enjoyed by all men. This legal justification, also referred to as a corporate justification, is distinguished by its proponents from justification by faith, or "experiential" justification, and should not be taken to imply universal salvation wherein all men would be saved, some even against their will. The especial merit of such universal legal justification, as seen by the spokesmen for the 1888 MSC, is that it provides foundational proof and an earnest of the loving initiative taken by God to bring about man's salvation. When the full import of God's initiative on man's behalf is recognized, it is believed to be pivotal in galvanizing the sinner's complete devotion to, and saving faith in, Christ.

When there is precise agreement with the Seventh Day Adventists on justification, down to the explanation about how justification by faith "works," people should take notice. The Adventists are not Christian.

"Thrivent Not Overwhelmingly Bad."Even with Mark and Avoid Jeske on the Board?

Gausewitz is just a bump in the road, eh Huebner?  For several years now, I have been either passing out packets of information regarding Thrivent's nefarious activities, or have given personal seminars at various churches.  Some churches I have convinced into dumping their ties with Thrivent, because of their ties with the unrepentant.  Other churches and pastors have simply ignored me.  Still others give me the silliest of silly excuses.  One silly excuse came from a local church I was very familiar with.  The pastor said; "But Thrivent does so many GOOD THINGS...."  This is to imply that the good things must somehow outweigh the bad things Thrivent does.  I would like to see this pastor's biblical references for this particular excuse. However, today I ran into the silliest of silly excuses thus far.   It came from my sister-in-law, after a funeral the family had attended. (Her hubby is an LCMS pastor.)  Many weeks ago my wife and I sent them our packet of Thrivent information (as per their request).  I inquired as to why they had not responded to the info we had sent them.   Her response?  "The evidence about Thrivent wasn't overwhelming enough to justify separating from them." OVERWHELMING enough???  Since when did sin have to be overwhelming?  "Thou shalt not overwhelmingly murder?"  And did our Savior die on the cross for only the overwhelming sins???  Where in the Bible are overwhelming sins categorized and classified? I'm sorry, but this excuse just beat all of them.   I took the high road, knowing full well they both were in denial.  However, I stated that I will add more references, links, names and places to my material to show more "overwhelming" evidence. She also stated that they were going to write Thrivent personally to find out what groups Thrivent is involved with and to what degree. {OK, sure.   I'm going to write Beelzebub tomorrow and find out what churches are OK with him and which ones he doesn't like....} Overwhelmingly yours, JJ ---    


Brett Meyer has left a new comment on your post ""Thrivent Not Overwhelmingly Bad."Even with Mark a...": (W)ELS will gladly exchange the lives of a few unborn ELCA called worker babies for a chance at matching funds from the brownie sale. After all, the proceeds from the brownie sale go toward new recess toys for the children Thrivent didn't get a chance finance their dismemberment in the womb.

 Part II

In my search for more OVERWHELMING Thrivent sins, I discovered this article, run just a couple of weeks ago!
(Best part is highlighted....)

Jim James

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Tuesday, August 09, 2011

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TESTING THE FAITH
WND Exclusive
Is your church killing America?
'Holiness preachers help support devil and his diabolical plan to destroy souls'

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Posted: August 07, 2011
5:11 pm Eastern

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WND

Apple Computer is known for its open support of homosexual activism; Johnson & Johnson is a leading provider of abortifacients; and Google's support of probably the most abortion-loving White House administration ever is well-known.

So why is a Christian church denomination using its pension fund to invest in those companies?

That's the question raised by a Wesleyan pastor who says his church is sponsoring immorality by its choice of stocks that comprise the church's pension fund.

Rev. Dale Walker pastors a Wesleyan church congregation in Tennessee and also operates a financial management firm.
What are Christians told to do? Get the "1599 Geneva Bible"
He said he became concerned in June 2008 when he discovered that companies that promote pornography and operate casinos were among those in which the church denomination's pension fund had investments.
He first went to his district superintendent and then he took the issue to a pastor's forum.
"I went to that pastor's forum to share our concerns from the church and I sincerely thought in my heart they did not know about this. As I shared my concerns, I was interrupted by some of the speakers that day as I spoke," Walker explained.


"It became very apparent that he was not pleased with the way the conversation was going. There is really no easy way to say that we as Wesleyan holiness preachers ... help support the devil and his diabolical plan ... to destroy souls," Walker said.

Walker said he believed the pastor's forum was the appropriate place to bring up the issue of his displeasure with the pension fund investment portfolio. He says that he thinks his comments at the forum were omitted from the report that was to be submitted to the denomination's general board.
"So apparently the ability of pastors to be able to profit from abortion, pornography, tobacco, alcohol, gambling, and related issues wasn't something they wanted to deal with at that time," Walker said.
"We're to preach against it in our pulpits but I don't guess we have the ability to talk to our leaders about it," Walker added.

Walker said that he was told that since he didn't participate in the pension plan that he had no right to make comments about the fund.

Listen to Walker:

Walker's district superintendent, Marlon Hotle, said he supports Walker's concerns.
"I understand his concerns and know that he's sincere in his desire to get the denomination to clean up its investments," Hotle said.

Hotle also says the resolution his district is submitting to the general conference is designed so that even if it's ignored on the program, it can still be heard.

"If it's not recommended, then a delegate can stand on the floor and move its adoption. I don't know what the general board will do with it, but we have started the process, submitted that resolution and will call for it to be read if they did not recommend it," Hotle said.

"So one way or the other it will be in the conference," Hotle added.

Walker also said he believes other pastors are in denominations whose retirement funds are also in companies he believes are questionable. He adds that he's sure they don't know it.

"There are thousands of pastors across America working to help the wonderful people in their community and the families that have been affected by abortion, the families that have been affected by alcohol, gambling, all of these things," Walker stated.

"They don't even realize that it's a possibility that their own denomination may be helping to participate in the moral decline and funding the moral decline of America," Walker said.

Walker says Christian financial adviser's Ron Blue's investment firm, Ronald Blue and Company, manages the Wesleyan Church's pension funds. The Wesleyan Pension Fund website also says that Ronald Blue and Associates manages the funds.

Ronald Blue and Company has not responded to WND's request for an interview.
But the the Wesleyan Pension Fund website provides a list of mutual funds that include stock offerings from both domestic and foreign companies.
 
An example is the American Funds Growth Fund of America R3 Fund, which includes stock from Apple Computer, Amazon, DirecTV, and Google. 

Apple Computer is known for its open support of the radical homosexual movement, giving in to activists and removing pro-family "apps" for its iPhone.
 
The Large Cap S&P 500 Index Fund includes established health care, beauty aid and pharmaceutical giant Johnson & Johnson. The Christian investment firm The Timothy Fund reports on its "Hall of Shame" web page that the company is a leading provider of abortifacents.
 
Human Life International confirms that New Jersey-based Johnson & Johnson's partner, Ortho, is the maker of what is technically called a "Low Dose" abortion pill.
 
A survey of other church-related investment portfolios shows that other religious organizations' mutual funds also have holdings in companies that are controversial.

Thrivent Financial for Lutherans' Aggressive Allocation Fund owns stock in Amazon.com, Philip Morris International, Google, DVD rental company Netflix, Johnson & Johnson, and Time Warner Cable, which also appears in The Timothy Fund's "Hall of Shame".

Thrivent Financial has not responded to WND's requests for an interview. 

However, some churches have gotten on the bandwagon of what is called socially conscious investing.

Through a company called Guidestone Financial Resources, the Southern Baptist Convention offers investments that their website claims are in line with Christian values.
Guidestone explains the portfolios are "socially screened."

"Since 1918, Guidestone has been meeting the needs of ministers, church workers, and employees of hospitals, universities, colleges, seminaries, retirement and children's homes, and other institutions. Guidestone is a diversified Christian financial services provider, offering retirement, insurance, investment management, property and casualty coverage," the site said.
Guidestone's prospectus goes into detail on whether the mutual funds consist mostly of government securities, stocks from financial institutions and whether the fund invests the participant's money in assets that have Moody's Triple-A rating.
The prospectus also lists other fund companies that participate in the fund.
The same prospectus however, provides little detail on the actual companies in which the fund's assets are invested.
 
It isn't until the prospective investor clicks on The Portfolio Holdings button on the Prospectus and Reports page that any details of the actual composition of the funds are revealed.
The Holdings document finally tells the clergyman investor that companies like Costco, Hyundai, General Electric, pipeline company Kinder, Morgan Partners and supermarket giant Safeway are among the companies in the fund portfolios.

However, among those companies are cable television and broadcast giant Time-Warner and Amazon.com.
 
Guidestone responded to WND's request for an interview saying, "We cannot comment further than what is provided in the prospectus."