Pietism and UOJ? Jay Webber Jumps Up To Prove the Connection

UOJ is connected to Pietism via Zinzendorf and Halle University.
Bishop Stephan led his cell-group Pietists out of this congregation to America.

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German Wikipedia

Johann Jakob Rambach (* February 24 1693 in Halle (Saale) , † April 19 1735 in Giessen ) was a German Protestant theologian and hymn writer .

He first served an apprenticeship as a carpenter , he was a disciple August Hermann Francke and theologian , later succeeded him as professor , son of Joachim Lange , 1731 Professor and Superintendent in Giessen, editor of a hymn book with many new songs. In the community life of the evangelical church today is primarily still Rambach "I am baptized in your name" by the song (Protestant hymnal No. 200), which is often sung following a baptism present.

Rambach was twice married. He completed his first marriage with Johanna Elisabeth († 1730), the daughter of the professor of theology Joachim Lange . That same year he married again.

Of his daughters are known Charlotte Elizabeth (born June 15, 1727 in Halle (Saale), † September 8, 1761 in Worms, married May 24, 1746 with the pastor in high school in Giessen and Worms Christian Heinrich Nebel († 1786).) ^[1] . Her older sister is the well-known from Goethe's poetry and truth pastor's wife Griesbach ^[2]

Cyberhymnal

Son of Hans Ja­kob Ram­bach, cab­i­net mak­er at Hal­le, Jo­hann left school in 1706, and en­tered his fa­ther’s work­shop. How­ev­er, in the au­tumn of 1707, he dis­lo­cat­ed his an­kle, and dur­ing his re­cov­ery, he turned to his school books, and his de­sire for learn­ing re­a­wak­ened. Ear­ly in 1708, he en­tered the La­tin School of the Hal­le Or­phanage, and on Oc­to­ber 27, 1712, he ma­tric­u­lat­ed at the Un­i­ver­si­ty of Hal­le as a med­i­cal stu­dent. He soon turned his at­tent­ion to the­ol­o­gy, though, and be­came es­pe­ci­al­ly in­ter­est­ed in Old Tes­ta­ment stu­dy un­der J. H. Mi­chael­is. In May 1715, he be­came one of Mi­chael­is’ as­sist­ants, help­ing pre­pare his edi­tion of the He­brew Bi­ble, for which he wrote the com­men­ta­ry on Ruth, Es­ther, Ne­he­mi­ah, and other books. His health be­gan to suf­fer in the spring of 1719, and he ac­cept­ed the in­vi­ta­tion of Count von Henk­el to stay at Pöl­zig, near Ron­ne­burg, where he spent sev­er­al months. By Au­gust, he had re­cov­ered, and went to vi­sit Je­na, where a num­ber of stu­dents had asked him to lec­ture. He set­tled in Je­na in Oc­to­ber 1719, liv­ing in the home of Pro­fess­or Bud­de­us (J. F. Budde). He grad­u­at­ed MA in March 1720, and in 1723 was ap­point­ed ad­junct of the The­o­lo­gic­al fa­cul­ty at Hal­le; as an in­spect­or of the Or­phan­age; in 1726 ex­tra­or­din­a­ry pro­fess­or of the­ol­o­gy; and in 1727, af­ter A. H. Francke’s death, or­din­a­ry pro­fess­or and preach­er at the Schul­kirche. Here he was ve­ry pop­u­lar, both as preach­er and pro­fess­or, but his col­leagues’ jeal­ousy in­duced him to ac­cept an of­fer from Land­grave Ernst Lud­wig of Hess­en, who in 1731 in­vit­ed him to Giess­en as su­per­in­ten­dent and first pro­fess­or of the­ol­o­gy (be­fore leav­ing Halle, he received his Doc­tor of Di­vin­i­ty de­gree on June 28, 1731), and in Au­gust 1732, ap­point­ed him al­so di­rect­or of the Pae­da­go­gi­um at Giess­en. In 1734, he al­most ac­cept­ed an of­fer of the first pro­fess­or­ship of the­ol­o­gy at the new­ly found­ed Un­i­ver­si­ty of Gött­ing­en, but at the re­quest of the Land­grave, de­cid­ed to stay in Giess­en.


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Jay Webber cinches his argument with a quotation from a Halle Pietist:

The 18th-century Lutheran theologian Johann Jacob Rambach makes the following observation in his Ausfuehrliche Erklaerung der Epistel an die Roemer (p. 322), regarding the Lord's payment and satisfaction of sinful humanity's "debt" to God:

"Christ was in his resurrection first of all justified for his own person, Is. 50:5, 1 Tim. 3:16, since the righteousness of God declared that it had been paid and satisfied in full by this our Substitute, and issued him as it were a receipt thereof; and that happened in his resurrection, when he was released from his debtor's prison and set free. But since the Substitute was now justified, then in him also all debtors were co-justified."

Later in that commentary Rambach also writes (in a way that shows that he has 1 Tim. 3:16 in mind):

"The justification of the human race indeed also ocurred, in respect of the acquisition, in one moment, in the moment in which Christ rose and was thus declared righteous; but in respect of the appropriation it still continues till the last day."

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bruce-church (https://bruce-church.myopenid.com/) has left a new comment on your post "Pietism and UOJ? Jay Webber Jumps Up To Prove the...":

Rev. Webber is a smart guy, but Webber is wrong in this case. I think he is confused because UOJers mix Lutheran doctrine in with their UOJ doctrine. They speak of faith acquiring righteousness in the subjective justification step, but strictly according to their UOJ doctrine, there is no acquiring anything by faith, but instead faith only opens their eyes and they realize that they had been justified all along.

That's sound Lutheran doctrine by Rambach--that in respect to acquisition only, Christ acquired forgiveness and righteousness for the entire world (i.e., universal atonement). The point at issue with UOJ is whether the Father declared the entire world righteous at Christ's resurrection. No, he did not. The righteousness remains in heaven, as Luther's treasure quote tells us, and is only distributed to men as they come to faith, and it is taken back if they apostatize.

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GJ - I would express the treasure part a different way, Bruce. The treasure of the Gospel is not locked up in heaven but always distributed by the Holy Spirit through the visible and invisible Gospel Word.

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bruce-church (https://bruce-church.myopenid.com/) has left a new comment on your post "Pietism and UOJ? Jay Webber Jumps Up To Prove the...":

Webber got the Rambach quote from volume III of Walther-Baier, pp. 271-3. Here is another translation of that quote:

J. J. Rambach: “Christ was in his resurrection first of all for his own person made righteous, Isa. 50:5, 1 Tim. 3:16, then the righteousness of God declared that from this our surety may be paid out and we are fully freed, and he is like a receipt given, and this happens in his resurrection; there he leaves his shield-tower and is placed on free feet. There now the surety is justified, thus in him also all debtors will be made righteous.” (Ausführliche Erklärung der Ep. and die Römer, p. 322) 

Notre Dame Just Raised 2 Billion Dollars

Bazingo.

Notre Dame is using its extra money to hire famous professors and give scholarships. My PhD there cost me nothing except giving up a full-time income during coursework and comprehensive exams.

The point is - a private school cannot exist anymore without a lot of extra money in endowments. WELS decided to rob the schools in order to pay for missions. Soon they will have neither.

That happens when the advice of Jesus gets turned around. The WELS leaders have been as innocent as serpents and as wise as doves.

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bruce-church (https://bruce-church.myopenid.com/) has left a new comment on your post "Notre Dame Just Raised 2 Billion Dollars":

Why pay more more money into WELS education when they had that glut of Ph.Ds?! Oh wait, they hardly had one Ph.D. My bad.

Once More with Feeling: UOJ and Church Growth Enthusiasm Go Together

The post below, about UOJ and the Intrepid Lutherans, shows how the false doctrine of UOJ is coming unraveled in WELS and the Little Sect on the Prairie.

UOJ is the natural foundation and fuel for the Church Growth Movement. As Jefferson said in another context, "It is its natural manure."

Lutherans have lost their nerve. They no longer trust the Word of God. They refuse to worship in the beauty of His Holiness. Instead, they mock the Means of Grace by copying the lowest forms of life in Evangelicalism.

Intrepids Open Up UOJ Again, Plus Comments from Readers

Here is the classic, Knapp-Walther UOJ position:

SEPTEMBER 28, 2011 2:45 PM D. Jerome Klotz said... Pastor Rydecki,

I am not sure I am understanding you, and I do not want to misrepresent your position. Are you asserting that the forgiveness is NOT to be pronounced upon the world? Has this world of sinners not truly been reconciled to the Father by the blood and cross of His Son (I Cor. 5:19)? >[GJ - Merging of Atonement and Justification, so the entire world is absolved of sin without the work of the Holy Spirit in the Means of Grace: Enthusiasm.]

To proclaim such forgiveness is not to confuse objective with subjective justification/reconciliation. To proclaim such forgiveness is to deliver the very message of the Gospel, namely, that Christ has died FOR YOU, has risen FOR YOU, and has reconciled YOU to the Father. Repent, be baptized, and believe: YOU ARE FORGIVEN! [GJ - He should say with Walther and Knapp "Be assured you were already forgiven."]

If we, as I understand you to be arguing, are to water down this objective reality of universal objective justification, then what is it that the sinner grasps hold of and clings to in faith? Does the sinner not receive the forgiveness that has already been won for him in Christ? To speak of justification in any other way implies that our faith is in some way contributive to our forgiveness, i.e., either that our sins were not truly paid for until we believed, or that we could not possibly have known that ours sins were forgiven until we believed. The fact is, however, that we can know that our sins are objectively forgiven prior to our subjective act of faith--which is an act worked in us passive sinners by the working of the Holy Spirit through Word and Sacrament. [GJ - Justification by faith waters down the precious "doctrine" of UOJ.]

In sum, without the objective actuality of forgiveness existing apart from faith, we are left with a faith that exists apart from objective forgiveness, i.e., a faith that clings to itself, or imagines that faith somehow actualizes the potential of forgiveness. [GJ - That is the "your faith is in faith" argument of Rolf Preus and other crypto-Universalists.]

Such preaching robs the sinner of assurance and the radical nature of the grace of the Gospel, being freely (perhaps too freely we think) pronounced upon a world of sinners. [GJ - Justification by faith, according to Paul and Luther, robs the sinner? UOJ accuses believers of heresy - very Waltherian.]

Yet, this forgiveness won in Christ is not beneficial to me the sinner until I have received it, through the Word preached, and through the Sacraments administered. Apart from faith in the actual forgiveness won for me in the crucified and risen Christ, I am cut off from Christ and His saving benefits and am condemned to eternal hell and judgment. [GJ - The second justification makes the first one effective. Everyone is absolved, but not really. Roman Catholics teach that everyone is forgiven, but the sins are never paid for. Same kind of double-talk in double-justification.]

I agree with you that we need to safeguard the doctrine of objective justification from abuse (e.g., to equate it with subjective justification). But to turn objective justification into something potential rather than actual--which is what I am understanding you to be saying--is to destroy the Gospel altogether. [GJ - It is and it is not. Do not think about it too long.]

Please correct me if I have misunderstood you, Pastor.

In Christ, Jerome

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GJ - Pastor Rydecki has been irritating the UOJ Stormtroopers with his analysis. Lindee now seems to agree with the Book of Concord, too.

Lindee and Webber both imagine that UOJ came up to "combat synergism" in the 19th century.

David Jay Webber said, rather rudely: "Mr. Lindee is mistaken in about two-thirds of his historical analysis. He is correct that the terminology of objective justification was developed in opposition to synergism in the 19th century, but the context was not the election controversy, and it didn't happen first in the Missouri Synod."

I have shown and proven from the actual text that double-justification came from the Halle Pietist Georg Christian Knapp. The two volumes came from years of lectures at Halle, the German translated into English and published in America in 1831, years before the Kidnapper stepped onto the dock of New Orleans.

"His son, Leonard Woods (1807-1878), was born in West Newbury, Mass., on the 24th of November 1807, and graduated at Union College in 1827 and at Andover Theological Seminary in 1830. His translation of Georg Christian Knapp's Christian Theology (1831-1833) was long used as a text-book in American theological seminaries." SourceBishop Stephan, a cell-group Pietist, led Walther, a cell-group Pietist, to America in 1839, so the double-justification scheme preceded them at Halle, where Stephan studied, and in America.

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Brett Meyer has left a new comment on your post "Intrepid Lutherans: The Case of the Disappearing "...":

Kudos to Klotz and Webber for correctly warning that Justification by Faith Alone is incompatible with Universal Objective Justification and those who reject the false gospel of UOJ have rejected the gospel of the (W)ELS completely.

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AC V has left a new comment on your post "Intrepid Lutherans: The Case of the Disappearing "...":

SimpleMan,

In Curia's paper there is not one reference to the Book of Concord. Perhaps that's the reason why Schaller and Hoenecke could not come to consensus on what 2 Corinthians 5:19's "reconciling" means. I.e. does it refer to "Atonement" per Schaller/F. Pieper (the "traditional view) or to "Justification" per Hoenecke/Meyer/Kuske?

Curia's quote from W.H.T. Dau comes close to what the BoC says:

…the entire doctrine concerning the purpose, counsel, will, and ordination of God pertaining to our redemption, call, justification, and salvation should be taken together; …namely, that God in His purpose and counsel ordained [decreed]: 15] 1. That the human race is truly redeemed and reconciled with God through Christ, who, by His faultless [innocency] obedience, suffering, and death, has merited for us the righteousness which avails before God, and eternal life. 16] 2. That such merit and benefits of Christ shall be presented, offered, and distributed to us through His Word and Sacraments. 17] 3. That by His Holy Ghost, through the Word, when it is preached, heard, and pondered, He will be efficacious and active in us, convert hearts to true repentance, and preserve them in the true faith. 18] 4. That He will justify all those who in true repentance receive Christ by a true faith, and will receive them into grace, the adoption of sons, and the inheritance of eternal life. Etc. 5-8. 27] …. Now, God does not call without means, but through the Word, as He has commanded repentance and remission of sins to be preached in His name, Luke 24:47. St. Paul also testifies to like effect when he writes: We are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us; we pray you in Christ's stead, Be ye reconciled to God. 2 Cor. 5:20. - Formula of Concord, Solid Declaration; Article XI “Election”

Did you catch his concluding remarks:

And so I, for one, choose to stand with Hoenecke and those who view the reconciliation in 2 Cor 5:19 and elsewhere as change of “status” before God, a part of the doctrine of justification and not of the atonement, as such. Is Hoenecke’s view the “official interpretation” of the WELS? That all depends on your definition as to what makes an interpretation “official”. If by “official,” one means the interpretation taught as most correct at our Seminary, then I would have to say, “Yes,” on the basis of my instruction there. If by “official,” one means that it is the interpretation found most often in our Synod’s publications, then I would also have to answer, “Yes.” If by “official,” one means that it is the only interpretation allowed by our Synod, then, of course, I would have to answer, “No,” for we have just recently republished Schaller’s Biblical Christology, unedited and without comment when he expounds his views quoted earlier in this paper. Likewise, an article of his espousing the traditional view, also quoted earlier in this paper, appeared unedited and without comment. translated from German Into English, in our own Wisconsin Lutheran Quarterly in 1975—translated by no one less than a grandson of Adolf Hoenecke!"

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Sherlock Holmes 2929 has left a new comment on your post "Intrepid Lutherans: The Case of the Disappearing "...":

I believe that's part of the problem, Simpleman. What is the official doctrinal statement of the WELS? Is there one? If so, where? This We Believe? The WELS Seminary essay file?

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LutherRocks has left a new comment on your post "Intrepid Lutherans: The Case of the Disappearing "...":

We know there were no righteous people in Sodom and Gomorrah when God judged, condemned and destroyed them. But the UOJ gang says they are justified=forgiven.

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SimpleMan has left a new comment on your post "Intrepid Lutherans: The Case of the Disappearing "...":

I'm not sure when objective justification became an official teaching of the WELS. There's even an essay in the WELS seminary files which says that while it is taught, yet it is not an official teaching of the WELS.
http://www.wlsessays.net/files/CuriaCorinthians.rtf

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AC V has left a new comment on your post "Intrepid Lutherans: The Case of the Disappearing "...":

If these men were to debate the issue, whom would you back?

Becker (20th century WELS theologian:

"If justification is universal, it must of necessity be objective. For if the sins of all men have been forgiven in the heart of God, then men are forgiven by God whether they believe it or not."

Abraham Calovius (17th century orthodox Lutheran theologian):

"Although Christ has acquired for us the remission of sins, justification, and sonship, God just the same does not justify us prior to our faith. Nor do we become God’s children in Christ in such a way that justification in the mind of God takes place before we believe."

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Brett Meyer has left a new comment on your post "Intrepid Lutherans: The Case of the Disappearing "...":

Dr. Klotz states, "To argue otherwise is as arrogant as the petulant child who refuses to believe his father's promise, "Dinner is ready!" and foolishly imagines instead that his dinner did not exist prior to entering his mouth!"

Pastor Rydecki responds, "This is just getting foolish. I don't know who's saying what you say here. I've said all along that forgiveness has been acquired by Christ for all. Faith does not "create" forgiveness."

October 11, 2011 8:20PM
http://www.intrepidlutherans.com/2011/09/fraternal-dialogue-on-topic-of.html?showComment=1318394449665#comment-c8420523970004157927

To answer Pastor Rydecki - Your (W)ELS District President, Pastor Jon Buchholz teaches in his 2005 Convention keynote essay what Dr. Klotz is confessing in his defense of UOJ - which, by the way, is the official teaching of the Synod which the Intrepids are in fellowship with.

"God has declared the entire world righteous." This statement is true, as we understand it to mean that God has rendered a verdict of "not-guilty" toward the entire world. It is also true—and must be taught—that the righteousness of Christ now stands in place of the world’s sin; this is the whole point of what Jesus did for us at Calvary. However, once again we’re wresting a term out of its usual context. In Scripture the term "righteous" usually refers to believers." Page 9
http://www.wlsessays.net/node/390

It's only fair to include (W)ELS' beloved Siegbert W. Becker as one who also taught the false gospel of UOJ to it's fullest.

"If justification is universal, it must of necessity be objective. For if the sins of all men have been forgiven in the heart of God, then men are forgiven by God whether they believe it or not." Page 1
http://www.wlsessays.net/node/142

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Brett Meyer has left a new comment on your post "Intrepid Lutherans: The Case of the Disappearing "...":

Pastor Rydecki has been, by the grace of God, faithful in the rebuke of the false gospel of Universal Objective Justification (UOJ) and teaching of Justification by Faith Alone.

It is important to note that while he is making such a good confession he is also opposing the official teachings of the (W)ELS. Dr. Jerome H. Klotz is well versed in the teaching of UOJ and is applying every nuance of its promotion that the Sausage Factory has endorsed. His statement on Oct 11, 2011 7:26PM captures the sentiment well, "Don't they teach this stuff in the seminary???"

http://www.intrepidlutherans.com/2011/09/fraternal-dialogue-on-topic-of.html?showComment=1318393741487#comment-c2071646607328906445

Steve Jobs: An impartial look at the early days « Churchmouse Campanologist

Steve Jobs: An impartial look at the early days « Churchmouse Campanologist:

Conclusion: Steve Jobs was a great front man, a shrewd businessman and on the cutting edge of technological advancement.  However, although he co-developed and owned patents, he cannot be likened to — and, yes, these comparisons have all been made in the past week — Leonardo da Vinci, Isaac Newton, Johannes Gutenberg, Alexander Graham Bell or Thomas Edison.

'via Blog this'

Intrepid Lutherans: The Case of the Disappearing "Testament:" Modern Bible Translations and Covenantal Theology -- Part 1

Intrepid Lutherans: The Case of the Disappearing "Testament:" Modern Bible Translations and Covenantal Theology -- Part 1:

'via Blog this'

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GJ - The Intrepids have been echoing my posts lately. The Slander Machine at the Love Shack will have to be turned up a few notches.

First Thoughts on Walther Movie – Necessary Roughness

First Thoughts on Walther Movie – Necessary Roughness:

'via Blog this'

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GJ - I asked Dan at NR about the movie. Just as I suspected, the propaganda piece is more deceitful than one of Stalin's own efforts.

There is no mention of Walther rushing to take an early ship because he was wanted by police, who had arrest warrants, for kidnapping his niece and nephew - who died in America.

He involved his lawyers, Vehse and Marbach, in hiding the children from the authorities.

He also involved his future mother-in-law, who was arrested for that very reason.

Walther organized the mob of 300 who came to Perryville to threaten, rob, and kidnap the bishop - while deposing him.

There was a plan to send Bishop Stephan across the Mississippi in a rowboat, but the flood-swollen and debris-choked river did not allow for that. Stephan reported that he was taken across on a ferry, guarded by armed men. In other words, Walther arranged a third kidnapping, unrepentant (but forgiven!) about the first felonies.

The mob stole all of the Stephan's gold coins, all his books and clothing, except for a few things. They had not paid his salary, but they decided he owed them all that money.

Portraying Walther as a brave and faithful leader is simply deceitful, because the insiders know better. Stephan probably had syphilis, which can spread to partners while the carrier is symptom-free. He had many ailments, which could have been from VD. He had three deaf daughters, suggesting that he gave it to his wife, who suffered herself and passed it on to her daughters.

The police investigated Stephan over a long period of time. Court testimony just before he went to America shows that he had multiple flings while also keeping one mistress and rejecting his wife.

Walther had to know this before leaving for America, but he had his demons, and Stephan had his own.

However, Walther's unethical and unChristian behavior became the template for the Synodical Conference. Whenever it suits a Syn Conference leader, someone is denounced as a false teacher, robbed, and driven away.

Walther alienated many Lutheran groups with this approach. Stephan was a "false teacher"? Why did the pastors crossing the ocean pledge their obedience to Stephan as their bishop?

The Missouri leaders were "schocked" about his infidelities? Please. He was famous for living with his mistress at the spa, his late-night walks with ladies, his girfriend installed in the attic - all in Dresden. He arranged for his mistress to come over on the ship but left everyone else, except his son, in Dresden.

Birthday - 90th - of Davey and Goliath Creator

Gumby Animator Art Clokey Dies At 89 In California | Fox News:

'via Blog this'

Pastor John Parcher, WELS, RIP

John L. Parcher, 77, died Saturday, Oct. 8, 2011, peacefully at his home.

He was born in Flint, Mich. March 4, 1934. John served as a parish pastor from 1960 to 2002. He married Verlaine Ann Krueger June 12, 1960, in New London, Wis. John has resided in La Crosse since 1968.

He is survived by his wife; eighteen children; many grandchildren; great-grandchildren; and one sister.

Private family services will be held at Immanuel Lutheran Church and burial will be in the Mormon Coulee Memorial Park Cemetery. Online condolences may be given to the family at www.dickinsonfuneralhomes.com.

Read more: http://lacrossetribune.com/lifestyles/announcements/obituaries/article_c21f55cc-f1f5-11e0-952c-001cc4c002e0.html#ixzz1aW8kRRgp

Luther Rocks: Both Sides Now

Luther Rocks: Both Sides Now:

TUESDAY, OCTOBER 11, 2011

Both Sides Now

Both sides of the discussion succinctly put here on Intrepid Lutherans:

D. Jerome Klotz said...

Pastor Rydecki,

I am not sure I am understanding you, and I do not want to misrepresent your position. Are you asserting that the forgiveness is NOT to be pronounced upon the world? Has this world of sinners not truly been reconciled to the Father by the blood and cross of His Son (I Cor. 5:19)?

To proclaim such forgiveness is not to confuse objective with subjective justification/reconciliation. To proclaim such forgiveness is to deliver the very message of the Gospel, namely, that Christ has died FOR YOU, has risen FOR YOU, and has reconciled YOU to the Father. Repent, be baptized, and believe: YOU ARE FORGIVEN!

If we, as I understand you to be arguing, are to water down this objective reality of universal objective justification, then what is it that the sinner grasps hold of and clings to in faith? Does the sinner not receive the forgiveness that has already been won for him in Christ? To speak of justification in any other way implies that our faith is in some way contributive to our forgiveness, i.e., either that our sins were not truly paid for until we believed, or that we could not possibly have known that ours sins were forgiven until we believed. The fact is, however, that we can know that our sins are objectively forgiven prior to our subjective act of faith--which is an act worked in us passive sinners by the working of the Holy Spirit through Word and Sacrament.

In sum, without the objective actuality of forgiveness existing apart from faith, we are left with a faith that exists apart from objective forgiveness, i.e., a faith that clings to itself, or imagines that faith somehow actualizes the potential of forgiveness.

Such preaching robs the sinner of assurance and the radical nature of the grace of the Gospel, being freely (perhaps too freely we think) pronounced upon a world of sinners.

Yet, this forgiveness won in Christ is not beneficial to me the sinner until I have received it, through the Word preached, and through the Sacraments administered. Apart from faith in the actual forgiveness won for me in the crucified and risen Christ, I am cut off from Christ and His saving benefits and am condemned to eternal hell and judgment.

I agree with you that we need to safeguard the doctrine of objective justification from abuse (e.g., to equate it with subjective justification). But to turn objective justification into something potential rather than actual--which is what I am understanding you to be saying--is to destroy the Gospel altogether.

Please correct me if I have misunderstood you, Pastor.

In Christ,
Jerome
October 9, 2011 11:56 AM

Rev. Paul A. Rydecki said... 

Jerome,

I appreciate the opportunity to explain. I'll try to answer your questions as best I can.

Are you asserting that the forgiveness is NOT to be pronounced upon the world? Has this world of sinners not truly been reconciled to the Father by the blood and cross of His Son (I Cor. 5:19)?

I am asserting that the message of Christ is to be pronounced to the world: "Repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name, etc." (Luke 24). I am asserting that it is not a proper presentation of the Gospel to preach to a group of unbelievers, "You are already forgiven! You are already reconciled!" This was not the message of Peter on Pentecost, nor the message of Paul in Philippi, nor the message of Paul at Athens, or anywhere else as recorded in Scripture.

Peter's preaching on Pentecost was not, "Repent, be baptized, believe, you are forgiven!" It was "Repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of sins." All I'm saying is, the two are not the same, and we should stick with the apostolic Gospel proclamation.

Both Peter and Paul preached Christ. They didn't preach the pre-forgiveness of their audience, but rather the substitionary sacrifice of Christ, the satisfaction of God's wrath against the world in the objective atonement of Christ, the finished redemption of Christ, the reconciliation of the world to God in Christ, and the righteousness of Christ as the only righteousness that avails before God, revealed in the Gospel for men to receive by faith, by which a man is justified.

Is the forgiveness that Christ has acquired for all an objective reality? Yes it is! It exists objectively in Christ, and is earnestly offered by God to all in the promise of the Gospel.

what is it that the sinner grasps hold of and clings to in faith?

The answer is Christ - Christ as the God-Man, Christ as the Righteousness that avails before God and has made satisfaction for the world's sins, Christ, in whom the Father wants all men to take shelter from his righteous wrath. That is the object of faith. The object of faith is not MY forgiveness, or MY justification, but the forgiveness/justification that Christ has obtained FOR ME and that is freely offered TO ME in the promise of the Gospel. The righteousness of Christ is imputed to faith, not to the world apart from faith. Those who seek shelter in the redemption of Christ have a "righteous" status before God. Those who fail to seek shelter in the redemption of Christ have a status of "wicked" before God.

This is how the Scriptures and the Confessions teach us to speak. I don't think that terms like "universal objective justification" follow the pattern of sound words to which we are to adhere.

But the problem also lies in the fact that there are about a half-dozen different understandings of "objective justification." Here's a definition I read recently: "Objective justification means that in the death of Jesus the sins of the whole world were charged to His account in order that His righteousness might be credited to the world." I agree with the concept expressed in this way. It agrees with Paul's presentation of justification in Romans perfectly. But I think that many people would change this definition to read, "...and that His righteousness has been credited to the world." That I don't find in Scripture.

Sorry if I haven't covered everything you asked about. Happy to discuss some more.
October 9, 2011 1:47 PM

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The Bubble Nebula

Explanation: It's the bubble versus the cloud. NGC 7635, the Bubble Nebula, is being pushed out by the stellar wind of massive central star BD+602522. Next door, though, lives a giant molecular cloud, visible to the right. At this place in space, an irresistible force meets an immovable object in an interesting way. The cloudis able to contain the expansion of the bubble gas, but gets blasted by the hot radiation from the bubble's central star. The radiation heats up dense regions of the molecular cloud causing it to glow. The Bubble Nebula, pictured above in scientifically mapped colors to bring up contrast, is about 10 light-years across and part of a much larger complex of stars and shells. The Bubble Nebula can be seen with a small telescope towards the constellation of the Queen of Aethiopia (Cassiopeia).


http://129.164.179.22/apod/ap111011.html

R. Schultz on Denominational Leaders

rlschultz has left a new comment on your post "Joe Krohn Touches on the Real Issue: Not Only Fals...":

It is difficult for some laity to believe that denominational leaders can be so brutal and dishonest. They may falsely assume that their sect will protect from the evil world which lurks outside the church walls. Carnal sins are certainly capable of ultimately producing unbelief, when left unchecked by the proper use of Law and Gospel.

Staying busy with church work can produce a type of complacency where private study of the Word is substituted with busy work. Congregational operation should be orderly and decent, but not just for the sake of the congregation. Larger congregations always run the risk of producing cliques and yes-men. Satan would much rather deceive with false doctrine from leaders than with pet sins.
There used to be a time when we were often reminded that sanctification always follows justification:
Bane and blessing, pain and pleasure
by the Cross are sanctified.

Now, we get how-to __________ Bible studies instead of study of the Lutheran Confessions.

I am convinced that many leaders are afraid that if more laity studied the BOC, their little fiefdoms would fall apart. Christians with doctrinal discernment would wield the Sword of the Spirit. Only the Holy Spirit, through the Means of Grace, can produce a fearless faith that will stand up to bullying, apostate leaders.

Joe Krohn Touches on the Real Issue: Not Only False Doctrine, But Unbelief

Copying is the highest form of flattery,
and Tim Glende copies with glee.

LutherRocks has left a new comment on your post "Church Status « Light from Light":

Glende, Ski and the DP are symptoms of the greater problem. Just as Patterson and his DP are symptoms. The root cause is the false doctrine being taught at the seminary. Their false view of justification enables your 'axis' to teach upside down evangelism which goes hand in hand with the emergent church model. The whole of the visible church is already prostituting itself with the state...that harlot from the Revelation of St. John.

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GJ - WELS, Missouri, and the Little Sect on the Prairie have been in hot pursuit of false doctrine because the efficacy of the Word in the Means of Grace has been taught out of them. They have no trust in the Gospel itself, so a large group of professors and synodical drones are de facto unbelievers. That explains their obnoxious, brutal, and deceitful behavior, whether we are talking about Pope John the Malefactor in the ELS, the real estate moguls in the LCMS, or the disgraceful DPs and their helpless leader.

All of them would protest that they really are believers but their actions teach otherwise. I have used this blog to show the isolated and alienated that they are not alone. This is not only a pan-Lutheran problem but also a pan-denominational problem. The extent of the depravity is shown by the way the vast majority tolerate the evil.

True, 10% of the ELCA members have left already, but that should really be 90 to 98%. ELCA is crowing "Full Speed Ahead" in its magazine, because the Queen of the Seas is running at flank speed. The retired ELCA bishops are using a time machine to recreate the ALC and LCA of a few years ago, a more dilute form of poison.

The Olde Synodical Conference hangs its head in sorrow for the apostasy of ELCA, but they work closely with ELCA at many different levels. ELCA works with everyone, but so do the others. WELS has funded the United Nations and the Salvation Army.

All the Lutheran groups are mainline sects following the implicit Universalism of Knapp. So nothing is left but law mongering. ELCA hammers the law in promoting political fads. Dysfunctional WELS ministers, who treat their members like dirt, are going to "transform their communities" with law-mongering borrowed from the open Enthusiasts, crackpots who despise the Gospel but love themselves.

ELCA bishops value ecumenical partners, consider critical mission topics - News Releases - Evangelical Lutheran Church in America

Don't cross the queen.

ELCA bishops value ecumenical partners, consider critical mission topics - News Releases - Evangelical Lutheran Church in America: " CHICAGO (ELCA) -


"We are exceedingly grateful" for the two churches' full communion partnership, the Most Rev. Dr. Katharine Jefferts Schori told the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA) Conference of Bishops during its meeting here Sept. 29-Oct. 4.

The ELCA Conference of Bishops is an advisory body of the church that includes the ELCA's synod bishops, presiding bishop and secretary.

Jefferts Schori, presiding bishop of the 2.4 million-member Episcopal Church, spoke to ELCA bishops about the ecumenical opportunities for shared mission work."

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Spaude Turns Down Michigan Lutheran Seminary. Tim Glende Would Be a Good Candidate

Tim Glende could be a shepherd of tender youth.
Here is he advising Katy Perry on how to dress more modestly.

Michigan Lutheran Seminary The Rev. Timothy Spaude of St. Jacobi Lutheran Church, Greenfield, Wisconsin, announced to his congregation Sunday, October 9, that the Holy Spirit has led him to decline our governing board’s call for him to become the next president of Michigan Lutheran Seminary. The governing board called Pastor Spaude at its September 9 fall meeting on campus. The MLS Governing Board will meet by teleconference next week, probably on Tuesday, October 18, to issue another call from its list of candidates.

Ask an Expert from Fuller Seminary: The WELS Fuller Experts Know This - They Never Went to Fuller!

AC V has left a new comment on your post "Rick Techlin Situation Shows Pathetic Wobble of WE...":

This is interesting:

My Take: This evangelical says Mormonism isn’t a cult

Editor’s note: Richard J. Mouw is President of Fuller Theological Seminary, an evangelical school in Pasadena, California.

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/10/09/my-take-this-evangelical-says-mormonism-isnt-a-cult/?hpt=hp_t2

Rick Techlin Situation Shows Pathetic Wobble of WELS: Tim Glende, Ski, and Doug Englebrecht as Enthusiasts

Mark Jeske is driving this bus.

Brett Meyer has left a new comment on your post "Church Status « Light from Light":

Certainly shows how split the entire Synod is in doctrine and practice. Glende and Patterson have simply been teaching and acting as they've been taught in the (W)ELS college and Seminary. Just as the current students will when they get their chance at exercising excellence in making disciples. It's also been a great example at just how impotent the Synod administration, clergy and laity are in dealing with the doctrine and practice of the Baptists, Methodists and New Age Religion in their churches. What a pathetic display. 

Luther Rocks: Occupy The WELS

Luther Rocks: Occupy The WELS:

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GJ - People are shocked at the abusive behavior of The Episcopal Church, USA, earmarking $22 million to sue their own congregations and ministers.

The behavior of leaders in WELS, Missouri, and the Little Sect on the Prairie is no different. They are unbelievers. They will protest that label, but nothing else explains their greed and their timidity in promoting sound doctrine. Nevertheless, they are lions when it comes to defending false doctrine.

Gephart Funeral Home: Obituaries - Pastor John (Slick) Brenner, 94 Years Old

Gephart Funeral Home: Obituaries: "Pastor John F. Brenner
(August 10, 1917 - October 7, 2011)




Pastor John F. Brenner

John Frederick Brenner, the only son of Pastor John W.O. Brenner and his wife, Anna F. (Raether), was born on August 10, 1917, in Milwaukee Wisconsin, and was called home to heaven on Friday, October 7, 2011 in Bay City, Michigan at Brian’s House. John was baptized by his father on August 22, 1917, and confirmed in the faith on May 22, 1932. He attended elementary school at St. John Lutheran School, enrolled in 1932 in the preparatory department of Northwestern College in Watertown, Wisconsin, and graduated from the college in 1940. Pastor Brenner finished his formal training for the pastoral ministry at Wisconsin Lutheran Seminary, Thiensville, Wisconsin in 1943."

Since there were not enough pastoral calls for the graduates during the World War II years, Pastor Brenner taught in the one-room classroom at Calvary Lutheran School, Thiensville from the fall of 1943 until April of 1944. At that time he received and accepted his first call into the pastoral ministry. During his forty-seven years as a Lutheran pastor, he was privileged to serve congregations in Hillrose, Colorado (Trinity, 1944-1946), Pewaukee, Wisconsin (Christ, 1946-1949), Battle Creek, Michigan (St. John, 1949-1953) and Bay City, Michigan (St. John, 1953-1990.) After his retirement from the public ministry he became a member of St. Paul’s Lutheran Church in Saginaw.

Pastor Brenner also served in various capacities on both the synodical and district levels in the WELS. One of the great joys of his ministry was serving as a supervisor in the Wisconsin Lutheran Seminary vicar program from 1970-1985. Fifteen seminarians spent their vicar year with him at St. John in Bay City.

On August 29, 1945, John married Ruth H. Frey, daughter of Pastor Immanuel P. and Elizabeth H. (Janz) Frey, in Denver, Colorado. Ruth faithfully served as his helpmeet through more than 56 years of marriage, until she passed away on December 21, 2001. Together John and Ruth loved to open their home to young pastors and their families, offering them support, friendship and mentoring. They both were grateful for God’s blessings through service to the church, and freely encouraged both those serving in the ministry and those preparing for service.

Their marriage was blessed with four children: Ann (Raymond) Arnold, Brown Deer, Wisconsin; Deborah Priebe, Bay City, Michigan; Prof. John M. (Patricia) Brenner, Mequon, Wisconsin; Barbara (Pastor Marcus) Manthey, Saginaw, Michigan; nine grandchildren: Pastor Matthew (Elisabeth) Arnold, Oconto Falls, Wisconsin; Laura Biesterfeld, Milwaukee, Wisconsin; Sarah (John) Heathcock, Racine, Wisconsin, Michael (Lisa) Priebe, Saginaw, Michigan; Benjamin (Natalie) Priebe, West Melbourne, Florida; Jessica (Daniel) Hill, Saginaw, Michigan; Katie (Mathew) Visaggio, North Fort Myers, Florida; Mollie Priebe, Bay City, Michigan; Nathanael Brenner, Mequon Wisconsin; and fourteen great-grandchildren: Christian, Noah, Peter and Emma Arnold; Micah, Jacob and Grace Biesterfeld; Lauren and Julia Heathcock; Logan Priebe; Arabella Priebe; Silas and Adelaide Hill; and Laura Visaggio. A fifteenth grandchild, Baby Boy Priebe, is expected in January 2012. Pastor Brenner is also survived by a number of brothers-in-law and sisters-in-law and many nieces and nephews.

He was preceded in death by his wife, Ruth (2001); his parents, Pastor John (1962) and Anna (1979) Brenner; his sister, Dorothy Brenner (1989); his son-in-law, David Priebe (2009); and numerous sisters-in-law and brothers-in-law.

Visitation will take place at Gephart Funeral Home on Midland Street in Bay City on Thursday, October 13, from 7-9 p.m. and on Friday, October 14, from 2-9 p.m., as well as at the church an hour prior to the funeral service. The Funeral and Rite of Committal will take place at 1:00 p.m. on Saturday, October 15, 2011 at St. John Lutheran Church, Mountain and Jane Streets in Bay City. Officiating will be Pastor William Brassow and Pastor Carl Otto of St. Paul’s Lutheran Church in Saginaw with private interment in Oak Ridge Cemetery

In lieu of flowers, memorials may be made to: the Michigan Lutheran Seminary Foundation to establish a scholarship or grant in memory of Pastor John and Ruth Brenner for students continuing in preparation for the public ministry; to the St. Paul’s Lutheran Church (Saginaw) Ministerial Education Endowment Fund, or to the St. John Lutheran Church (Bay City) Ministerial Student Trust Fund.

The family wishes to thank those that cared for John at Luther Manor in Saginaw this past year and at Brian’s House in Bay City the last two days of his earthly life. We rejoice that our father, grandfather and great-grandfather is safe at home with our Savior and we joyfully await the blessed reunion in heaven! “For me to live is Christ, and to die is gain!” Philippians 1:21

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GJ - I found John Brenner to be immensely likable - frank, funny, and willing to stand up for sound doctrine. The Shrinkers hated him and called him a "legalist" behind his back.

Anyone can see the shift from men like Brenner and Corky. Brug and Sparky Brenner (Slick's son) are both get-along go-along guys. That entire generation has undone anything good accomplished before. Look at John Lawrenz compared to his father, Mark Jeske a worse version of his father.

Church Status « Light from Light

Church Status « Light from Light:

Saint Peter Evangelical Lutheran Church in Freedom, WI (WELS) was my life-long home congregation.  (St. Peter’s daughter congregation is The CORE in Appleton, WI).

In the Spring of 2011, the leadership of St. Peter Congregation terminated my fellowship with the WELS as a persistent errorist based on two letters that I wrote.  Those two letters are linked below:

• Letter to Pastors and Church Council
• Letter to WELS Conference of Presidents

They said in a certified letter that they removed me as a persistent errorist because in those letters I publicly disagreed with Pastor Glende and the Northern Wisconsin District Presidium on three doctrinal issues:

1. I said that plagiarism was a sin, and that Pastor Glende was guilty of plagiarism.
2. I said that God does not need our service: in other words, the means of grace are sufficient.
3. I said that in the light of faith Christians cannot choose to believe God’s Word: in other words, from beginning to end, faith is 100% the gift of God.

Because I believed that these positions were not doctrinal error, I appealed.  However, the Northern Wisconsin District Appeal Board denied my appeal without explanation.  (Because the Appeal Board’s written decision contained no explanation, I believe their decision was based on politics, not principle).  Now, I have three choices:

1. Sin against my conscience by renouncing the above true Christian doctrine, and then presumably rejoin St. Peter Congregation.
2. Refuse to publicly recant the true Christian doctrine, and remain excluded from the WELS forever.  (The WELS Constitution §§ 8.30(c) and 8.50(e) would forbid my return).
3. Disregard the District Appeal Board’s ruling and the WELS Constitution (§§ 8.30(c) and 8.50(e)), and continue indefinitely in triangular fellowship with other WELS congregations who agree with me in doctrine.  (Currently, this is where I am).

In summary, the leadership of St. Peter Congregation terminated my fellowship with the WELS because I questioned the methodology and doctrine of Pastors Glende and Skorzewski and the Northern Wisconsin District Presidium’s defense of their false doctrine and practice.

I did my best to resolve these issues in a brotherly way by spending years attempting to meet privately, and then after years of private effort, by ultimately bringing these concerns to the Church.  In return, the leadership of St. Peter Congregation terminated my fellowship with the WELS as a persistent errorist.

Lord, have mercy.

For further reading:

• WELS Northern WI District Doctrinal Issues
• Terminated from WELS Fellowship
• Receiving Holy Communion in the WELS
• WELS Appeal Denied

• Category Page — St. Peter & The CORE

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WELS church lady has left a new comment on your post "Church Status « Light from Light":

Brother Rick, bet it all on number 3! It has been my understanding that more than one WELS congregation has offered communion and thus has extended a bold act of Christian love. This is a testament that validates the fact that a significant portion of pastors and laity alike are standing against the Glende, Ski, and DP axis. This speaks tremendeous volumes. What can the DP do? Shut down these other churches that are in fellowship with Rick. No! That would be World War III. May God be with Rick and his family.

In Christ,
Rebecca