Calov, Gerhard, and Quenstedt: Are These Men Addressing Huberism? Note the Quotations All from Preus' Book on Justification

AC V has left a new comment on your post "Digging Up an Obscure Theologian: AC V Has a Busy ...":

Another quotable quote from Hardt's paper:

...Huber insists that certain Pauline statements expressly make use of a universal justification terminology, which his opponents deny: "Never does Paul teach universal justification. For as far as concerns 2 Corinthians 5, the words ‘not imputing their trespasses unto them,’ they are not to be understood universally about all men regardless of faith.”39

The "opponents" (i.e. orthodox Wittenberg theologians) would have taken Hoenecke/Meyer/Kuske/Bivens to task because that's how they take 2 Corinthians 5. Here's what Bivens said in the October 2011 "Forward in Christ":

We're told in 2 Corinthians 5:18,19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, "not counting men's sins against them." The forgiveness of the world's sins is a universal reality to be announced and believed individually....The astonishing reality is that God has forgiven the sins of the whole world, whether people believe it or not.

Huberism?

AC V has left a new comment on your post "Digging Up an Obscure Theologian: AC V Has a Busy ...":

Re:

“...called universal justification that whereby God, considering the satisfaction of Christ, has because of this become propitiated toward all mankind, accepting it as if everyone had made satisfaction for himself.“


Should UOJ now properly be called "Huberism"?

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bruce-church (https://bruce-church.myopenid.com/) has left a new comment on your post "Digging Up an Obscure Theologian: AC V Has a Busy ...":

I suppose you noticed how Hardt came up with his own theory as to why Huber's teaching was rejected by Wittenberg. Hardt maintains that Wittenberg had no problem with UOJ so Huber must have gotten UOJ a bit wrong. Yeah, right! If you believe that, then you've probably already bought the Brooklyn Bridge and swamp land in Florida:

http://luk.se/Justification-Easter.htm 

Digging Up an Obscure Theologian: AC V Has a Busy Shovel

AC V has left a new comment on your post "AC V Quotes Luther on Justification by Faith. UOJ ...":

Rev. Jackson, give us a little history lesson on Samuel Huber (c. 1547-1624), professor at the University of Wittenberg circa 1592.

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Tom Hardt has his own little claque in the Olde Synodical Conference. He wrote about Huber, perhaps the first Lutheran UOJ Stormtrooper. Huber was charged with Universalism.

Our investigation will be limited to the question concerning justification, leaving aside other aspects.²³ Huber’s attempt to argue for the notion of a universal justification with reference to certain Scripture passages and to God’s universal will to save all men was met by firm opposition from men such as Egidius Hunnius, Polycarp Leyser and Samuel Gesner. They referred to the fact that the Lutheran confessions did not know of any such concept.²⁴ When confronted with Huber’s interpretation of Romans 5:19b, where he understands “all” to include also unbelievers, his opponents introduce a distinction, saying that “condemnation as far as it concerns the debt belongs to all men but as far as concerns its execution (‘ACTU’) belongs only to impenitents and unbelievers. So the offer of God’s grace and Christ’s merit is universal but as far as it concerns its execution (‘ACTU’) it is limited to believers only, who are excluded from condemnation through the benefaction of Christ, grasped by faith.“²⁵ Hunnius et alii thus do not reject the idea of a universally valid grace. Against Huber, however, they reject the idea that somehow this grace would already be conferred on the individuals through the universality of atonement, a notion that they think to be present in Huber’s works. Huber rejects this accusation as a calumniation, assuring that he has only “called universal justification that whereby God, considering the satisfaction of Christ, has because of this become propitiated toward all mankind, accepting it as if everyone had made satisfaction for himself.“²⁶He assures that every individual must partake of this gift by faith in the Word and the sacraments.²⁷ On the surface this seems to be an assuring convergence of views, which explains the temporary reconciliation between the parties.²⁸

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 Here is another quotation and source linked here: 11. The Huber Controversy (1595). — Samuel Huber, a Reformed preacher in the canton of Berne, became involved in a controversy with Wolfg. Mnsctdus about election, by transcending the Lutheran doctrine, and affirming that all men are predestinated unto salvation, though, through their own fault, all will not be saved. Banished from Berne, he joined the Lutheran Church, and was appointed a preacher in Wiirtemberg. There he accused Prof. Gerlach of Crypto-Calvinism, because he taught that only believers were predestinated to salvation. The controversy was stopped by his being called to Wittenberg. But he thought he discovered similar Crypto-Calvinism in his colleagues there (Polyc. Leyscr and uEgidiusHunnius), and opposed it. All the disputations and conferences upon the subject failed to change his views; and as parties arose among the students, he was dismissed from Wittenberg. He continued the controversy with increasing virulence, and wandered about in Germany many years, endeavoring to propagate his views, but without success. (06. 1624.)

Pan-Religious Thrivent (Appleton Headquarters) Funds WELS Estate Grabbing Seminars

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_your_base_are_belong_to_us

WELS promotes estate-grabbing seminars, complete with a free lunch. But that lunch and the seminar are "made possible with a Thrivent grant."

Thrivent is doing the same for ELCA and the LCMS. I imagine the new program designed to save the Little Sect on the Prairie from extinction is also Thrivent-funded. Thrivent has paid for many different pan-Lutheran events.

The question lingers on our minds - How good is WELS in managing all that loot? The MilCraft estate was wrecked by WELS (DP Gurgle) so the widow sued in court and won. WELS became insolvent while Marvin Schwan's estate was showering tons of money on the sect (SP Gurgle).

Thrivent may be the main reason why Missouri and WELS do not face the music about their free-spending ways and paltry offerings. Thrivent will gladly hand out a grant--with strings attached--to find out why that is so.

One estate-grabber said WELS is involved with:

• Moving into the PU Tower - Pewaukee Universalist Tower.
• The appeal process about termination of calls. 
• Promoting the NNIV. 
•  Dealing with predators in the churches. [GJ - Start by telling the truth instead of shielding criminals.]

AC V Quotes Luther on Justification by Faith. UOJ Stormtroopers Will Brush It Off

AC V has left a new comment on your post "WELS Contradicts Itself on UOJ. WELS DP Buchholz C...":

This is bouncing around the blogosphere. Have you read it? Quotable Luther contra UOJ:

"Thus here, too, the evangelist did not intend that John or any other human being or any creature should be the light, but that there is only one light which illumines all men and that not a single human being could come upon the earth who could be illumined by anybody else. I do not know how to disagree with this interpretation; for in the same manner also St. Paul writes in Romans 5[:18]: 'As through one man’s sin condemnation has come over all men, so through one man’s righteousness justification has come over all men.' Yet not all men are justified through Christ, nevertheless he is the man through whom all justification comes. It is the same here. Even if not all men are illumined, yet this is the light from which alone all illumination comes. The evangelist has freely used this manner of speaking; he did not avoid it even though some would stumble over the fact that he speaks of all men. He thought he would take care of such offense by explaining before and after and by saying that 'the darkness has not comprehended it,' and that the world has never recognized him and his own have never accepted him. Such passages should have been strong enough so that nobody could say he had intended to say that all men are enlightened, but that he alone is the light which enlightens everybody and that, without him, nobody is enlightened." -

Martin Luther (1999). Vol. 52: Luther's works, vol. 52 : Sermons II  (J. J. Pelikan, H. C. Oswald & H. T. Lehmann, Ed.). Luther's Works (71). Philadelphia: Fortress Press.

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GJ - I have read and used many quotations like this one, but nothing has any effect on the UOJ Stormtroopers.  They start and end with double-justification, the absolution of the world. It is easier to remember than  the Four Noble Truths and the Sevenfold Path of Buddhism.

UOJ is simpler than Pentecostalism.

Church and Changer Don Patterson Fits the MBO Template. So Does Matt Doebler

LutherRocks has left a new comment on your post "Guess Who Published This? - Last Century. MBO and ...":

Thanks for posting. So much still applies.

I remember on more than one occasion Doebler talking about all the church plants he was planning in Central Texas...or the goals of Don Patterson. If he wasn't getting through to his leadership he would pound them. Of course when that didn't work there was the 'heart patient' card to play...all the while eating his pepperoni and cheese pizza...

The article also reminded me of Cornerstone's visit. They had the formula all planned out based on the 'giving units' of the congregation. Can you say cold and calculating???

Chad White went with Kudu Don Patterson and others
to the Exponential Pan-Denominational Praise Fest,
Orlando, Florida.
Did anyone excommunicate them.

Bob Buford « Churchmouse Campanologist

Bob Buford « Churchmouse Campanologist: "The gentleman on the left is John Ortberg, 53, the senior pastor of Menlo Park Presbyterian Church (PCUSA) in California."

'via Blog this'

Guess Who Published This? - Last Century. MBO and Drucker

Friday, November 19, 1999

HAPPY 90^TH, PETER DRUCKER

The Wall Street Journal announced today that Peter Drucker turned 90 today. He is now at the age where people say, “He’s still alive?” Perhaps you are not as impressed as I am. Peter Drucker invented management, specifically Management by Objective, MBO. Scholars of the history of management theory may disagree, but I believe Drucker is the genius behind the Mission Statement. Every department of every business must have a Mission Statement. The business or institution must also have a Mission Statement.

People are drinking coffee and wondering, “Why is he going on about this?” The Church Growth people latched onto Peter Drucker material right away. Donald McGavran, trained in educational theory, was keen about statistics. His secular mindset and opposition to the efficacy of the Word fit together perfectly with Drucker’s theories. At some point someone decided that management must also have a vision for the future, not to mention passion. So now we hear politicians babbling about their vision and their passion.

Church bodies too. I was trained in Management by Objective, first in the Lutheran Church in America. Then the same theories were promoted in the Wisconsin Synod. I remember Church Growth guru James Huebner turning white when I mentioned Peter Drucker and Management by Objective. WELS is the last Lutheran synod to discover a fad and then thinks it is a secret from everyone else. When I joined Northwestern Mutual Life, they sold me a 3 ring notebook in which I could write down my goals, objectives, strategies. It was MBO all over again, but more fitting in a business.

I was curious about the close connection between Drucker and Church Growth. (They adopted him. I doubt whether he thought much about Fuller Seminary.) Then a newspaper ran a story about a mega-church in Texas. The article made a point about Management by Objective being the Bible for this Texas church. I visited the narthex of a fine old Episcopal church in Charleston, South Carolina. The vestry voted to ask God for 10% increases in worship in each of the next three years! I thought, “Could this be? A Fuller graduate spoiling another church?” Yes, the priest was getting his Fuller degree and nagging his fellow priests about Church Growth at a future seminar.

In addition, when WELS and ELCA got together with the Missouri Synod at Snowbird, the president of the Drucker Institute spoke. In fact, all the speakers were either a) Church Growth; b) Management; c) ELCA; or d) liberal Reformed.

One WELS circuit pastor said this to me, “When WELS did not think much about itself as an institution, it ran well. Now that it is always talking about management, nothing is going well.” That was some years ago. I recall one of the seminarians bragging that the old fuddy-duddies were being pushed off the seminary faculty and out of the administration. WELS was going to be taught by sharp young pastors and managed by sharp young pastors. Some results: 1) a disastrous decline in membership while the population was growing and conservative churches were supposedly in style; 2) the arrest and conviction and imprisonment of various WELS church workers; 3) demoralization of the clergy; 4) closing two prep schools at a time of growing need and support of education, especially church workers; 5) a precipitous decline in church workers.

I just got an email forwarded about WELS health plan (VEBA) cost increases. Here is one sentence: “On Oct. 20, 1999, the VEBA Commission met to set the rates for Jan. 1,
2000. It had no choice but to raise premiums 25% on average. The rates
will vary by regions, but a family plan with $250 deductible will
increase in a range of $1,308 to $2,352 per year.”

I want to make something clear – the increase cannot be blamed on Church Growth or Peter Drucker. But this increase is another nail in the coffin. When synods go through huge increases in health care, the most flexible fund is the mission offering. When I was ordained in 1973, the health plan for my family cost $285 for the YEAR. It was paid in one lump sum as a minor budget item. My wife and I now pay about $4500 for coverage. When a synod goes through such increases, congregations are crushed by the increase. A large church has a large staff, so the pain is multiplied. A small church barely gets along, so it suffers.

Health care is going to be a major issue with any attempt to have congregations independent of the established synods. My wife was turned down by the CLC group health plan, in spite of promises made beforehand. But we were lucky to be moving to Minnesota, where a plan was established by law for uninsurable people. We were lucky again, if it can be called luck, to have the plan follow us to Arizona. Minnesota is happy to take our money on a monthly basis.

Happy Birthday, Peter Drucker. I would phone you and sing, but I think your lines are tied up by well-wishers from business magazines and church headquarters. There was a time when Lutheran leaders trusted another old man, by the name of Isaiah, and followed what he said. OK, he had some help in writing his book, but it was worth following for a long time. His version of management was a wee bit different:

KJV Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. 10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: 11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it. 12 For ye shall go out with joy, and be led forth with peace: the mountains and the hills shall break forth before you into singing, and all the trees of the field shall clap their hands.

Luther also wrote about management:

"Those, however, who set the time, place and measure, tempt God, and believe not that they are heard or that they have obtained what they asked; therefore, they also receive nothing."

            Martin Luther, Sermons of Martin Luther, 8 vols., ed., John Nicholas Lenker, Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1983, III, p. 172. John 16:23-30.        

"In like manner, St. Paul says that God's ability is thus proved, in that He does exceeding abundantly above and better than we ask or think. Ephesians 3:20. Therefore, we should know we are too finite to be able to name, picture or designate the time, place, way, measure and other circumstances for that which we ask of God. Let us leave that entirely to Him, and immovably and steadfastly believe that He will hear us."

            Martin Luther, Sermons of Martin Luther, 8 vols., ed., John Nicholas Lenker, Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1983, III, p. 179f. Ephesians 3:20.     

"And although we do at times depart from the Word, we should not therefore remain altogether away from it, but return again, for He makes good His Word. Even though man cannot believe it, God will nevertheless help him to believe it, and this He does without man's reason or free will and without man adding anything thereto."

            Martin Luther, Sermons of Martin Luther, 8 vols., ed. John Nicholas Lenker, Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1983, III, p. 76. John 16:16-23      

"If the world were willing to take advice from a simple, plain man--that is, our Lord God (who, after all, has some experience too and knows how to rule)--the best advice would be that in his office and sphere of jurisdiction everybody simply direct his thoughts and plans to carrying out honestly and doing in good faith what has been commanded him and that, whatever he does, he depend not on his own plans and thoughts but commit the care to God. Such a man would certainly find out in the end who does and accomplishes more, he who trusts God or he who would bring success to his cause through his own wisdom and thoughts or his own power and strength."

            Martin Luther, What Luther Says, An Anthology, 3 vols., ed., Ewald Plass, St. Louis: Concordia Publishing House, 1959, III, p. 1151. Luke 5:1-11.  

"Let us, then, prepare ourselves to be patient and learn to bear the furious attacks and the blows of Satan, who is trying to tear the church of Christ to pieces and to establish his own church. We are not any better than the fathers. At the cost of much sweat and labor they, too, scarcely succeeded in their effort to preserve the Word and to snatch a few souls from the jaws of Satan."

            Martin Luther, What Luther Says, An Anthology, 3 vols., ed., Ewald Plass, St. Louis: Concordia Publishing House, 1959, I, p. 280. Genesis 11:10ff.   

MANAGEMENT by OBJECTIVES ( MBO) - ELCA, Missouri, and WELS Management

MANAGEMENT by OBJECTIVES ( MBO) - focus on achievable goals and to attain the best possible results from available resources (Your freeTen3 Business e-Coach):

"Management by Objectives (MBO) was first outlined by Peter Drucker in 1954 in his book 'The Practice of Management'. In the 90s, Peter Drucker himself decreased the significance of this organization management method, when he said: "It's just another tool. It is not the great cure for management inefficiency... Management by Objectives works if you know the objectives, 90% of the time you don't.""

'via Blog this'

The WELS pursuit of the NNIV is a good example of MBO at work. "We will just keep having commissions and meetings until you agree that the NNIV is the only right choice."

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California adds:

Having had warnings fall on deaf ears 35 years ago, it would be dishonest to say that there isn't some satisfaction  to see recognition and acknowledgement at this late date,  that WELS made a disastrous turn in mid century 1960's. A generation ago  she decided to embrace the methodology of the world, and use MBO (PPBS) to facilitate (call it manipulate) replacing KJV with anything except KJV at first, then perpetrating the NIV, which was the choice of the changers.  

The MBO system and the translation issue are more than "related". The issues are intimately entwined.  Whether WELS will  ever be salvaged only God knows, but He is allowing a window of opportunity a generation later for pastors and laymen alike, to review,  understand and recognize what has been done unto them. 

Unless the system of MBO  is addressed, there will only be more of the same, for any  well meaning leaders or laymen will continue to be slaves of the system. Even if NNIV should be set aside for the time being  "one step back" in the process of "two steps forward, one step back" , the system  will still be in place for whatever brainstorm comes along.   This window of exposure may be happening for a remnant in WELS to enable  some to make very painful decisions, or join those whose decisions were (are) being made for them.

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GJ - California went through it all, long ago. The same template is being used today, and the hip pastors of California  (Valleskey, Bivens, Kelm, Stadler) became the senior leaders of WELS. Sure, Stadler was allowed to leave on his own terms, with the property, but the general trend has never abated.

Watch While Corporate WELS Manipulates Its Congregations

This topic is so old that writing about Management By Objective again seems pointless. That also makes it more fun.

Look up Peter Drucker and Management By Objective. Next, attend one of the stewardship meetings spun up and presented by WELS.

Those who have experienced MBO meetings will have a Groundhog Day revelation that everything seems to be happening again and again.

Everyone is being played. MBO pretends to be participatory, but that is the game. Get everyone talking. Listen carefully to each idea, but smile warmly at the correct ones while using the frozen, forced smiles (and patronizing asides) on the wrong ones.

WELS only knows one style of leadership, modeled after Joseph Stalin. One can choose robotic following, silence, or liquidation.

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rlschultz has left a new comment on your post "Watch While Corporate WELS Manipulates Its Congreg...":

Though the MBO idea is old (1954), I appreciate the reminder. I have witnessed this style of sham democracy in both the corporate world and in WELS congregations. A warning to WELS members and pardon the pun, but with this, the WELS leaders will play you like a pipe organ.