Tuesday, November 8, 2011

Anti-NNIV WELS Meeting in New Ulm

After getting a parking ticket at Martin Luther College,
one pastor suddenly realized what the problem was.

The Issues in WELS group, once scattered like Silly Putty hit with a hammer, has gathered together again to fight against the NNIV.

They are meeting in New Ulm at this time. I did not get an invite but only heard about it on the Net. I could identify the source, but he or she would never be heard from again.

I doubt whether they are using the Martin Luther College campus. Still, I had this great photo of their parking lot sign.

The support of the NNIV and ESV during the 400th anniversary of the KJV is ample testimony to the degradation and perversion of the teaching faculties of Lutherdom. There may be a Lutheran holdover here and there, but readers can be sure that anyone suspected of Confessional fidelity has a job in peril.

Ben Wink - On Joe Krohn and Martin Luther College



Ben Wink has left a new comment on your post "Joe Krohn Responds Again to the Nameless Cowards o...":

Going back over the letters and emails that were posted, I must believe that Quiet WELSian (may not be real name) had to have been reading the wrong letters. I see a lay member asking questions, wanting clarifications in an effort to learn and grow in faith. Isn't that a part of making disciples? I see too much emphasis on just spreading the Word, but not enough emphasis on teaching the Word, explaining it, examining it. I see a church refusing to go over major doctrinal areas with a member. And this was just the beginning of the snowball going down the mountain.

I don't care if you are a pastor, a district president, a synod president, if a member has a question regarding essential Christian foundations, you take the time to answer them. The responses from Joe betray that he is a student of Lutheran doctrine, his quotes alone are evidence of that. The responses from the church consist of saying there will be no discussion, repent and shut up or else, with not even token Scripture passages included.

On a separate note regarding something I saw in the FIC for the WELS 2011 Worship Conference. Over 850 attendees. WOW! And 150 students in the youth choirs! YOWZA! I can now see that the new MLC chapel could never have held that many people. Of course, if you go to the MLC website it states:

"What are the general requirements for this chapel?

Seating capacity: 1000 for worshipers, an additional 100 for choir, and overflow seating for 200; flexible seating preferred"

Hmmm...so that chapel can fit 1200 derrieres and over 850 showed up. Gosh that's quite the discrepancy and apparently no one read the PR on the website. Then again I can remember that math was not emphasized when I went to MLC, so why should that change anytime soon?

On a related note, they must have sent out a pamphlet explaining all the various reasons why they had to use an ELCA chapel after reading Ichabod. I overheard a pastor that was headed to the conference reciting almost point for point as to why MLC wasn't suitable: no A/C, not big enough, cafeteria issues, yadda yadda, blah blah, etc. Almost verbatim from what was brought up on Ichabod.

Boy the party line comes out in full force. Sad. Of course now it is quite a bit after the fact so who would really care, right?

http://www.wels.net/worship/about-national-worship-conference

http://www.mlc-wels.edu/home/administration/board/chapelfaq/?searchterm=chapel seating 

***

GJ - Joe can answer this better than I can, but I saw Joe asking questions and being immediately kicked out and trashed, with his wife Lisa. They would not meet with them except to tell off Joe and Lisa while they listened in silence. Ex-SP Gurgle would not even answer an email question.

My experience was this - the WELS pastors could do the repeat-after-me stuff, but they went into panic when I asked probing questions. In fact, I was told that I unraveled people by going to them directly, knocking them off their memorized answers. In spite of what they urge, the leaders do NOT want anyone to go to them and ask questions.

The issue in the Big Four is total control, not doctrinal fidelity. That is why God is letting them crash and burn, poisoning themselves with their own false doctrine.

---

LutherRocks has left a new comment on your post "Ben Wink - On Joe Krohn and Martin Luther College":

Actually it was DP Glaeske that would not answer an email question.

Pr. Gurgel did meet with us graciously on two occasions in our home. Although we could not come to a consensus on terminology, he did not believe our confession was anything damning to our faith and left us feeling (his feeling) that we were probably saying the same things. I believe I did knock him off his memorized answers a couple of times.

Ben Wink is correct in his objective observations.

I asked on more than one occasion to meet with the elders to discuss justification. If anything, they begged us to meet re: fellowship. Why I do not know since we were already excommunicated. We did know what that meant already. But then they turned around and told the voting assembly that they extended invitations to meet about doctrine and that we refused. That led the voters to believe it was about justification when it wasn't.

***

GJ - For precise details, check with Joe Krohn's blog. WELS does not rise above repeating the same old talking points, which contradict each other. The leaders are deathly afraid that the laity will study the Book of Concord, read the KJV, and take appropriate action. They would rather have people pay, pray, and obey. That is why WLC felt comfortable inviting featuring a Roman Catholic archbishop as a speaker (not to mention a few of his priests). They have the same attitude toward infallible leaders and an indefectible church body. Not only that - WELS and the Church of Rome are identical in starting worship conferences with a cash bar for their alcoholics. "Bottoms up!" - as they say without blushing.

---

1580 has left a new comment on your post "Ben Wink - On Joe Krohn and Martin Luther College":

"I don't care if you are a pastor, a district president, a synod president, if a member has a question regarding essential Christian foundations, you take the time to answer them."

I completely agree with you. When I was in high school I sent an e-mail to the Dean of Students at Luther Prep, asking him about UOJ. Knowing this guy, he checks his e-mail constantly -- but failed to ever respond to my e-mail. Sad.

About the MLC Chapel: Sure enough when WELS has one good thing, a solid reverent chapel, they screw it up and put a $40,000 dollar projector in there. During the sermonette the other night it was used to give visuals like we were 5 years old. It was distracting to say the least. On top of that, during the rest of the service it read "Give me an undivided heart." It's ironic that it said that but the reality of the situation was that it gave me a divided heart because I kept looking at the screen instead of the massive cross hanging from the ceiling. I find the screen a stumbling block to my faith and concentration on the Word.

P.S. I hear they're waiting on another "gift" to put in another screen.

Intrepid Lutherans: A Little Touch of Marty In the Night



Intrepid Lutherans: A Little Touch of Marty In the Night:



(My apologies to the immortal Bard. I hope to make this a regular feature on IL, and that you find it interesting and edifying, and that it might generate fruitful discussion.)

From the Large Catechism of Dr. Martin Luther, comments on the Third Commandment, beginning at paragraph 87, from the online edition of the Book of Concord:

87] Accordingly, when asked, What is meant by the commandment: Thou shalt sanctify the holy day? answer: To sanctify the holy day is the same as to keep it holy. But what is meant by keeping it holy? Nothing else than to be occupied in holy words, works, and life. For the day needs no sanctification for itself; for in itself it has been created holy [from the beginning of the creation it was
sanctified by its Creator]. But God desires it to be holy to you. Therefore it becomes holy or unholy on your account, according as you are occupied on the same with things that are holy or unholy. 88]

How, then, does such sanctification take place? Not in this manner, that [with folded hands] we sit behind the stove and do no rough [external] work, or deck ourselves with a wreath and put on our best clothes, but (as has been said) that we occupy ourselves with God's Word, and exercise ourselves therein. 89]

And, indeed we Christians ought always to keep such a holy day, and be occupied with nothing but holy things, i.e., daily be engaged upon God's Word, and carry it in our hearts and upon our lips. But (as has been said) since we do not at all times have leisure, we must devote several hours a week for the sake of the young, or at least a day for the sake of the entire multitude, to being concerned about this alone, and especially urge the Ten Commandments, the Creed, and the Lord's Prayer, and thus direct our whole life and being according to God's Word. 90]

At whatever time, then, this is being observed and practised, there a true holy day is being kept; otherwise it shall not be called a Christians' holy day. For, indeed, non-Christians can also cease from work and be idle, just as the entire swarm of our ecclesiastics, who stand daily in the churches, singing, and ringing bells but keeping no holy day holy, because they neither preach nor
practise God's Word, but teach and live contrary to it. 91]

For the Word of God is the sanctuary above all sanctuaries, yea, the only one which we Christians know and have. For though we had the bones of all the saints or all holy and consecrated garments upon a heap, still that would help us nothing; for all that is a dead thing which can sanctify nobody. But God's Word is the treasure which sanctifies everything, and by which even all the saints
themselves were sanctified. At whatever hour, then, God's Word is taught, preached, heard, read or meditated upon, there the person, day, and work are sanctified thereby, not because of the external work, but because of the Word, which makes saints of us all. 92]

Therefore I constantly say that all our life and work must be ordered according to God's Word, if it is to be God-pleasing or holy. Where this is done, this commandment is in force and being fulfilled. 93]

On the contrary, any observance or work that is practised without God's Word is unholy before God, no matter how brilliantly it may shine, even though it be covered with relics, such as the fictitious spiritual orders, which know nothing of God's Word and seek holiness in their own works. 94]

Note, therefore, that the force and power of this commandment lies not in the resting, but in the sanctifying, so that to this day belongs a special holy exercise. For other works and occupations are not properly called holy exercises, unless the man himself be first holy. But here a work is to be done
by which man is himself made holy, which is done (as we have heard) alone through God's Word. For this, then, fixed places, times, persons, and the entire external order of worship have been created and appointed, so that it may be publicly in operation. 95]

Since, therefore, so much depends upon God's Word that without it no holy day can be sanctified, we must know that God insists upon a strict observance of this commandment, and will punish all who despise His Word and are not willing to hear and learn it, especially at the time appointed for the purpose. 96]

Therefore not only those sin against this commandment who grossly misuse and desecrate the holy day, as those who on account of their greed or frivolity neglect to hear God's Word or lie in taverns and are dead drunk like swine; but also that other crowd, who listen to God's Word as to any other trifle, and only from custom come to preaching, and go away again, and at the end of the year know as little of it as at the beginning. 97]

For hitherto the opinion prevailed that you had properly hallowed Sunday when you had heard a mass or the Gospel read; but no one cared for God's Word, as also no one taught it. Now, while we have God's Word, we nevertheless do not correct the abuse; we suffer ourselves to be preached to and admonished, but we listen without seriousness and care. 98]

Know, therefore, that you must be concerned not only about hearing, but also about learning and retaining it in memory, and do not think that it is optional with you or of no great importance, but that it is God's commandment, who will require of you how you have heard, learned, and honored His Word. 99]

Likewise those fastidious spirits are to be reproved who, when they have heard a sermon or two, find it tedious and dull, thinking that they know all that well enough, and need no more instruction. For just that is the sin which has been hitherto reckoned among mortal sins, and is called torpor or satiety, a malignant, dangerous plague with which the devil bewitches and deceives the hearts of many, that he may surprise us and secretly withdraw God's Word from us. 100]

For let me tell you this, even though you know it perfectly and be already master in all things, still you are daily in the dominion of the devil, who ceases neither day nor night to steal unawares upon you, to kindle in your heart unbelief and wicked thoughts against the foregoing and all the commandments. Therefore you must always have God's Word in your heart, upon your lips, and in your ears. But where the heart is idle, and the Word does not sound, he breaks in and has done the damage before we are aware. 101] On the other hand, such is the efficacy of the Word, whenever it is seriously contemplated, heard, and used, that it is bound never to be without fruit, but always awakens new understanding, pleasure, and devoutness, and produces a pure heart and pure thoughts. For these words are not inoperative or dead, but creative, living words. 102]  And even though no other interest or necessity impel us, yet this ought to urge every one thereunto, because thereby the devil is put to Right and driven away, and, besides, this commandment is fulfilled, and [this exercise in the Word] is more pleasing to God than any work of hypocrisy, however brilliant.


Now, dear Readers, considering what Father Martin says here about the importance of focusing the worship service on Christ, His holy Word, and His Sacraments, and the fact that many erroneously labeled "contemporary" church services have so little Scripture in them - perhaps one reading at most, and that often quite short - and the Sacrament seldom to be seen, what might be said about such modern erstwhile worship gatherings? Comments anyone?


Pastor Spencer


'via Blog this'


Joe Krohn Responds Again to the Nameless Cowards of Fox Valley

Their Daddy Warbucks give them courage.



"Why dost thou disquiet me and bring me up?"

If I didn't know better, I would say Quiet WELSian is a member of Holy Word. You seem to have the same issues that Matt Wordell had.

I didn't misinterpret WELS position on UOJ. I refuted it. Nowhere does it say in the Bible that before we do anything we are forgiven. Which includes being born (as Holy Word and WELS teaches officially) or hearing the Word of God. I used solid scripture to back my position and they used Schaller, Buchholz and WELS 'This We Believe".

I keep getting accused of listening to Jackson and Meyer. I probably don't have half the brain that you do. I'm sorry.

But what of the Intrepid Lutherans? Rydecki and Spencer et al; they must be misinterpreting too, huh? Oh oh... :)

Joe

PS...You should really take your masks off. You make WELS look even more cultish even though I try to give you the benefit of the doubt.

Let the Counting Begin.
How Many Times Can Tiefel Quote Moo?
Mequon a New Moo U.?
I found 13 Moo's.

"I can hit a C over G in my Spanks.
I can hit a light-pole in my car."

Brett Meyer has left a new comment on your post "The Foxes and Vixens of Appleton Pretty Much Talk ...":

(W)ELS gives birth to a two-headed calf. Another essay meant to prop up the dead cat UOJ and the other grotesque protuberance the NNIV.

http://scdwels.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/2011-10-tiefel-paper.pdf



Tiefel, "In NIV11, I do not see a Reformed coup. I see an unsurpassed group of scholars doing what they can to produce an inclusive translation in the hopes that a large majority of readers, including those whom we have not yet met, might use it in learning and discussing doctrine in modern English."

PS:
How many times can one (W)ELSian approvingly quote Douglas Moo in an essay on Justification?



***

GJ - Let's get a count of Moo quotations.

The original nickname of the first Wisconsin Lutheran College was Moo U.

Now Mequon can safely be called Moo U. as the faculty rush around trying to justify their porno-mytho NNIV. They will get what they want, because SP Mark Schroeder has already capitulated as a synodical leaders. Besides, he loves UOJ and the NNIV proves what WELS and all the mainline apostate denominations believer - everyone is born forgiven, absolved, saved.

Dr. Lio Cruz Pretty Much Flattens Appleton Thugs.
Can Sausage Factory Grads Read with Comprehension?

Dr. Lito Cruz earned a PhD in math,
but he also studied theology and Greek.


LPC said...

Quiet WELsian,

Dr. Jackson is correct, you lot do not know how to read. Though I am not a native English speaker and I awkwardly write, I can be forgiven for this.

However, you could have done better in reading the question I have posed.

 There are two questions. "What do you teach is the basis of predestination?

The proper response should begin by saying ... The basis of predestination is _____________.

 I did not ask how predestination happens, rather what is the basis of it, why it happens, not how. 

The second is Does God predestine people according to his decree?"

I am waiting for a simple yes or no, or if you will, repose the question and give reasons why the question is not a proper question to ask.

Did I get it? Nope.

 Also I am in touch with the Real Brett Meyer, and the Brett Meyer who commented in this thread is a fake

So sad, this is a fake Ichabod and the commenters are fake too.

There is no shame in your crowd and there is no limit on the tactics you will employ.

LPC

***
Shepherds need not apply.


GJ - In German, shameless is considered the worst possible verdict on anyone. The word fits the Northern Anything Goes District of WELS, especially Fox Valley, where the plagiarism of false teachers is accepted, praised, and rewarded.

I was teaching computer science class in Glendale when the students began laughing at a Viet Namese man (new arrival) who was actively participating in class in English. I said, "I would like to move all of you to Viet Nam, expect you to read the textbook in Vietnamese, and answer Vietnamese questions in that language. What a laugh that would be."

Lito uses some idioms that show his first language is not English. But does he blast people anonymously saying "pretty much" every few sentences? The Fox Valley vulpines should not call attention to their limitation in language, whether in reading or writing.

Lito is a cogent writer who has struggled with false doctrine from a variety of sources. The people who have been bounced around by various doctrinal claims are often more discerning than those who lay claim to being born Lutheran (a concept so dumb that Nicodemus did not think to ask about it in John 3).

I cannot even imagine trying for a doctorate in math. I have noticed that people with analytical training in math and science are especially good at examining arguments. Our best friend at Yale earned an MD and PhD at Yale Medical School, then worked at Harvard Medical. He could destroy bad argumentation with a few, amused questions. When LI was very young, he heard his godfather discussing a topic. LI said, "You are a pretty bright fellow." Bruce stopped and smiled warmly.



I hear from many laity. They have a better grasp of Christian doctrine than most clergy. They read the Word with humility and ask questions. They do not grab St. Paul by the shoulders and say, "This is what you should have written! I know what you really mean."

I pity Tim Glende and his crowd. Tim grew up in a fake church, St. Paul in German Village. The congregation pretended to be WELS to grab members, but had open communion, communion of Masonic members, boy scouts (gasp!), women voters, and women teaching men. The pastor never even brought up joining WELS. It was too cool to be fake WELS, having the best of both worlds. WELS listed them as a member congregation, too. Lying is fun and productive.

Tim Glende's congregation encouraged Floyd Luther Stolzenburg to pretend he was still a pastor, even though he was kicked out of the LCMS for adultery and sued by the husband of one mistress. One LCMS colleague said, "He betrayed his wife, his children, his congregation, and his conservative friends." A co-pastor said, "Floyd destroyed everything I had."

Floyd could not get a job in the school system or at any church. I wonder why. WELS arranged for him to be a fake pastor, a Church Growth Consultant, with a grant from one of their members, George Skestos. George went to church with his wife at St. Paul, with his future wife to Prince of Peace. When Floyd was done wrecking things, WELS endorsed him for a job at his current church, so he could be a pastor again. WELS enjoys feeding sheep to wolves - it's what they do for fun.

Poor Tim Glende went to Michigan Lutheran Seminary, where John Lawrenz pretended to be a Lutheran. Unknown to many at the time, John was a leader in Church and Change. Lawrenz earned a PhD at a Jewish school. Why doesn't Tim denounce John on his fake blog? I know - because John is a Changer, a beloved member of the wolfpack.

Glende went to Northwestern College, closed by the Changers, and then to The Sausage Factory, where the professors pretend to be Lutheran but only care about:
  • Universal Objective Justification,
  • Church Growth plagiarism.


Poor Tim Glende cannot preach from the Scriptures, so he plagiarizes Groeschel, with the support of his DP, a fake leader.

The fakery is unending. St. Peter pretends that The CORE is another congregation, but it has never been a separate parish. The CORE is simply an evening service downtown, to gather all the Shrinkers and area youth together. Ski and Glende coordinate their Groeschel plagiarism. Ski is listed on the staff of St. Peter, Freedom. Everyone winks and chuckles at their fakery and sheep-stealing from area WELS churches.

When Glende was writing anonymous, nasty comments on this blog, I called him Anonymouse. He began his fake Ichabod blog and the even nastier Anonymouse blog. Poor Tim Glende cannot create anything, so he copies. Like Patterson, he ducked direct communication once I identified where the comments were coming from.

Poor Tim Glende is headed for a bad ending, I am afraid. His home congregation mis-trained him and turned the Ten Commandments upside-down. The process continued throughout his parochial education, where he was trained against the Confessions while brain-washing him about the infallibility of WELS. Getting away with bullying is not success. Being supported in plagiarizing false doctrine is not reason for boasting.

Those who teach universal justification and universal absolution are always anxious to justify themselves - albeit anonymousely.


The Foxes and Vixens of Appleton Pretty Much
Talk Down To Joe Krohn.
Why Is WELS Shrinking So Fast? Pretty Much This Is Why


Quiet WELsian said...
Joe-

Though I'm sorry for your plight, I'm afraid I'm not hugely sympathetic to your complaints about how you were treated on this blog. I remember reading the post and all the guy said to you is that he didn't consider it your fault for getting excommunicated because you obviously weren't taught the doctrine of justification correctly. You really shouldn't have put those letters between you and your church up on your blog. They didn't make you seem sympathetic at all. Rather, what it looked it is this: your pastor and the DP got that you pretty much were misinterpreting the WELS' position on objective justification.

Why didn't Kudu Don Patterson excommunicate Chad White for
attending Exponential in Orlando?
Because Patterson took him and other WELS staffers.
It was a package deal.


They basically begged you to come in and talk to them so that the correct understanding of the position of the Synod could be explain to you. You got up on your high-horse and arrogantly refused to do so. Bear in mind, I find it highly unlikely that they actually believe you to be a heretic in the substance of the faith. Rather, they excommunicated you for the same reason that the authors of the Formula of Concord rejected Flacius' way of talking about original sin: Certain ways of speaking about the faith tend to lead other people astray by giving them false impressions about different doctrines.

They couldn't have you going around their church and saying that the WELS was heretical because of UOJ (which you oddly seem to believe is universalism based on Jackson's false teaching) and therefore confusing the other members into some sort of Pietistic clap-trap about their faith causing God's verdict of justification. I realize in your mind that you're some sort of great persecuted heroic figure who has stood up for the faith. But I, and pretty much everyone else I know who reads your blog sees it differently. Rather, like Flacius you're guy who wouldn't listen to others when they tried to explain to you that you were using terminology that hurts the proper understanding of the faith. I guess what I would say to you is this: maybe you should start listening to some other voices than those of Jackson and Brett Meyer.

***

GJ - "Methinks the lady doth protest too much." Fox Valley, where they excommunicate for asking questions, has to show solidarity with Kudu Don Patterson, who excommunicates (with the blessing of ex-SP Gurgle) for asking questions.

See what The Latin Professor wrote about WELS. Although the clergy were spiteful, vindictive liars in both cases, they did their members a favor by revealing their slavering fangs and raking claws. They are passionate about sharing Jesus Groeschel.