Brett Meyer and Dr. Lito Cruz Answer Simpleman

Simpleman Jones has left a new comment on your post "The Keys Quotation Again":

GJ, does your response mean that I am correct in my assessment?

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Brett Meyer has left a new comment on your post "The Keys Quotation Again":

I know of at least 4 different versions of UOJ that are currently being taught, confessed and defended in the Lutheran Synods. Each of them contradict the others and all contradict Scripture and the Lutheran Confessions. UOJ does not have a BOC style confessional document to which they must hold.

I can tell you that your comparison is only 10% of the differences between UOJ and Christ's Gospel. Every aspect of UOJ is false and contradicts Scripture.

For instance you state, "OJ-SJ'ers say: When Christ died/rose, God declared all people forgiven and righteous." It is more involved than that. In general most UOJists will state that when Christ paid for the sins of the whole world, God removed the sin from the whole world and placed it on Christ. Therefore the world has no more sin, God the Father sees them as guiltless and sinless by His Divine verdict. Buchholz currently teaches that the whole world died to sin the moment Christ died to pay for their sins - this is rejected by most UOJists. UOJists are undecided as to when God declared the unbelieving world forgiven. Some believe it was when Christ declared, "It is finished" on the cross. Others believe it was when He died on the cross and others believe it was when Christ rose victorious from the grave.

You state, "Because God is timeless, this applied to Adam as well as to all people today." No, some UOJists believe Abraham was justified by faith alone but that following Christ's atonement it all changed. UOJists believe Abrahams faith was created by trusting the promise of forgiveness of sins through Christ. Modern UOJists teach that faith cannot be created by a promise. They teach faith can only be created by something that is already true - therefore the preaching that your sins are already forgiven to an unbeliever is the only thing which will create faith. The object of UOJ's faith is the declaration that your sins are already forgiven before you ever believed. The object of the Holy Spirit's faith is Christ and Him crucified.

I could go on and on through the entire UOJ confession.

I recommend reading (W)ELS Siegbert W. Becker's essay on Justification for a foundational view of UOJ. Most UOJists subscribe to what he writes. Buchholz is only publishing his version of UOJ to defend his excommunication and persecution of Christ's Church and is still trying to convince clergy and laity that his version is preferable to other weaker versions.

Becker's essay can be read here:
http://www.wlsessays.net/files/BeckerUniversal.pdf

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LPC has left a new comment on your post "The Keys Quotation Again":

Simpleman,

My advice to you is not to say things in your own words rather, let the UOJer say things as they are and let the Scripture say also things as they are.

The reasons is because you could be misrepresenting UOJ in your head. For you can eventually conclude as some others that this difference is just semantics and there is really no harm to it.

So my advice is that you take the teaching of UOJers at face value and match them with Scripture and see where they fall. This is a more accurate procedure and a safe method to follow.

I have a different rendition than you.

For example, according to C F W Walther, father of US UOJ teaching, you are saved to believe. That is you are saved already, you just need to believe that you are.


JBFA people say what Scripture says. For example, St. Paul says, to the Philippian jailer, believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved.
Acts 16:31

Also, Rom 3:
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

This passage clearly shows that faith in the atonement results in justification.

This is not the same in UOJ, in UOJ faith in justification as a finished fact is what they teach, so faith results in nothing.

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To the UOJer justification has no present nor future aspect. To the JBFA justification is present and has a future aspect, consistent with Scripture.

UOJ is a complete opposite from Scripture.

LPC

The Keys Quotation Again

Simpleman Jones has left a new comment on your post "Left Behind - UOJ from Knapp Turned into Open Univ...":

Went to Lutherquest to check out any debates on UOJ, but only saw one that ended in April (I think). But I saw this quote from Luther (volume 40):

"Even he who does not believe that he is free and his sins forgiven shall also learn, in due time, how assuredly his sins were forgiven, even though he did not believe it."

This quote was not picked up on in the discussion, I don't think, but this surely sounds like Martin Luther taught an objective justification. Am I missing something here? I haven't seen any OJ spoken of in the Lutheran Confessions, so I was wondering about this quote.

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Brett Meyer has left a new comment on your post "Left Behind - UOJ from Knapp Turned into Open Univ...":

Good question. I believe this quote from Martin Luther can be found in Luther's Works vol. 40, 363-369 Treatise Concerning the Keys

Most UOJists will turn to this quote to prove that Luther taught that the whole unbelieving world was declared forgiven by God before and without faith in Christ.

This quote is taken completely out of context and contradicts the Lutheran Confessions and Scripture.

Luther was speaking about the Office of the Keys in this quote. It doesn't support UOJ at all. This is a discussion about the application of the keys in regard to a person who is distraught over their sins and turning to Christ for forgiveness. From the Small Catechism, What is Confession? "Confession embraces two parts: the one is, that we confess our sins; the other, that we receive absolution, or forgiveness, from the confessor, as from God Himself, and in no wise doubt, but firmly believe, that our sins are thereby forgiven before God in heaven." And, "Furthermore: Dost thou believe that my forgiveness is God's forgiveness? Answer. Yes, dear sir. Then let him say: As thou believest, so be it done unto thee. And by the command of our Lord Jesus Christ I forgive thee thy sins, in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost. Amen. Depart in peace."
http://www.bookofconcord.org/smallcatechism.php#confession

The office of the Keys in regard to loosing sin is not to be used for unrepentant sinners as the UOJ promoters would have us believe by their false use of Luther's quote. It is reserved for those who in true repentance are contrite over their sin and turn to Christ for forgiveness. The UOJ promoters are will stop at nothing to pervert Christ's true doctrine to achieve their justification and righteousness before God and men outside of and without faith in Christ.

The Lutheran Confessions teach the following:
"6] Let any one of the adversaries come forth and tell us when remission of sins takes place. O good God, what darkness there is! They doubt whether it is in attrition or in contrition that remission of sins occurs. And if it occurs on account of contrition, what need is there of absolution, what does the power of the keys effect, if sins have been already remitted?…"
http://www.bookofconcord.org/defense_10_repentance.php

Both faithful quotes from the Confessions reject the UOJists blatant lies concerning what Luther taught. Note the fact that by teaching Luther’s statements concerning the Office of the Keys was a declaration that the whole unbelieving world was forgiven by God when Christ paid for the world’s sins – then the Key to Retain sin becomes obsolete. Who then could retain a sin that was already forgiven and absolved by Christ before the person ever believed. In fact, sins that were forgiven even if the person never believes. UOJ contradicts Scripture and the faithful Confessions 100%.

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Brett Meyer has left a new comment on your post "Left Behind - UOJ from Knapp Turned into Open Univ...":

Simpleman, here are a few links to extensive UOJ discussions including one from Lutherquest in 2008.

Correction: 2008 Lutherquest UOJ discussion link is
http://www.lutherquest.org/discus40/messages/69842/68185.html


http://bailingwater.blogspot.com/2009/05/synod-convention.html?showComment=1244325308153#c2385621664358128548

http://extranos.blogspot.com/2010/03/grinding-my-ax.html

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Simpleman Jones has left a new comment on your post "The Keys Quotation Again":

So when Luther said that "his sins were forgiven even though he did not believe it," he was talking about a man who was a believer, and who was given absolution, but was doubting his forgiveness because of guilt??

So actually, the man had faith, but was dealing with unbelief, and was therefore, through that weak faith, forgiven??

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GJ - That is a good summary, Simpleman. Luther's grasp of justification was profound, as shown in his Galatians Commentary. The foundational sin is unbelief. See the graphic below. The UOJ Enthusiasts would have everyone declare a universal absolution without the Gospel or faith, yet insist that the first justification was not effective without the second. That bizarre explanation reminds me of Roman Catholics saying sin are forgiven (through Christ) but not paid for (by man). Enthusiasm always finds a new or old stupidity to grasp and defend, because they divorce the Holy Spirit from the Word.

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Simpleman Jones has left a new comment on your post "The Keys Quotation Again":

Just to be sure I've got this debate down, I need to put it in my own words:

OJ-SJ'ers say: When Christ died/rose, God declared all people forgiven and righteous. Because God is timeless, this applied to Adam as well as to all people today. We could never tell people that they are forgiven if God had not declared all people forgiven and righteous, and therefore the Holy Spirit would never be able to bring a person to faith without us being able to tell the person they are forgiven. For He only works through the gospel message.

J'ers say: When Christ died/rose, He did this for all people so that all people's sins from Adam to people today have been atoned for. We say that Jesus' atonement has done this for all people, but we do not tell an unbeliever that he is personally forgiven until the Holy Spirit has brought him to faith through the teaching of Jesus' atonement for all people.

If I am correct on this, then the practical difference I see in this is that the OJ-SJ'ers tell an unbeliever who has been made to feel guilt over his sin: "You are forgiven of all your sins because of what Christ has done for you. Believe!" 

 
While J'ers would tell that same unbeliever: "Jesus died for the sins of the whole world to reconcile us to God. Believe and you, too, will be forgiven!"

I would like to hear from both sides if I've got this correct. Thanks.

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GJ - UOJ Enthusiasts are on a constant rampage against faith, and they cannot tolerate justification by faith alone. I have preserved many of their most foolish statements. One is posted below as a graphic. It is normal for UOJ and not extreme - for them.

The "comfort" of UOJ.
No wonder WELS and Missouri love working with ELCA.

Left Behind - UOJ from Knapp Turned into Open Universalism in the Mainline Pietistic Denominations

LPC has left a new comment on your post "Grammar Is Good But the Plain Word of God in Any L...": 

Simpleman,

The WELS and LCMS plus the other mini-Synods are very peculiar - they are the only ones who believe that in Romans 4:25, all human beings have been already justified - note in the past tense, a finished event already.

When you swallow one false teaching, you do not only swallow one, you start to swallow the implications that go with that teaching which again are fasle doctrines themselves.

The reason why you feel as if you were missing something is because they have placed something in the passage that is not there. Remember the teaching in the Book of Revelations, cursed is everyone who adds something to the word of God.

If they added something then of course, you are missing something, but which one is faithful to God's word?

One of the false conclusions you get when you swallow UOJ is that you do not even know if you have faith - you become an ignoramus in many ways. Whereas Calvinism makes you look inside you, UOJ does not even want you to look anywhere not even the Word of God. UOJ wants you to teach you all else is irrelevant because you have already been justified by default. So you become indifferent to faith itself, yet it is the most precious thing that God holds in all the universe.

Here is the test.

To know if you have faith just ask the question - did Jesus die on the Cross for you? Yes or No. What sayeth Scripture? If you say yes, you have faith.

LPC 

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GJ - This morning I was thinking about the paragraph that I marked in blue, above. Dr. Cruz has an admirable way of re-stating the problem. That probably comes from his background in math (PhD) and logic, plus his experience in various confessions.

Many have had the same experience, being tossed to and fro as they looked for the truth. They value the Word alone and the classic Lutheran works because a few words of the Gospel are far more valuable than volumes of to-ing and fro-ing. 

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Brett Meyer has left a new comment on your post "Extra Nos: Hunnius proves Steadfast Waltherians ar...":

Simpleman, you'll get a rabid response if you care to post your statements on Lutherquest or Steadfast Lutherans. Lutherquest will allow it in order to give their UOJ pack something to chew on. Steadfast's probably won't because they are a closed UOJ shop. I don't know Greek so I cannot address that portion of your contention. Your statement overall is faithful to Scripture and the Lutheran Confessions and that is always appreciated. In the eternal conflict between UOJ and Christ's Gospel the water is warm - jump right in.

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GJ - Brett is always willing to plow through the tedious UOJ material to extract the basic errors. UOJ stylists still post here from time to time, but they have given up trying to sell their bad arguments and faulty documentation.

That is their white flag of surrender - they ban justification by faith on their blogs but do not even try to market their toxins where the debate is wide open.

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Brett Meyer has left a new comment on your post "Believing in Christ Is Forgiveness - Too Complicat...":

2 Corinthians 13:5, "Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?"

This verse is the very point that Dr. Cruz establishes: that a Christian's comfort comes from the faith of the Holy Spirit of which Christ is the author and finisher of, Hebrews 12:2, "Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and set down at the right hand of the throne of God."

We should all send (W)ELS District President Jon Buchholz a thank you card. It's incredible to think of all the well spent time and effort that has gone into refuting the false gospel of UOJ in each of it's tenets as it attacks the work of Christ, the righteousness of Faith, the work of the Holy Spirit through the Means of Grace, the doctrine of the Adoption of Sons, the singular reality of God the Father (more needs to be said of UOJ's New Age teaching of multiple realities) etc etc. Yet in a few minutes Buchholz boiled the whole contention between Universal Objective Justification and Christ's one Justification Solely by Faith in Him Alone down to the simplest and most easily understood terms: IF YOU BELIEVE THAT SINS ARE FORGIVEN SOLELY BY FAITH IN CHRIST ALONE: YOU ARE DAMNED.

Not to say that the (W)ELS hasn't condemned people for this before. The Kokomo families were excommunicated for rejecting the version of UOJ which (W)ELS theologian Siegbert W. Becker embraced. Joe and Lisa Krohn were excommunicated from Holy Word in Austin, Texas.

Jon Buchholz' excommunication of faithful Pastor Paul Rydecki from the (W)ELS in September of 2012 was just another example of the similarities between the Lutheran Synods and the Roman Catholic Church's official teaching in the Council of Trent. The Antichrist, Jon Buchholz and the Lutheran Synods declare anathema (condemn to Hell) anyone who believes they are Justified solely by faith in Christ alone.

Simple.
Profound.

Question is, when will Buchholz and Schroeder distribute the next (W)ELS Papal Bull regarding their version of the wholly perverse false gospel of Objective Justification which wars against Christ and His Church and when will anyone in the Lutheran Synods stand up and publicly oppose the false gospel of UOJ? 

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GJ - Brett, I am sure they are going to rely on bamboozling the laity and clergy with their New NIV:

• Great scholars. 
• United effort by Biblical translators.
• Voted up by our own brilliant faculty.
• Must adopt immediately.

Thus a laughable paraphrase promoted by atheists, scoundrels, lesbians, and English-language-destroyers will be their basis for UOJ forever.

Many clergy have no grasp of Hebrew and Greek, in spite of what they claim at Mequon. I saw no Greek ability at all in the Columbus WELS coven. DP Nitz' son and Paul Kuske could not translate 1 John from Greek to English with advance notice. No one wanted to work on Hebrew except Schumann and me. Schumann started and dropped out of graduate school - OT.

When WELS brags about their great grasp of Hebrew and Greek, try not to smile. Tears squirt out of my eyes from the pain of holding back.