Tim Glende Copies Other Enthusiasts To Prove UOJ, Cannot Defend His Own Position

Anonymous said...

Okay, well, I understand your viewpoint. I disagree, and I will tell you why, but I hope you publish this on your blog with refutation. I am not a theologian, but an attorney, so I must address your arguments in my way. I read those papers you suggested awhile ago, but I think they are very poorly written and as such, unhelpful. Mixed metaphors, split infinitives, and a perpetual comma happy-hour confuse even the confused. I don't fault you for suggesting them, but... I hope you be amenable to the discussion without sig becker quotes. You are using several Bible verses in isolation to prove a preconceived idea. Now, any student knows that this approach (to any topic) must be held in a critical light. To understand a concept you must read things in context. You can prove anything in the world provided you offer a narrow enough scope. Upon rereading Romans, particularly chapters 4 moving into 5 you do not find one shred of suggestion that any substantive change happens to a man apart from faith. Faith is not, as you insist, the thing that appeases God. God demands righteousness. Christ, and faith in him is the way that God makes it possible for a man to become righteous. I'm not going to judge your heart, but the words you use make it seem like you're making a god out of faith. The cherry, my friend, is righteousness, not faith. Faith is God's chosen vehicle for delivering righteousness. What I hear you saying is that man's overarching lack is faith. Please show me Scriptural evidence (not using verses in isolation) which describes man's problem as faithlessness. No rather, all throughout the Old and New Testament we find the Apostles preaching that humanity's fundamental problem is a lack of righteousness. Our sin is what separates us from the Father. God could've chosen 6000 different ways for man to regain this right standing with him, but he chose to send his Son, and made faith the vehicle for receiving the righteousness that Christ achieved. Objective Justification makes God an unjust lying demon and I would not worship him, if that's who I thought he was. How evil and pathetic would some so-called god be who tells us he damns us for failing to be perfect throughout the entire Old Testament, but then as soon as Jesus shows up, moves the goalpost? Now, post-Jesus, righteousness is not the object, but faith is. Everyone is now righteous, according to you, and now we need to get this Pick 'n Save card (faith) so that we can access heaven--even though, when Abraham lived, righteousness was the key to heaven. If that is who the god of the Bible is then I would spit in his face like the Roman soldiers. Don't you think it's a bit presumptuous to suggest that God would damn someone for something OTHER than breaking his holy law? I really hope that isn't what you're saying, but it sort of sounds like it. God damns man for his failure to keep his Law, not for his lack of faith. (now, it turns out that without faith it is impossible to keep the law. But faith is not the object. Christ's obedience and righteousness is credited to those in whom faith has been created. It's only through the Word and Sacrament that a man receives Christ as his substitute. You have been deceived. ---Tom Wyeth

June 20, 2011 12:54 PM

Real Ichabod said...

Tom, we're not going to debate you further on this topic. We have stated clear Scripture and shared the links to a number of well written papers. We're sorry if you don't agree and misunderstand where we're coming from.

Gratuitious kitteh photo

Pastor Paul Youndahl, Son of Reuben, Just Died. 13,000 Members at Mt. Olivet

Youngdahl, Pastor Of Largest ELCA Church In Nation, Dies

June 20, 2011 7:14 PM

(credit: Mount Olivet Lutheran Church)

Mount Olivet Lutheran Church, Paul M. Youngdahl

 

MINNEAPOLIS (WCCO) – Paul M. Youngdahl, the senior pastor of Mount Olivet Lutheran Church in Minneapolis, passed away on Monday, according to the church.

A message was posted on the church’s website saying the Youngdahl has ”entered the joy of eternal life.”

“He will be remembered as one of Mount Olivet’s greatest treasures for his leadership, his commitment and service to God’s family, and for his never-ending love of the Lord.  We will miss him dearly and extend our condolences to you, his beloved church family,” the statement said on the church’s homepage.

Youngdahl has been senior pastor at Mount Olivet since 1974 where his father, Reverend Reuben Youngdahl, was previously a senior pastor from 1938 to 1968.

The church has 13,000-plus members which makes it one of the largest ELCA (Evangelical Lutheran Churches of America) churches in the nation.

Youngdahl is survived by his wife Nancy and three children Aaron, Peter and Kristi.

***

GJ - His father was a legend in the Augustana Synod. The story I heard was that Reuben was given this relatively small church, with 250 members, to get rid of him. When he died relatively young, Mt. Olivet had 10,000 members.

Most whale congregations fade away in time. Or, as LI observed, plum calls turn into prunes.

Time Magazine recognized Reuben here:

"The most outstanding young man in Minneapolis for 1944" turned out to be blond, strapping (6 ft. 2 in.; 205 Ibs.) Rev. Reuben Youngdahl, 33. His outstanding job: in only seven years he converted Mount Olivet Lutheran Church from a debt-ridden institution of 200 members into a booming 2,500-member parish.

Last week Mount Olivet, now the second biggest church in the Augustana Lutheran Synod, celebrated its 25th anniversary. The congregation had already outgrown its new $50,000 church. Pastor Youngdahl was holding three identical services every Sunday, each overflowing the 465 seats and jamming the church to the doors. To meet the rush, he planned to split $400,000 between a new postwar church building and a Sunday school, youth center and gymnasium.

Reuben Youngdahl, son of a Swedish grocer, took unorthodox risks to perform this transformation. He first plunged the church deeper into debt in order to build in a better part of town. Then he set out after new members. He told his parishioners that he believes that church member ship is a "seven-day-a-week proposition"; if they wanted to belong, they would have to keep busy. They do—in thirteen women's and social clubs, four youth groups, two missionary societies, a day nursery.

Pastor Youngdahl is no sawdust-trail evangelist. Quiet, forceful, hardworking, he preaches ten-to-twelve-minute sermons, studded with human-interest stories which relate Christian truths to modern living. He believes no minister need be a ranter: "I've got something to sell. The greatest thing in the world. Christianity works."

Read more: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,792131,00.html#ixzz1Ps5KAnjz

---

Reuben Youngdahl ’31 Inducted 1978
Basketball and Football
Reuben Youngdahl

Reuben Youngdahl '31 earned six letters in basketball and football at Gustavus and was placed unanimously on every All-State team in basketball as a junior and senior, He was the league's high scorer as a senior with 117 points in ten games. Reub led the All-State team to victory in 1931 when they played the Carleton Victory Five in a post season game in the Minneapolis auditorium.

He received his B.D. from Augustana Theological Seminary in 1934 and at his first call in Marshalltown, Ia, he helped support himself by playing professional basketball. He became pastor of Mt. Olivet Lutheran Church in Minneapolis in 1938 and during his tenure the congregation grew from 300 to more than 10,000 members. He traveled internationally, spoke to a wide audience through his radio and television programs and wrote 13 books.

Reuben Youngdahl died on March 2, 1968.

---

Luther Youngdahl was the governor of Minnesota:

Luther W. YoungdahlAKA Luther Wallace Youngdahl
Born: 29-May-1896
Birthplace: Minneapolis, MN
Died: 21-Jun-1978
Location of death: Washington, DC
Cause of death: Cancer - unspecified
Remains: Buried, Arlington National Cemetery, Arlington, VA
Gender: Male
Religion: Lutheran
Race or Ethnicity: White
Sexual orientation: Straight
Occupation: Politician, Judge
Party Affiliation: Republican
Nationality: United States
Executive summary: Governor of Minnesota, 1947-51
Military service: US Army (field artillery, WWI, 2nd Lt.)
Brother: Reuben Youngdahl (pastor)
Brother: Oscar Youngdahl (US Congressman)
Brother: Carl Youngdahl (music professor)
Brother: Benjamin Youngdahl (educator)
Brother: Peter Youngdahl (attorney)
Sister: Ruth Youngdahl Nelson
Wife: Irene Annet Engdahl (m. 1923, d. 26-Nov-1992, one daughter, two sons)
Daughter: Margaret Peterson
Son: William L. Youngdahl
Son: P. David Youngdahl

Special Pleading among the UOJ Stormtroopers - New Graphic

Nothing is too low or dirty for the UOJ Stormtroopers.
Do not ask them questions or they will excommunicate.
If you are a fellow pastor, they will block the email.

Ichabod readers can compare this blog to others. Come back in a few minutes.

OK. Welcome back. Notice the difference. I post all their favorite UOJ essays and even kelm their posts with the links.

All they do is post their favorite talking points and only the UOJ essays that recycle those talking points.

They could kelm my doctrinal graphics. I have given advance permission to use them. They could deal with the points brought up by many people about the short and dreadful history of UOJ, starting with Knapp at Halle University and ending with universalism, atheism, and Church Growth (in descending order).

They deal with objections this way:

1. The efficacy of the Word in the Means of Grace. Never heard of it.
   
2. The Holy Spirit works only with the Word and never apart from the Word. Never heard of it, so can't discuss it.
   
3. Robert Preus - deny and avoid that topic, Justification and Rome.
   
4. Gausewitz - forgotten. Nothing to see or address.
   
5. The 1901 German LCMS catechism with no UOJ and the current CPH catechism (KJV) with no UOJ. Silence.
   
6. Luther, Chemnitz, Melanchthon, Gerhard, Calov, Quensted - they do not read those authors.
   
7. The Book of Concord - denial of the entire content of the Confessions.
   

I have noticed an excess of nastiness on the part of UOJ Enthusiasts, which they pursue anonymously if at all possible. They also lie a lot, as if "All men are liars" is a command rather than a description.

They howl with rage if anyone challenges for obvious sin, even when this is done with hat in hand, and beggin' the pardon, sir. But they have no compunction about excommunicating - not exactly an excess of grace or forgiveness.

Heard It on the Grapevine

The Michigan District, WELS, is asking to delay the vote on the NNIV.

The South Central District voted against it.

Tim Glende claims that everyone in the entire world is already forgiven. That is why he is so eager to excommunicate.

Ditto Kudu Don Patterson.

Ditto Pope John the Malefactor.

The only damning sin--for Ski and Glende--is questioning Ski and Glende.
For that sin - excommunication.
Read Rick Techlin's blog.


Brett Meyer has left a new comment on your post "Clown Ministry Honcho Defends UOJ - Ineptly Of Cou...":

If all are declared innocent as UOJ teaches, for what reason are some damned to hell?
People are damned to hell because of unbelief.

So the (W)ELS would have everyone believe that Christ didn't die for the sin of unbelief. UOJ teaches that Christ died and paid for every sin but the sin of unbelief which is the one remaining sin that damns a person to Hell. This individual who answers this appropriate question is teaching that Christ didn't die and pay for the sin of unbelief.

First, every human being was born dead in sins, separated from God and under the Law. Everyone from the time of their conception was guilty of the sin of unbelief. No one outside of God's Word and Baptism ever believed on Christ alone for the forgiveness of their sins. If Christ did not die and pay the sins of unbelief then the entire human race is damned to Hell for the sin that Christ's sacrifice didn't pay for.

UOJ makes Christ inept and makes God a liar because Scripture states in Isaiah 53:6, "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on Him the iniquity of us all." God says that every sin was laid on Christ and yet the (W)ELS contends that the sin of unbelief was not laid on Christ and therefore it wasn't paid for.

Second, what is being taught by this individual promoting UOJ is false doctrine. Christ states that if a man remains not in the sin of unbelief, but comes to faith in Christ, by the gracious work of the Holy Spirit, that man will receive the forgiveness of sins and eternal life. Romans 11:23, "And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again." The UOJ defender above goes on to reference 2 Corinthians 5:21, "God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men’s sins against them.” as proof that UOJ is true. Yet this very verse contradicts UOJ's teaching concerning the universal sin of unbelief. If God, apart from the Means of Grace working faith alone in Christ, doesn't count men's sins against them, then how can he count the sin of unbelief against them? If the teachings of UOJ are true it is indeed a Universalist religious doctrine. The truth is that not one teaching of UOJ is true it can be easily shown by using Scripture and the Lutheran Confessions.

So unbelief is not the unforgivable sin. The true Gospel is that Christ died and paid for all sins, including the sin of unbelief which every human being has been guilty of. Outside of faith in Christ we are dead in sins, remain unforgiven and condemned of God. By the gracious calling of the Holy Spirit through the Means of Grace, God's Word and Baptism, Christ works repentance over sin and faith in Him for the forgiveness of sins, justification and salvation. Not as a process as the false gospel of UOJ teaches but instantaneously when we believe alone in Christ's atonement.

UOJ is a heinous false gospel and attacks the central article of Christian faith. Test the spirits with God's Word to see if they are of God. This UOJ defender and promoter is not of God.

In Christ,
Brett Meyer

Evangelical Lutheran Synod Book on Education

Telling the Next Generation:

The Evangelical Lutheran Synod’s Vision for Christian Education, 1918–2011 and Beyond

Edited by Ryan C. MacPherson, Paul G. Madson, and Peter M. Anthony, with assistance from Bethany Lutheran College student interns
Mankato, MN: Lutheran Synod Book Company, 2011


Overview:
This anthology reproduces classic statements concerning Christian education by pastors and laypersons of the Evangelical Lutheran Synod. Suitable for both personal reading and pastoral reference, this historical sourcebook of Christ-centered education includes forty-five documents spanning nearly a century. Dozens of photographs and other illustrations supplement the text. Carefully researched introductions recapture the contexts in which church leaders have addressed critical issues concerning Christian education, including:

• Education in the Christian Home
• Christian Elementary Schools and High Schools
• Christian Colleges and Seminaries
• A Christian Liberal Arts Education
• Government Aid for Christian Education
• Academic Freedom and Christian Integrity

“We will tell the next generation the praiseworthy deeds of the LORD.” Psalm 78:4

Ordering Information

• Amazon.com
• Order directly by sending a check for $23.95 per copy payable to ELS Historical Society, 6 Browns Court, Mankato, MN 56001. Shipping, handling, and (when applicable) sales tax will be paid by the Evangelical Lutheran Synod Historical Society.

***

GJ - I heard it on the grapevine.

Clown Ministry Honcho Defends UOJ - Ineptly Of Course. Webber, Spencer, Cascione, Intrepids - You Are One with Him in Doctrine

Glende and Ski plagiarize Groeschel, but Glende condemns this blog for quoting Lutheran authors.

Monday, June 20, 2011

Response to Tom Wyeth and Others

Tom Wyeth recently asked a couple questions. When someone writes a comment to a blog, it is not a personal e-mail, but a public comment. He seemed rather impatient for our responses. Sorry, Tom, for the delay, but we don’t have time to sit in front of the computer all day answering blog questions. We hope you understand.

Here are Tom’s questions:

If all are declared innocent as UOJ teaches, for what reason are some damned to hell?
People are damned to hell because of unbelief.

Mark 16:16 “Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.”

John 3:18 “Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of god’s one and only Son.”

If righteousness is not the key to entering heaven, since all are declared righteousness, what IS the key to entering heaven? IS it the faith, or is it the righteousness that is draped over the faithful?
You have been reading too much of Dr. Gregory L. Jackson’s and Brett Meyer’s drivel. The passages that teach universal objective justification are plain to see:

Romans 5:18,19 “Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.”

2 Corinthians 5:21 “God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men’s sins against them.”

There are many more.

The Bible teaches UOJ. But, unlike what Dr. Jackson would have you think, UOJ is never taught in a vacuum. The Holy Spirit always presents it as being received through faith, which is personal subjective justification. For example, in Romans 5, the chapter begins by speaking of being “justified through faith.” Faith in what? Faith in the objective fact that Christ died for the ungodly and that “the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.”

A simple example of UOJ and PSJ is found in John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

“For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son” – UOJ.

“that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.” – PSJ.

What does a Christian look at when he faces trouble or even death? We look to Christ and his life, death and resurrection for the certainty of our justification before God. We do not look to our personal trust, because it is weak and frail. Personal trust, or faith, is there, but it does not look to itself. It looks to Christ.

So to answer your question, in faith, created in our hearts by the Spirit and not by our own thinking and choosing, we trust that Jesus has draped over us his righteousness.

Edward Koehler explained the relationship between UOJ and PSJ this way in his volume, A Summary of Christian Doctrine, page 149- “Universal justification does not benefit anyone unless it is followed by personal justification, and that personal justification is possible only because of the preceding universal justification. In other words, the fact that God has forgiven all sins to all men does not help anyone unless he accepts it by faith; on the other hand, he cannot appropriate forgiveness to himself if the sins are not yet forgiven. Illustration: Bread will not nourish us, unless we eat it; but we cannot eat it unless it is there.”

Dr. Jackson and Brett Meyer will most likely plaster Ichabod the Glory Has Departed with many quotes from the Confessions regarding justification by faith. We certainly agree with those quotes from the Confessions. The people Dr. Jackson has attacked do not teach the error of Universalism. This is a straw man argument he has set up in order to make himself look good and gain a following. Lutherans with a Synodical Conference background do not deny justification by faith alone.

We received a number of other comments, but they were anonymous and were similar to what you wrote, Tom. We would suggest that you read again the essays

http://www.wlsessays.net/files/ReimHistory.pdf

http://www.wlsessays.net/files/BeckerJustification.PDF

http://www.wlsessays.net/files/KuskeOutreach.pdf

http://www.wlsessays.net/files/RhyneSubjective.pdf

http://www.wlsessays.net/files/ValleskeyJustification.pdf

http://www.wlsessays.net/files/SchallerRedemption.pdf

Best Role in Life

The best and most fulfilling role in life, for a guy, is being a father. I find it puzzling that so few want to take on the role, whether they have children in marriage or outside of marriage. We have not come to grips as a nation with people being mothers and fathers, regardless of how they respond to that blessing. If they run away from the baby or end the child's life, they are still mother and father.

I volunteered in a pro-life center for five years. I recall one supposed father coming in to witness the pregnancy test. He was the husband, hoping for a child. The rest of the time, the girls came in alone.

Nobody expects much from a father today, so anything done is good. Men are seldom spiritual leaders in their homes, so they are miracles if they are.

Men are often too busy for their children. "Quality time" is a bogus concept peddled by guilty parents. The volume of time is the quality. A fishing trip between stays at the reform military academy will not make up for years of neglect.

In grade school and in church, I remember male teachers walking into a noisy room and settling it down with a scowl and a word. Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. It also rocks absolutely.

Everyone expects moms to be loving and sacrificial, eager to take their children to church or teach them catechism. If the dad does a little of the same, he is a big hero. Men have to chance to be heroes to their sons and daughters, role models, fonts of wisdom.

I believe there is quite a lot of determinism in life. We are born with certain traits, like them or not. Musicians have children with wonderful fine muscle control or great voices, often both. They are often math whizzes as a bonus. No matter how much I might want to be a musician, I lack the talent. Looking at my parents, who were not instrumentalists or singers, that is no surprise.

A number of my relatives are gifted in math, love calculus and find it easy. That gene never stopped long enough to visit me. I inherited certain traits from my parents, but also certain attitudes. Becoming adults in the Great Depression, they assumed a graduate education for each one of us. Four kids earned twelve degrees and three designations (two CPAs, one CLU).

I did go off the charts in verbal skills (inborn - no work involved) but also in the enjoyment of writing. Few like to write, and even fewer love to write. I found it relatively easy, though still hard work, and also rewarding in many ways. My parents were avid readers, voracious readers, and my mother wrote in newspapers, producing books on phonetic spelling too.

What I did long ago as a father has had a great impact, and that was make an investment of time, which I enjoyed more than anything else in this poor life of labor. I spent a lot of time with our son, and I read to him long past the age where it was needed. We read a lot of great literature together, including Tolkien. Two granddaughters have middle names of Tinuviel and Eowyn. We have running jokes based on things we read together and did together: military equipment, dinosaurs and rocks, museums and movies.

When I hear about enormous projects involving mainframes, I remember helping to wire that first Atari game computer. I can brag that I got him into computers, and he can say the same thing about me, when he urged me to get trained. So I did.

Recently, he wrote, "You taught me never to turn down free training." We used to shake our heads about people who were satisfied with doing exactly what was required and never learning anything new. He is many levels above them now.

We had the best time consuming some Dairy Queen on Saturday. His family told me about one of their many rescue cats finding a bunny and eating most of it, with some parts left in the kitchen. They were not sure which cat ate the rabbit until one became heaving in the kitchen. I said, "That brings new meaning to the song - Here comes Peter Cottontail - brek."

We had a big laugh.