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ICHABOD, THE GLORY HAS DEPARTED - explores the Age of Apostasy, predicted in 2 Thessalonians 2:3, to attack Objective Faithless Justification, Church Growth Clowns, and their ringmasters. The antidote to these poisons is trusting the efficacious Word in the Means of Grace. John 16:8. Isaiah 55:8ff. Romans 10. Most readers are WELS, LCMS, ELS, or ELCA. This blog also covers the Roman Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodoxy, and the Left-wing, National Council of Churches denominations.
Tuesday, December 15, 2009
Mark and Avoid Jeske Admires
Mark and Avoid Driscoll of Mars Hill
Driscoll, the Dark Lord of Seattle
Loved by Jeske, Ski, Bishop Katie, and Glende
Pastor Jeske's Blog
6/8/2009 - Cussing
Perhaps you’ve heard of Pastor Mark Driscoll of Mars Hill church in Seattle. A prolific author and speaker, he has a considerable national reputation. Some of his detractors, including equally famous Southern California pastor John McArthur, recently ignited some hoo-ha when they criticized his occasionally salty pulpit language as inappropriate “cussing.” McArthur even called for Driscoll to step down as Mars Hill pastor.
Apparently Driscoll has been heard to say “Damn” not in its Biblical sense but in the more common usage merely as an emphasis word. Some of what he is being criticized for is not cursing per se (i.e. calling on God to condemn something to hell) but vulgarity (“hell”, “I’m screwed”, “that sucks”). Even the notoriously hip Pastor Ed Young, Jr., piled on. I can resonate with Driscoll’s dilemma. I have been strongly criticized several times for saying “Dang” in a message.
On the one hand, you have Bible passages like Ephesians 4:29 that urge Christians not to let “any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths,” or Ephesians 5:4, “Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk, or coarse joking.” On the other hand, Driscoll’s defenders point out that he is not actually cursing, but merely using language the way his target audience uses it. The huge growth of Mars Hill is seen as proof that he is connecting with young people in metro Seattle.
Well, what’s a pastor to do? Do you have any advice for me?
As a comment to Jeske's post below:
6/9/2009 - Posted by TF
I think light cussing maybe is alright to use in context to reach younger church goers, but it is a slippery slope. You may offend more than you attract. I am 43, and it would hard for me to hear a pastor cuss. I am from a traditional WELS background. Keep up the goodwork Pastor Mark. I wish I could find someone more like you in a local church.
I think light cussing maybe is alright to use in context to reach younger church goers, but it is a slippery slope. You may offend more than you attract. I am 43, and it would hard for me to hear a pastor cuss. I am from a traditional WELS background. Keep up the goodwork Pastor Mark. I wish I could find someone more like you in a local church.
What would we do without traditional WELSians
Why were Glende, Ski, and Katie in Seattle for seafood?
Driscoll? Did they tell their congregations the truth?
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Brett Meyer has left a new comment on your post "Mark and Avoid Jeske Admires Mark and Avoid Drisco...":
WELS/LCMS Pastor Mark Jeske states, "On the one hand, you have Bible passages...On the other hand, ...The huge growth of Mars Hill is seen as proof that he is connecting with young people...Well, what’s a pastor to do? Do you have any advice for me?"
What's wrong with this world that WELS/LCMS Pastors such as Mark Jeske are made to chose between God's Word and huge growth.
WWSD? Yeah, he already did.
Jeske should be taken to the edge of town and pelted with .... Contemporary dog poo. (little nod to DK)
Everyone Is Buzzing - Meet the LCMS-WELS-ELS Shrinkers at Radicalis
Did the MLC boys learn from this photo?
These idiot poses never go away. Ask Rick Warren, DMin (Fuller) By the way, Warren is a Baptist, though he hides it, the way Andy Stanley does. Both leaders are bit deals for the Shrinkers in WELS and the LCMS.
Radicalis - 2009
Rick Warren is having a confab of confabs at his Saddleback Church. Mrs. Ichabod stopped at Saddleback and went in to listen to him speak to addicts.
Church and Changers will be there, fur shure. Look at the speaker list:
Speakers
Tom Holladay
Teaching Pastor,
Saddleback Church
Absolute Surrender, Sacrificial Lifestyle, Authentic Christianity...
A Radical Experience
Rick Warren and his team invite you and your team to attend Radicalis, February 9-12, 2010
Radicalis is really ten conferences in one that makes it possible to bring your entire church team for individual learning experiences.Radicalis is a unique hands-on, comprehensive experience that will enhance each member of your team’s role in your church and build and inspire them to serve God in your community and the world. Rick Warren, the Saddleback Team and leading national pastors will challenge, develop, and expand your vision to be a moving force for God in today’s world.
They’ll help you understand the paradigm, learn the process and build relationships for expanding your ministry. They’ll enlarge your understanding of what “church” and “ministry” mean to enable you to affect positive, purposeful change for God. Imagine what would happen in your community, in your church and in our world if your church team collectively shared an experience guided by the Spirit of God in which we saw His calling and His will for your ministry.
Check out the TEN Individual Learning Experiences that will be at Saddleback's Radicalis February 2010:
- Purpose Driven Church & The
P E A C E Plan - Preaching for Life Change
- Purpose Driven Youth Ministries
- Purpose Driven Children’s Ministries
- Purpose Driven Small Groups
- Worship
- Leading Through Change
- Developing Emotionally Healthy Leadership
- HIV/AIDS/Orphan Care
- Celebrate Recovery
Special Featured Conference
- Life as a Pastor's Wife
Ichabod Is Being Followed
Your blog is being followed as a header on this site. Four clicks down posted on the left side highlighted as blue button.
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GJ - I am surprised, since so many blogs reflect upon, copy, or oppose what is posted here. But they do not link or list. I find someone echoing my post and not giving credit a supreme compliment, so I do not mind at all. Several who were rather touchy about me at first are now good friends - but I forget their names.
I am going to link them in return, because they gather up a lot of news from Lutherdom.
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Anonymous has left a new comment on your post "Ichabod Is Being Followed":
Wow. What a mishmash of stuff on that website. Leaves a pretty bad taste in one's mouth.
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GJ - Some call those sites "conglomerators." They use software to pick up the latest posts and save the rest of us a lot of time.
I was doing a search on "Paul Kelm" and found the website listed all his information as coming from Ichabod! Readers will notice the same effect when they look for various photos on Google Images. The early bird gets the worm, as Darwin would say.
ELCA Dissenters Waking Up To Reality
Come home to Rome - Purgatory awaits.
This is creepy. A regular email friend sent me this link, which involves an LCA church I used to pass when I walked to high school in Moline:
The website also mentions Trinity, which is the sister church of Salem, where I was confirmed. I heard a missionary at Salem who was part of J. W. Montgomery's book on Lutheran decline. Mrs. Ichabod and I were discussing Trinity today, because a NYC lawyer (once a member there) just sent a Season's Greetings card.
Not surprising to me is the way in which the ELCA is behaving toward dissenters.
I also wonder where all these dissenters were in 1987, when ELCA was formed with the worst possible combination of apostate theologians and leaders, except they got worse with the help of the quota system.
Why Confessional Lutherans Are Giving Up on the Enthusiastic Synodical Conference
Not my PhotoShop - from Mollie Hemmingway, LCMS
Anonymous has left a new comment on your post "Awww - Ain't That Sweet!":
Attention: to person from St. Marcus
Wow, I'm impressed, could the name withheld be Herr DrEck?
When the Pharisee card gets played, am I supposed to go through someone's idea of an emotional hoop? Sorry whoever your name is, you sold out and got called on it.
Just like the now expired 'Race card', that argument doesn't work anymore.
Just for integrity sake with your new religion why did you not have the decency to remove yourself? Us faithful would like to keep our church pure and keep the heterodox ecumenical schlock outside.
You should have moved on and started your own religion instead of piggy backing on Lutherans and pushing this stuff on us by stealth. The laity never asked for this, it came from the top down.
Lots of folks running around calling themselves Lutheran, the denominational name on the door doesn't mean much anymore and that goes for pastors, too.
Spare me the martyr stuff, I'm not buying, I read the Purpose Driven playbook, too.
I'm not giving an inch on doctrine, that doctrine stuff keeps my salvation helmet chin strap on real tight so when I encounter church growth baloney I can deal with it.
.
cw from Chicago
LCMS in exile
Attention: to person from St. Marcus
Wow, I'm impressed, could the name withheld be Herr DrEck?
When the Pharisee card gets played, am I supposed to go through someone's idea of an emotional hoop? Sorry whoever your name is, you sold out and got called on it.
Just like the now expired 'Race card', that argument doesn't work anymore.
Just for integrity sake with your new religion why did you not have the decency to remove yourself? Us faithful would like to keep our church pure and keep the heterodox ecumenical schlock outside.
You should have moved on and started your own religion instead of piggy backing on Lutherans and pushing this stuff on us by stealth. The laity never asked for this, it came from the top down.
Lots of folks running around calling themselves Lutheran, the denominational name on the door doesn't mean much anymore and that goes for pastors, too.
Spare me the martyr stuff, I'm not buying, I read the Purpose Driven playbook, too.
I'm not giving an inch on doctrine, that doctrine stuff keeps my salvation helmet chin strap on real tight so when I encounter church growth baloney I can deal with it.
.
cw from Chicago
LCMS in exile
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GJ - I do not know who this person is, but the comments should resonate with anyone who has encountered the Shrinkers.
Uncle Sam Wants You
Awww - Ain't That Sweet!
Greg:
I recently sent you an email suggesting that I was going to “take your website down.” I realize now that I allowed my emotions to get the best of me. My mission isn’t to change your mind about the way I and others decide to do ministry. No one’s going to be converted to Christ by defeating you. So I apologize for my lack of focus and continue to pray for God’s grace to reign in your heart as you approach others.
I recently read this in a book I’m currently re-reading called, “Killing Cockroaches.” I think it summarizes things pretty well.
“…Frankly, it’s our hope that lots of people love what we do. But we also hope that a few people HATE what we do. If we don’t experience those extreme reactions, we’re probably not fulfilling God’s mission for the church. Don’t forget, God despises “lukewarm.” We are a church for those who are unchurched or have given up on church. If we are fully aligned with God’s mission for our ministry, we are going to offend people who love the institution or their version of “the truth” more than they love the people the Truth was intended to reach. So love us or hate us, we love you.”
“Killing Cockroaches”
Tony Morgan
Page 118
Merry Christmas, Greg.
Mark
"If we are to achieve results never before accomplished, we must expect to employ methods never before attempted." Sir Francis Bacon
Pastor Mark Walters
Phone: 613-824-2524
Fax: 613-824-2905
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And from St. Marcus
Dear Mr. Jackson,
I happened upon your 12/12/08 blog entry entitled "Ichabod, The Glory Has Departed" and I do not think that it would be an exaggeration on my part to say that it wounded my heart to read it. Prior to seeing it I was as one living in a dream where there was a oneness in the Body of Christ on this earth that exemplified the oneness that Jesus shares with His Father, this oneness being the answer to Jesus’ prayer in John 17 (verses 11, 21, 22 & 23) that causes the unsaved world who observes it to come to the place of believing that the Father did in fact send His Son, Jesus … but this was before I rubbed elbows with you. As if being abruptly awakened from that dream I am once again reminded that there are still Pharisees out there, each sincerely believing that he or she is upholding the faith by defending his or her own particular brand of Christian turf, and I of all people should not be surprised by this because it wasn’t too long ago that I myself was a Pharisee, though at the time I would’ve strongly opposed anyone who had half their scriptural wits about them had they even tried to suggest that such was the case! And you can trust me when I say that it took an act of God’s divine mercy to knock me off of that high horse and to then direct my path to St. Marcus where I am now a member who is more than grateful to be there growing in His grace and prospering in His will for my life as I am being taught His Word … something which even if my life had depended upon it just a few short years ago I would’ve never believed could happen because of my unbending pharisaical mindset. What is it that bolsters Pharisees like I once was to pride themselves in defending their small lifeless congregations while at the same time feeling the need to lash out at and label larger congregations as being Ichabods for thriving? Could it be that these attacks issue forth from a place of unacknowledged (if even realized) fear because of not being as sure as they profess themselves to be that their numbers are small solely because they are God’s chosen "remnant", or because of whatever other supposed scriptural reason that they can come up with?
Please know that I will be praying for you and because I have walked in your shoes I am comforted to think that perhaps my prayers on your behalf will prevail where someone else's who hasn't might otherwise fail.
May the Lord’s Name be glorified in this instance, and always!
[Signed but I omitted the signature]
WELS Fond du Loot Pastor Donates 10 Grand to Himself - Church and Change Connections Galore: Ripped from the Pages of the Fond du Lac Reporter
Zak graduated from the Sausage Factory, 1982, with such Shrinker luminaries as:
James Mattek, Peter Pan-denominational, Paul Jahnke,
Bruce Becker,
Mark Freier, Mike Albrecht, and Jeff Gunn.
FdL minister accused of stealing from his church
The longtime pastor of a Fond du Lac church is accused of stealing as much as $10,000 from church offerings collected during the holidays, a police official says.
The Rev. Stuart Zak, 55, resigned from Good Shepherd Lutheran Church, 855 Martin Ave., Nov. 30 after he confessed to stealing money over a period of 10 years, according to a press release issued by church pastor, the Rev. Brett Naumann.
“The Fond du Lac Police Department was alerted by staff at Good Shepherd after they discovered missing cash — a discrepancy — in offerings made during holiday seasons,” said Major Kevin Lemke.
An internal investigation revealed the church was missing between $5,000 and $10,000, said Lemke.
“The suspect has spoken with police and has admitted to stealing the money from the offerings,” Lemke said. “We believe the investigation will be wrapped up by the end of the week.”
Zak told The Reporter he would not comment on the alleged theft.
In the release, Naumann said Zak would no longer be allowed to serve as pastor in any Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod program. Good Shepherd is one of three WELS churches in Fond du Lac. It has a congregation of 450.
Naumann declined to comment when asked why Zak stole the money.
“Even as we grieve over this turn of events, we thank Mr. Zak for the many blessings that the Lord has brought to Good Shepherd through his work,” Naumann said. “The Lord has brought about amazing growth both spiritually and physically through the work that was accomplished through Mr. Zak during his years of service as a pastor.”
Zak became pastor at Good Shepherd Lutheran Church in 1993. He served on the Board for Wisconsin Lutheran Child and Family Service, the District Board for Parish Education as coordinator of early childhood education, a consultant for Parish Assistance and Northern Wisconsin District chairman of Evangelism, according to his past profile on the Good Shepherd Web site.
Lemke, a 28-year veteran of the Police Department, said he couldn’t recall a case of a “person of the cloth” stealing money from a church.
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| Small town evangelism | Stuart A. Zak | May 1988 |
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For more information and registration go to www.wels.net/evangelism and click on Welcoming Worship Seminar, or contact the district evangelism coordinator the Rev. Stuart Zak (920-921-8500 or email).
That means Zak arranged for Ski to do evangelism presentations for the district, two years in a row.
***
GJ - One WELS pastor has suggested having all accounts audited wherever Zak was involved.
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rlschultz has left a new comment on your post "WELS Fond du Loot Pastor Donates 10 Grand to Himse...":
There is something subliminally creepy about stealing from a congregation's offering, no matter who does it. The recommendation for an audit in other areas outside of the congregation could be very telling. My guess is that skimming the pocket change from offerings could be small potatoes in comparison.
There is one missing detail in the story. I cannot determine how the pastor even had access to the offerings. This is especially true in this age of night depository boxes at banks. The counting and recording of the offerings is always done by laity such as a finance committee, trustees, financial secretary or a combination of them. This was true 40 years ago when my father was involved with it.
At my previous congregation, after the offerings were counted and recorded, they went into the bank bag with the deposit slip and dropped into the night depository on the way home.
There appears to be a defect in the manner in which this was done at Zak's former parish. The offerings sit in the plates on the altar until after the service. There is usually more than one member who counts it. The treasurer or bookkeeper will have some notice from the bank as to the exact amount of the deposit. All of this is designed to minimize the contact that a pastor would have with the offerings. There are several checks and balances. Please pardon the unintentional pun.
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GJ - Some bad ideas are:
1. Having only one person count the offering.
2. Leaving the offering at the church, even in a safe.
3. Letting the treasurer count the offering.
4. Giving the same person permission to write checks and count the offering.
5. Assuming everything is fine and never having an annual audit. Federal Reserve - take note.
I was skeptical about the money spent on financial controls at the Love Shack when SP Schroeder took office. That was needed, as insiders know, and the results have been good.
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PJL has left a new comment on your post "WELS Fond du Loot Pastor Donates 10 Grand to Himse...":
For much of this year I've been a daily reader of "Ichabod." (By the way, I found it when I did a google search of "WELS.") Though many in our synod may not appreciate this blog, I must admit that it does provide more realistic news of what's happening in the WELS than we'd ever get through the official channels. And it's true, going through the official channels simply means that your question or concern is usually "forgotten." Either that, or you're passed from one ecclesiatical official to the other with no one really willing to step up and say what needs to be said.
Since this is true, I can imagine that Pastor Jackson easily became frustrated during his days in the WELS trying to get his DP and others to listen to him. That may explain his biting sarcasm on this blog. If he were simply expressing concerns in a nice way, no one would probably listen!
That said, I'd like to caution all of us from thinking everything that happens to someone in the WELS is because of CGM and Church and Change. Neither is everyone who sins a shrinker.
I'm a WELS pastor in the area around Lake Winnebago. Stu Zak has been part of our pastoral conference. I don't know him real well, but I don't believe we need to connect his personal sins to the shrinkers.
There are many who are hurt by Pastor Zak's actions. Most unfortunately, the gospel and the credibility of gospel ministry in and around FDL is taking a hit from his actions. Just take a look through the ignorant comments to the article at the FDL Reporter website to find that out.
So, while I, too, smell the stench of CGM and secrecy coming from parts of Appleton, I'm not so sure I can smell it in Fond du Lac.
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PJL has left a new comment on your post "WELS Fond du Loot Pastor Donates 10 Grand to Himse...":
Oh no, I've been found out! Actually, I knew that someone would find me if I gave even a hint of where I was from.
One of the things I admire about Pastor Jackson, Michael Shottey and others on this blog is that they're willing to step out and be counted. They sign their names.
If you want to know ...
1) We print out the service because many of our elderly members find it easier to hold a bulletin than a hymnal. So, I listen to the people I serve.
2) Yes, I make use of a screen and PowerPoint. I had stopped doing this for about nine months, but again, many of our members, even some seniors, told me how much it helped them. They said that they're visual learners. So, again, I listen to the people I serve.
3) I didn't know that the NIV was tacky. It's the version of Scripture I've been using since I was ten years old!
Make me to be what you want me to be. Since you found me, feel free to e-mail or call so I can know more about you.
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Anonymous has left a new comment on your post "WELS Fond du Loot Pastor Donates 10 Grand to Himse...":
>>>But watch out!!
No use of the hymnal (merely printed for "ease of use", no doubt. More like ashamed of ancient text if you ask me)<<<
Did you bother to notice that the church in question is using the Common Service from Christian Worship? It's not the Lutheran Hymnal, but this service is rooted in the Western Rite that dates back to at least the third century A.D.
It does not help the cause to lambaste pastors who are actually upholding liturgical worship, especially in such a superficial manner.
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GJ - The pastor is not a Shrinker, based on several marks (notae). He has a statement of faith which emphasizes the Means of Grace. I find his wording a bit awkward overall, but it does seem to be his own rather than something borrowed from the Evangelical Covenant Church. Kelming another confession is something I noticed at Gunn's sect and some other quasi-WELS parishes. Also, this pastor gave away his identity, which is very un-Growthy. His response to criticism was light-hearted, very unlike the Shrinkers I know. They rage and fume, but always anonymously.
I saw no link to Time of Generic Grace, which is one good indication by itself. He did not say, "God has blessed this congregation with membership growth ever since I arrived," - typical of Shrinkers. See Dom Perignon Patterson and VP Huebner.
As Paul said in Galatians, neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails, so we should not condemn based on the hymnal or Bible translation. This pastor is explicit about the Means of Grace on his website, something I hardly saw in WELS or Missouri over the years.
WELS pastors are starting to feel safe in being Lutheran. That is a good sign.
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Michael Schottey has left a new comment on your post "WELS Fond du Loot Pastor Donates 10 Grand to Himse...":
Pastor Lidtke...another in a long line of younger men from the Michigan District that I can't wait to be old enough to be "in charge."
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GJ - The Chicaneries know they are losing. That is why the attacks on the blog are mounting. Of course, Chicanery attacks are like being stoned to death by popcorn.
Did I say popcorn? I wasn't even thinking even Ski.
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