Providing a response here is better visibility rather than getting buried in comments. My thoughts in italics below...
Rev. Paul A. Rydecki said...
Hi Joe, (Say, the next time you write an open letter to Intrepid Lutherans, be sure to actually send a copy to Intrepid Lutherans. Someone directed me to your letter, or else I would never have seen it.)
An open letter assumes that the intended audience will see the letter one way or another. I knew one of you would. I am extremely appreciative that you took the time not only to read, but to also offer your comments.
First, I sympathize with you and your family over the turmoil you're going through. I don't know your whole situation, but I wish the dialogue on justification between you and your pastor hadn't been so quickly taken "off the table," as it were. It sounds like there's lots to talk about and study yet.
Quite frankly it never got on the table. We traded some email correspondence until we met after an Elders meeting in February. Instead of pulling out a Bible and discussing it I was met with 'who has your ear' and 'this isn't a topic that is typical from of a layman'. There is no need to go into all detail. Suffice it say that even though he agreed there were no saints in hell and the Becker/Kokomo thing went too far he did not let me get out of the meeting without feeling less than adequate since; I didn't know Greek; He has had calls to Mequon and has theological kahoonies (his term) and that the topic is better left to scholars...end of discussion. Soon enough there was a sermon where he used an example of forgiveness that didn't sound quite right and another discussion ensued regarding UOJ. In April we had another meeting. There were other issues that had come to the surface that were discussed, but when we got to UOJ, there was no discussion. I was pounded in front of another pastor and the president of the congregation. I was told that if I didn't ask the right questions, I wouldn't get the right answers; that my faith and membership in WELS was in jeopardy if I didn't get my head around it all. I needed to quit dancing in cyberspace with certain people. So yes, there needed to be more study.
To your letter: I disagree that my comment above was convoluted and "esoteric," and I also disagree with your answer of "No" to the question, "Was forgiveness acquired before repentance?", so I'm not sure if we're on the same page here or not. As I explained in the first part of my comment above, forgiveness was most certainly acquired by Christ for all people of all times (therefore, without respect to anyone's repentance). Forgiveness is not distributed to anyone apart from the Means of Grace. The forgiveness that Christ acquired for all is acquired by an individual through faith alone, worked by the Holy Spirit through the Means of Grace.
I think you're actually confusing the issue when you bring repentance into it. It just adds another dimension that is not necessary if your point is to keep it simple. "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." Whether quoting from Genesis 15 or from Romans 3 or 4, repentance isn't brought into the picture. But faith is. Stick with talking about faith, in my opinion. This would also be in keeping with the historical Lutheran understanding of the "ingredients" of justification: 1) The grace of God, 2) The merit of Christ, 3) The promise (Means of Grace), and 4) Faith in the promise.
In a way you are also saying that one is not asking the right question, but when I see your explanation (thank you!) I see where you are coming from and I would say I am on the same page with you. The problem I see and that of others is; where is this forgiveness? Others, myself included are thinking in terms of men when we say 'is forgiveness distributed before faith'. The answer to this is no. But when you posed it as you did, it became more of a riddle. Of course there is forgiveness before faith in the sense that Christ was forgiven for our sins. It has to be there in order for us to receive it through faith. But it was Christ that was forgiven for our sins and was justified and this is objectively for the world - and received through faith - this is the correct teaching of Objective Justification...the forgiveness of sins in the Third Article. But this is not what Patterson nor others are teaching. They go too far imputing it on all the world regardless of faith. It is the wrong 'hoi polloi'. Better to talk of one justification (Christ's) received through faith. This makes the faith of all believers of all time the same as Paul preaches in Romans 4.
I think I would agree with you (not having read everything you've written on the matter) that it is not right to say that you, Joe Krohn, were forgiven before you were born. Scripture does not talk that way, nor do our Confessions, nor does Chemnitz in his Examination. Is there forgiveness in Christ for all? Yes. Did God love you before you were born and see to it that his Gospel was preached to you that you might believe and be saved? Yes. But before you were in Christ, you, like the rest of us, were still counted among "the wicked."
This from an email from Pastor Patterson towards the end of our discussion...it flies in the face of things said here...4-20-11 "I have communicated with you honestly and with the intentions of love. Your desire to make everything that is justification dependent upon faith instead of making justification that beautiful gospel that creates the faith in our hearts -- is false doctrine."
Again, I don't know enough of your particular situation, but speaking in general, I can't imagine why anyone would be excommunicated (from a Lutheran church) for holding to justification by faith alone in Christ, as long as "faith" is not ascribed to man as man's good work, and as long as "faith" is defined as nothing more than to believe in God's promise of mercy for Christ's sake.
Agreed!!!
Peace be with you. Pr. Rydecki
Again, Pastor thank you for commenting. I had been WELS all my life. But it is not the same Synod it was. Thank you for your post of yesterday on IL...that is the church I yearn for.
In His Grace,
Joe
***
GJ - Patterson has no educational or doctrinal qualifications to teach at a Lutheran institution. He is so gonzo about Enthusiasm that he gathered WELS workers for the Exponential conference in Orlando, Florida.
The parson kicking out a faithful member should be kicked out of the ministry, just for that. But a district VP can do anything he wants. If DP Glaeske is so critical of DP Englebrecht for mishandling Appleton, why not show WELS what it means to be Lutheran?
But DPs can do anything they want. Pastors--even the SP--shrug their shoulders and say, "There is nothing we can do." They could apply the Word of God and the Confessions, but they do not...so far.
The Shrinker Sisterhood is scared now, so this is the time to give them doctrinal wedgies. Press home all the issues and connect them. I will help:
- Exponential trip
- UOJ conference
- Following Fuller methods and doctrine
Let's look at some Patterson logical fallacies:
- He received calls to Mequon. That is a false appeal to authority. Getting a call, from an apostate board to serve with an apostate faculty, does not refute justification by faith.
- Patterson studied Greek. That was Glende's argument too. They are saying that some study of Greek proves they are right. But the most ardent UOJ fanatics admit that justification in the Greek New Testament means justification by faith and nothing else. False appeal to authority.
- Joe is not a Biblical scholar, and these matters should be left to the scholars. This is the Roman Catholic priesthood argument, another false appeal to authority. "Leave it to the lower-archy, Joe. We will tell you what to think."
- "Who has your ear?" can be labeled several ways. One is called poisoning the well. In other words, start attacking the source as toxic. This might also be wending its way into a personal attack (ala Tim Glende, Jenswold, and Pope Paul the Unlearned). All logical fallacies are attempts to avoid the issue, to deflect the other person from relevant details.
Patterson has authority issues, typical in an abusive sect. Those who pervert the Christian faith use their office to intimidate, threaten, and guilt-i-fy anyone who questions authority.
Shouting and getting angry helps a lot - helps the abusive. Most people shrink back from such behavior, not realizing it is a sure sign of fear.
I do not need to scream at someone to prove the Packers won the last Superbowl. It is a fact published on the Net and embedded in the soul of every God-fearing WELS member.
