raklatt (http://raklatt.myopenid.com/) has left a new comment on your post "NNIV in WELS: Pro and Con. The Convicts Love the ...":
I applaud the efforts of Pastors Boehringer and Tomczak. If the NNIV can be kept from adoption by WELS, that will be a good thing.
On the other hand, the choices offered as alternatives seem less than satisfactory to me. Let us look at a couple of passages only. My research time is limited.
KJV/ 21st Century KJV Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore and teach all nations…..
and
KJV/21st Century KJV 1 Corinthians 10:16 The cup of blessing which we bless: is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break: is it not the communion of the body of Christ?
In the Matthew passage, the ESV, HCSB, NASB and the NKJV all convert ‘teach’ into ‘make disciples’. The discussion has been going on a long time. It is the Holy Spirit who makes disciples through their hearing of the Word. Pastors and laymen alike do not make disciples. Instead, they can only teach people using the Word. The Holy Spirit, always with the Word, does the making.
William Beck in his AAT and Young’s Literal both say “disciple all nations”. That is awkward in English but common sense would indicate they are both saying ‘teach’. Luther once said of his efforts at translation that it is difficult to make Hebrew speak German. So, too, it must be difficult to make some Greek verbs speak either German or English. We do not understand ‘disciple’ as a verb. We do understand ‘teach’.
Luther’s translation says ‘lehret alle Volker’, which may well be where the King James folks got ‘teach’.
In the Corinthians passage, there is wider variance. Instead of ‘communion’, the ESV used ‘participation’ along with the NIV. The HCSB and the NASB both say ‘sharing in the blood/body’. Young’s Literal uses the term ‘fellowship’. It seems to me that ‘sharing’ and ‘fellowship’ are not specific and would need many additional words to be precise. The sacrament is in fact Christ coming to us individually. That would eliminate politically correct sharing. The NKJV retains ‘communion’ as does the AAT.
Luther employs ’gemeinschaft’ which I found means ‘community’. Close enough.
Looking at 1 Corinthians 10:18, we find enough variations to cause serious confusion.
As an old Lutheran, brought up on the King James version, I will stick with the KJV and the 21st Century KJV. The latter only attempts to relieve the confusion created by some of the old words, because they have become obsolete or indefinable, by substituting reasonable alternatives. The 21st Century King James Version holds well to the King James text and does not tinker with verses that are key to the Lutheran doctrine, the Christian faith.
Could it be that the search for the best translation would lead not to a choice among the most popular current translations but to the English translation that has been around the longest, is close to Tyndale and to Luther, and has done a good job for 400 years? Seems like a good idea to me. If people have been so poorly taught and find the KJV or the 21st Century KJV hard to deal with, that is what Bible Study classes are for.
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GJ - That is an excellent post, Ray. I talked this over with Mrs. Ichabod, fluent in German.
LUO 1 Corinthians 10:16 Der gesegnete Kelch, welchen wir segnen, ist der nicht die Gemeinschaft des Blutes Christi? Das Brot, das wir brechen, ist das nicht die Gemeinschaft des Leibes Christi?
She agreed that Gemeinschaft is "getting together" and communion is a good English translation of the German. Or we might say the German means "togetherness with," although I would not use that even in the Jackson Living Bible.
English is profoundly influenced by German and Latin.
The Latin is communicatio - communion.
Participation is lame and anti-Sacramental.
WELS already has its Bible, the NIV. They excommunicate those who disagree with it.
The NIV rejects the sacraments and turns a Gospel admonition into Law - Go and manufacture disciples (diciples for Stetzer). The essence of Church Growth is manufacturing disciples, anti-Sacramental Pietism. Joel Gerlach, the WELS sem professor who studied at Fuller, argued in an essay - disciples making disciples who make disciples who make disciples. And no one laughed!
Because Fuller and Willow Creek--the main training centers for the faculties and staff of WELS and Missouri--are also feminazi centers, a feminazi Bible is required.
The Shrinkers will fight hard for the NNIV, because they have principles.
The so-called conservatives do not have principles. They will compromise on anything to get that foreign mission call, that new parish, that bowl of lentils.
I have a variation on the new WELS mantra: "We all know that no translation is perfect."
Mine is, "We all know that no one has improved on the KJV, which is modeled after Luther's."
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Ray Klatt added:
My thanks to Mrs. Ichabod for her fluency in German and to Ichabod for expanding on 'Gemeinschaft". I had to leave it at 'close enough' due to time constraints.
I was glad when my lengthy remarks were accepted as a comment. I was overwhelmed when they showed up as a separate post. Thank you for adding that very appropriate graphic. If all the effort indicates is there are people out here who care about what the Word says, the time was well spent.
I appreciated all your comments below the graphic. I got stirred up when all those inadequate translations were suggested as possibles. Lutherans forget to inquire where those translations come from and who was involved with them. I told Mark Porinsky at Faith/Dexter a long time ago that I was amazed that the WELS reps who attended the NIV84 meetings didn't walk out in disgust. The reaction was a blank stare.
To be concerned about why the NIV84 texts can no longer be used after a certain date is to miss the point. Any company or corporation under the control of Rupert Murdoch is out to make money. Murdoch's Zonderan then becomes a Schwan Foundation in reverse. Funny world.
Thanks again. I hope I have helped to stir the right pot.
Ray Klatt
