Holding Steady by Being Lefty? Iliff Methodist Seminary

Denver's Methodist Seminary Holding Steady

At a time when theology schools and seminaries are downsizing, merging or closing, Denver’s Iliff School of Theology is holding steady.

The United Methodist-related school, tucked next to the University of Denver on South University Boulevard and East Iliff Avenue, is little known around the metro but has garnered a national reputation as a progressive theology school rooted in social justice causes. And that reputation might be what’s saving them.

Fewer students have been attending theological schools; enrollment dropped 9 percent in the U.S. and Canada from 2007 to 2017, when there were 72,896 students. That drop comes as Pew Research studies find that fewer Americans identify as religious, a change largely attributed to the growing number of millennials who aren’t members of any organized religion.

But despite the grim picture, the United Methodist seminary has been able to buck the downward trend, surviving in part because of its liberal theology instead of rigid doctrine that is more typical of many religious seminaries, administrators say.

“That is not Iliff’s future,” school President Tom Wolfe said of seminaries closing. “That is not even in our thinking. We are turning this exactly in the opposite direction.”

Students seek social justice

While Mina Nau pursued a career in fashion in Los Angeles, she stayed with a family friend whose son was in San Quentin State Prison.

She answered the phone once when he called. Nau could tell he needed advice, so she dropped a Bible verse. The two began writing and talking about faith. After the fifth letter, they began dating. They’ve been together for six years.

Nau’s boyfriend repeatedly urged her to study theology. He wasn’t the first to make that suggestion. Nau’s family is from Tonga, a Polynesian kingdom of South Pacific islands, and Christianity is one of the biggest tenets of Tongan culture. Eventually, Nau, 35, decided her boyfriend might be right.

“I really don’t know how I ended up (at Iliff) but I was spiritually led to be here and it totally makes sense,” said Nau. “It’s a social justice-oriented institution. It’s the perfect place for me because they care for people who are rejected and not accepted in society.”

Between 35 and 40 faiths are represented in the school’s roughly 300-person student body. Around 30 percent openly identify as LGBTQ.

Four Faculty Promoted to Full Professor

Published on June 18, 2018

 Gail Murphy-Geiss, Sociology

Gail Murphy-Geiss, SociologyMurphy-Geiss earned her Ph.D. in religion and social change at University of Denver/Iliff School of Theology and became an assistant professor at Colorado College in 2004. She teaches Gender Inequality, Sociology of Religion, Sociology of Family, Research Design and Thinking Sociologically. She also teaches courses in the Feminist and Gender Studies program and has taught the course, Contemporary French Society in Lyon, France. One student described Murphy-Geiss’s teaching as follows: “She worked to provide an alternative to the narrative that permeates our culture — the idea that everything around us can be traced back to individuals and their psychology, rather than social forces. At its core, this required constant (and frequently uncomfortable) critical thought. Given the nature of sociology, this also required us to think critically about our own lives and social positioning. It takes a special person to cultivate such a space for this. She always contextualized the need for such critical thought, as well.”
Since earning tenure in 2010, Murphy-Geiss has authored or co-authored three journal articles and two book chapters. The most recent article, “One Size Does Not Fit All: A Case Study of an Alternative Intimate Partner Violence Court,” was published in Feminist Criminology. 

Good Lutheran Congregations Are Still Active in the Means of Grace

Dear Pastor Greg,

This is the church that you had recommended that I give a try... This is probably one of the few genuinely Confessional churches left in the area, based on the observations of prior peregrinations through various Lutheran churches in the area.

Thanks again for your recommendation - I feel that for the first time at least in my adult life I belong to a Real Church - a blessing indeed! 

Yours, in Christ,

***

GJ - I edited the letter, so the message reminds people to look for a faithful pastor and congregation. That is the ideal, to be in a local congregation.

LCMS: The Neo-Quasi Lutherans versus the Neo-Quasi-Lutherans. The Creation Fight Masks Universal Modernism

Lammerts developed the Queen Elizabeth and Chrysler Imperial roses, and - in spite of his PhD in genetics - advocated the Six-Day Creation, without modern improvements.

Christian News has been covering a fight about Creation in the Missouri Synod. The issue seems to be the Biblical account of Creation in Six Days (24-hour days) versus modifications that would remove a conflict between science and the LCMS. Concordia St. Louis was deeply offended at being questioned by two LCMS districts and fired off a faculty letter accusing those districts of slander, violating the Eighth Commandment, and torturing little kittens. OK, I added the last charge.

 We plant Queen Elizabeth roses everywhere we live, in memory of our daughters Bethany and Erin Joy. The rose is still so loved that people need to order early in the season.

Here Is the Real Problem
The LCMS is saturated with UOJ advocates, though they seldom lead with their weakest argument. Starting with the sex cult leader Martin Stephan, they have taught the anti-Reformation dogma of an Easter absolution of the entire world: without the Word, without the Means of Grace, without faith.

They almost always call this dogma from Halle University Pietism - Justification. They consider themselves heirs of the Lutheran Reformation but they utterly reject Luther's Biblical doctrine - Justification by Faith. The Terrible Twelve deny the efficacy of the Word - from

1. Charles Arand to 
2. Herman Otten to 
3. Jay Webber to 
4. Jon-Boy Buchholz to
5. Frosty Bivens to
6. David Valleskey
7. Jack Cascione to 
8. Steve Flo to
9. John W. Montgomery to
10. Paul McCain to 
11. Rolf-Dan Preus to 
12. Matt the Fatt Hisself.

In fact, Mrs. Harrison explained to me on Facebook - "There is Objective Justification and Subjective Justification." That Halle-derived face-plant is now featured in the new LCMS catechism (one more insult against Luther's 500th).

Lammerts developed the Chrysler Imperial rose, which outlasted the car it was supposed to promote.

Those named above are in the same modernistic, rationalistic camp, denying the efficacy of the Word. Although there are exceptions within the LCMS, the villains named represent the monopoly on dogma in the LCMS, WELS, ELS, CLC, and ELCA.

The efficacy and power of God's Word is foundational and central to the Biblical witness. Often, it is in the background as the Holy Spirit working through the Word, but that does not mean slighting or denying the Word's efficacy leaves the remaining articles of faith untouched.

 Please read all of Romans 4 before making such idiotic claims.

Universal Objective Justification - in its various disguises (OJ/SJ; General Justification; the Justification of the World) - denies the efficacy of the Word and the Means of Grace.  UOJ claims that in some mysterious moment, never agreed upon, God absolved every single person in the world, all the way back to Adam and into the future. This absolution also means salvation, as Buchholz has written and WELS has proclaimed in a banner "You Are Saved, Just Like Me."

 Norma A. Boeckler
When will this Creation comparison sink in with the Neo-Quasi-Lutheran leaders?

If we deny the efficacy of the Word in Justification by Faith, then we are implicitly denying the efficacy of the Word in every article of faith. There is no grocery cart - all the articles are part of the One Truth taught by the Holy Scriptures. The modernists pick what they want, but they are like children given their freedom at Walmart. Kids load the unguarded cart with sweets and toys. The UOJ synods do the same with clown entertainment "worship", quota evangelism, and the latest from Satan's cloaca.

Walther and the Piepers did not convert their synods to UOJ entirely, but they damaged them enough to let the weeds take over in the future:

• Modernism, 
• Unionism, 
• Pentecostalism, and 
• The excretions of the holy men of Fuller Seminary, whose gross and disgusting output continues to be saved and worshiped as sacred relics.

The Terrible Twelve are all modernists? Take them at their words, their vocabulary, their objects of adoration:

1. They say (Bivens/Zarling) that UOJ is the Chief Article of Christianity, not Justification by Faith.
2. They teach (Harrison, LCMS) OJ and SJ, two peculiar ideas that completely avoid faith in Christ.
3. They claim (Lazy Jay Webber, Kilcrease) that Luther taught OJ!  

Although Otten and McCain loathe each each other now, despite a warm and secretive friendship long ago, they agree in banning and silencing any mention of Justification by Faith, any criticism of their precious UOJ.

The Book of Concord, Formula of Concord, Solid Declaration, Article III, The Righteousness of Faith, #6

This article concerning justification by faith (as the Apology says) is the chief article in the entire Christian doctrine, without which no poor conscience can have any firm consolation, or can truly know the riches of the grace of Christ, as Dr. Luther also has written: If this only article remains pure on the battlefield, the Christian Church also remains pure, and in goodly harmony and without any sects; but if it does not remain pure, it is not possible that any error or fanatical spirit can be resisted. (Tom. 5, Jena, p. 159.) 

 Aptly named - Concordia.

All in the Same Sinking Ship

If the Six Day Creationists cannot teach Justification by Faith, they are no better - even worse for masking their deception - than the worst modernists they denounce.

The question is not, Did God create in Six Days?, but do you teach the efficacy of the Word in all matters of faith? 

The efficacy of the Word answers: 

1. The Creation in Six Days, 
2. The Incarnation and Virgin Birth,
3. The consecration of the elements of Holy Communion,
4. Justification by Faith.

Gideon - On Thy Strong Word: The Efficacy of the Word in the Scriptures and the Lutheran Confessions

 Thy Strong Word: The Efficacy of the Word in the Scriptures and the Lutheran Confessions

Pastor,

This book, Thy Strong Word: The Efficacy of the Word in the Scriptures and the Lutheran Confessions which cost me nothing-- you gave it to me, has been a phenomenal read.  There have been many insightful portions of the text that made me simply stop and ponder...or in many instances when I thought I have previously had an original profound thought, it's here in the book.  It's really a textbook if you get down to it.

I've been taking the slow read through the book, and I find myself now in Part IV - Kokomo/LCMS Error - Forgiveness without Faith.  This is the stuff of which you write often in your blog, where you'll touch on this or that facet of the subject.  But here in the book, the topic is developed linearly.  J.P. Meyer has had a lot of press already, but these things really caught my eye:

1.  Page 236:

A history of the recent conflicts about justification would be interesting to read and large enough to fill several books, but it would not be edifying.  Too many articles have death with the recent history of the conflict.  Too often the discussion revolves around the latest opinions offered in America, as if Lutherans hold the quia subscription to the writings of Walther, Pieper, and synodical commissions.  As one minister wrote, "Are you calling Walther a false teacher?"  This attitude runs contrary to what Chemnitz states from the earliest history of the Christian Church, that we must return to the source when the discussion is murky.  The we must set aside the bulk of material and return to the Scriptures and the Book of Concord.  Otherwise, we fall into the folly of orthodoxism, where every single statement of each Synodical Conference author must be viewed as part of a seamless and infallible garment, invulnerable to criticism.  This attitude is exactly what we find in the Church of Rome."

Wow.  And, I've seen examples of this:  Young pastors who don't test the dogma.  I was told myself when Rydecki was expelled not to even investigate why.  Rydecki challenged the synod's view of justification, and that was all I should know.

2. Page 242: 

"Doctrinal Shorthand" where a correct statement is truncated and repeated until it was instituted:

"

A.  Correct -- We are saved in view of faith apprehending the merits of Christ.

B.  Incorrect -- We are saved in view of faith.  The shortened version made people think that faith itself was a virtue or a frame of mind generated by man."

Then the cries of Fideism arise out of the distortion of "B"

As genuinely helpful this book is, it is with sadness I write this email because this is an indictment against my former church body.  They got so much right, but this stubbornness as demonstrated in example 1 above, which basically says "This is the way Daddy did it, and this is the way we're going to do it".....it's so insidious because while they think their are protecting themselves from liberalism by being staunch in their views, they don't realize that they could be slowly wrapping themselves in error.  Layer by layer by layer, like an old water heater or car radiator.  Any why?  For pride.

Ironically, if my understanding of the Wauwatosa theologians is correct, part of their mission was to get back to the source, as Chemnitz suggested.  They more or less eschewed the church fathers and wanted to go back to the Scriptures.  Since then the layers seem to have accumulated, and unfortunately CNC/CG layers have been applied lately -- with seemingly no way to remove them.  Such is the folly of "orthodoxism" (not orthodoxy)

SDG,

Gideon

***

GJ - That was going to be my last word on those topics, Gideon. I am glad people are still reading it, because the book is just basic Christian doctrine, as ignored and trashed by WELS, LCMS, ELS, CLC, and ELCA. 

I appreciate the continuous opposition because that has energized more study and more books.

Creation Software - The Impossible Trap for Rationalists

If we concede that God created over vast millions of years - not that I would - even then, an impossible trap remains for anyone side-stepping the Six Day Creation (six 24-hour days, not six billion years).

I will explain the trap first, then show how the concept harmonizes with the truth of Creation.

The Great Pyramid was sheathed in limestone and capped perhaps in gold, 481 feet high, 2.5 cubic meters in volume.

We all admire engineering. I am fascinated more than most, because the basics are far beyond me. The Great Pyramid of Giza was the tallest man-made object on earth until the Eifel Tower was built, 40 centuries later. So I wonder - why did they take all that trouble? What was the purpose and the tools used?

 "Your car will not last," an attorney told me, 9 years ago.

Sassy says, "Oh?"

Our limo is a superbly engineered car. With all its troubles, due to 24 years age and 210,000 mileage, it still works well and floats through traffic. My car-building friend says that comes from the people who built it, taking great pride in their workmanship.

Software
No matter how good the engineering of Creation is, all the moving parts need software to run them.

The moment the Shasta Daisies bloom, Tachinid Flies land on the flowers. I want this to happen because the flies destroy garden pests, especially aphids.

The same effect can be observed when Parsley attracts the Black Swallowtail Butterfly and Milkweed the Monarch. The complex software in the insect brains tells them where to feed as adults, where to lay eggs so the children will grow up strong. But flowers have no brains, so how do they attract the kind of attention they need for their own health?

Even more perplexing, recent studies show that the lowly fungus in the soil is sentient, building a self-serving network among the roots to ensure its growth - asking for carbon, giving water and nutrients in exchange. A flower seems quite complicated, compared to a fungus, genius level, but now we learn the fungus is the keystone of soil.

A few glimpses at the natural world tells me that nothing could have worked together if the software managing them developed over a long period of time.

So that becomes an impossible trap for the rationalistic compromise about the Six Day Creation.

Bonus Aha! Moment
Given all the wonders we can see, if we spend a little time gardening, weeding, and bird-watching, one more thing needs to be added to the software argument.

Creation heals itself when damaged by man or cataclysmic events. Destroyed soil will repair itself through weeds blown in or germinated from the energy of the sun. Volcanoes are epic in their violence, but they also create rich soil for some of the best coffee in the world.

When rabbits abound, hawks increase in number, fed by the many lagomorphs. As most biology students know, "nature" tends to build up by the predators taking the weak and diseased prey.

People speak glibly about the Wonders of Nature, but avoid what that includes - Genesis 1 and John 1:3.

 This pose was held by our granddaughter for the camera. No injuries, lots of laughter. Who gave animals a sense of humor? Sassy stepped in to be part of the photo.

Creation Gardeners - Pay Attention to the Newbies

Free Balloon flowers and a free climbing rose
are growing like weeds. This is my photo from yesterday.

I tried something from Direct Gardening, an Internet vendor that has low prices and very small plants. Nevertheless, their Rugosa rose prospered in the back and got promoted to the rose garden. I stuck their free Balloon flowers into the soil, near our front door, and they are really blooming this year.

The Spruce:
The botanical name means "broad bell", but the open flower is really more of a star shape. However, it's the puffy bud that intrigues gardeners and entices them to grow this plant and that gives it its common name of "Balloon Flower".

Balloon flowers are long-lived perennials that rarely need dividing and are deer resistant.

Leaves: Alternate, bright green leaves grow along the stems. This is a clump-forming plant.
Flowers: The flower bud swells up into a puff and slowly opens, passing through a bell shape to a swept back star with five petals, joined at the base. The purple-blue varieties are the most commonly grown, but it also comes in white and shades of pink.
Botanical Name
Platycodon grandiflorus

Common Name:
Balloon Flower, Chinese Bellflower, Japanese Bellflower.

 Butterfly Weed can be quite impressive as the clump grows and flowers. This photo sows some incomplete mulching, which can be fixed with a few more newspapers and  more wood mulch.

Front Door Plants Get Attention
I have stuck plants in odd places because the soil was soft and I did not want to dig into the sod. I tended to forget and neglect them, or they were in zones best suited for very hardy weeds.

I also put Butterfly Weed by the front door. Like most plants that arrive in a cardboard box, they did not look so good the first year. Now they are colorful orange flowers near the front door.

I also scatter Borage seed near the front door, so we can pick the flowers later.

Our Joe Pye Weed Will Look Like This

 Joe Pye is very popular and hard to find later in the season.

Last year, I began two Joe Pye Weeds along the driveway. One grew especially well and attracted butterflies and pollinators like crazy, as predicted in various books and websites.

 The senior Joe Pye plant is ready to bloom, next to the driveway, six feet tall.

The second Joe Pye was weed-eaten and disappeared, but only for a time. The distinctive leaves came up again and I threw a protective rose collar around it.

When I see a nearby plant in need, I give it extra rainwater or stored water. The Joe Pye information said it appreciated extra water, so I have watered Hidden Lily and Joe Pye more often. As a result, the rain yesterday made both plantings look even stronger.

Exotic aromas are an extra benefit of the alternate plantings in the rose garden. Mint is strong coming from Cat Mint and Mountain Mint (both good for bees...and CM for cats). Butterfly Weed has a fragrance I missed but Ranger Bob caught. Joe Pye and Chaste Tree have a Vicks Vapo-Rub aroma.

Roses are herbs too. I was near a single Pink Peace along the fence, and the fragrance was potent.

Not my bushes, not my photo,
but Butterfly Bush will fill the yard with a sweet grape jelly smell.

Quotas Work - Slowly and Destructively - Especially Among the Lutherans

"Promote selective diversity - it worked for me.
I was unqualified and unsuited to be the Presiding Bishop."

Quotas have slowly and destructively worked their way through our various institutions. Those who benefit from quotas expand the demands until the final target is 0% for the other side, however it is defined. Quotas began openly as "reverse discrimination" in the Nixon era. But now they are promoted as

• Diversity
• Inclusion
• Making sure we have the most talented people.

The way to address wrongs in the past would have been to emphasize hiring and promotion based on merit, but that is unlikely to happen in the near future.

"We can fire a former assistant dean of diversity,
if her resume reveals a flaw in the agenda from years ago."

Higher Things, LCMS, loud and proud for UOJ.
Useful idiots are always welcome.

Among the Lutherans - ELCA-WELS-LCMS-ELS-CLC

The quota system is obvious from the results:

1. World and American mission people must be trained at Fuller Seminary or parallel beehives promoting the same garbage.
2. UOJ must be taught and defended at all times.
3. Women teaching men and usurping authority over men are good and healthy for the synod.
4. Debating these ideologies is not allowed, because that suggests there is another side to the issue.
5. To keep the synod brands alive, some carping about the other groups is permitted, but only as a sham. They all work toward the same goals via abortion-loving Thrivent.
6. Working with Rome and the Babtists is good.
7. Incompetents and degenerates are rewarded and protected, but the faithful are punished and shunned.

Otten promotes UOJ and Church Growth while hiding the criminal past of various Lutheran officials and clergy.
The masthead should read Spiked News.

Effluent of These Successful Endeavors:

• Christian News
• Steadfast Lutherans (sic)
• Intrepid Lutherans (sic)
• Higher Things
• LutherQuest (sic)
• Synodical magazines
• Emmaus Conference, where people are blinded.
• Teigen Lectures, named after the Lutheran slandered with impunity by his own, The Little Sect on the Prairie.
• The overpriced colleges and seminaries, failing as fast as Holy Mother Synod.

 "We used to be tokens. Now we are bosses. Try and stop us now."
In the synod, the mighty synod, the quotas sleep tonight.
In the synod, the quiet synod, the quotas sleep tonight.
A-weema-weh, a-weema-weh, a-weema-weh, a-weema-weh.

Gideon on the EHV

Dump the NIV!

Pastor,

I read that exchange Rolf and co.  What caught my eye was the exchange about the EHV, which I've been watching with interest for a few years.  Rolf is Rolf obviously.

Back in 2012 when the resistance to the NNIV was mounting within the WELS, the rebuttal from TEC was "we can't do a translation or use the AAT as a basis of one because we don't know English, but Dr. Moo's team does.  They've got the Collins Bank of English."  To Mark Schroeder's credit, he said that "Well, (so-and-so; can't remember who, might have been John Brug) and I translated Ephesians over a weekend."  The whole thing, as history tells us, ended with no official translation-- although the NNIV emerged at the de facto translation.

But, there were a lot of unhappy pastors and former faculty, and the Wartburg Project was the result of their dissatisfaction with the NNIV.  Brian Keller, a pastor involved in the project wrote a really good essay that defended the KJV and was critical of the NNIV for what it lost in terms of language as well as its gender problems.

Whatever the EHV is or isn't, in on regard it takes a big step in the right direction with regards to the Greek / Hebrew texts.  Rather than simply accepting Vaticanus / Sinaiticus, they use the Textus Receptus based on support from the oldest sources.  As a result, the EHV has a longer New Testament than the NNIV or ESV as many of the verses removed by those translations have been put back....including the ending of Mark's gospel.  This is encouraging because would be nice to have a contemporary translation when I need another look at the verse. (see FAQ's 10, 22, and 30)

To be sure, these WELS/ELS guys are OJ/SJ (as it says in the FAQ), but I haven't looked at the translation in enough detail to see if it is colored by this bias.  You don't have to purchase it either as it is available on Biblegateway.com

SDG,

Gideon

Just Before the Rain Today

June, 2018.
The Crepe Myrtle has benefited from pruning and lavish attention paid to its base: leaves, mushroom compost, red wiggler earthworms, wood mulch, grass clippings, and plant clippings.

Fall, 2012 - Mrs. Ichabod laughed at the size of the Crepe Myrtle, six years ago - by the mailbox. Notice how short it is: plenty of Eastern sun, no shade, but no blooms.

Joe Pye is ready to bloom and attract butterflies.

 Chaste Tree attracts bees with its flowers: it was grown as a medicine to keep monks in line. Fox Valley should order a truckload.

Shasta Daisies expand in clumps and provide cheerful flowers. The moment they bloom, beneficial insects stop by for food.

Crepe Myrtle flowers litter the mulch around the Calladium leaf. Sixteen will sprout under the plant and add color to the base.

Rolf Preus - The LCMS Should Be More Bloodthirsty on UOJ - Like WELS!

 Rolf Preus has stupidly repeated Romans 4:25 as if the verse and chapter are all about Justification without Faith.

Rolf is here to help you blokes with doctrinal problems.

Heiser and Rolf Preus have both been ambivalent about the Chief Article.
Here they are studying and worshiping together.
Every Ft. Wayne grad is a bishop or a pope.

Author Message   Pastor Rolf David Preus (Rolf) Senior Member Username: Rolf Post Number: 9776 Registered: 5-2001 Posted on Tuesday, June 19, 2018 - 9:38 am:       The Book of Concord was published in 1580. Pastor Rolf David Preus   Joe Krohn (Jekster) Advanced Member Username: Jekster Post Number: 569 Registered: 4-2011 Posted on Tuesday, June 19, 2018 - 9:56 am:       "If they color their translation by what they confess about scripture, EHV will be the most accurate English translation ever published." Mr. Gorman; if a translation is colored by one's confession, it's hardly accurate. It's more like the tail wagging the dog.   Steve Ames (Sames) Senior Member Username: Sames Post Number: 1635 Registered: 11-2004 Posted on Tuesday, June 19, 2018 - 2:42 pm:       Daniel Gorman: “WELS translators have only one scriptural confession, the 1584 Book of Concord. If they color their translation by what they confess about scripture, EHV will be the most accurate English translation ever published.” Mr. Gorman, then the translation would be a failure. However, perhaps you are thinking the EHV is faithfully translating the content of Scripture which is what the Book of Concord confesses? As the translators in the below referenced article states: “The Formula of Concord is not sectarian. It is catholic and ecumenical because it promotes the unity of the church by faithfully confessing the content of Scripture.” A “Lutheran” Translation?? Pitfalls and Potential http://wartburgproject.org/wp-content/uploads/2015 /05/A_Lutheran_Translation-Pitfalls_and_Potentials .pdf It would be sectarian or would at the very least be perceived as sectarian. … If we can produce a product that would find some acceptance among other Lutherans and other denominations, rather than being sectarian, the project might instead establish some common ground. But the main reason that our translation is not sectarian is that our translators are not sectarians. They are confessional Lutherans. They understand that while it might be sectarian to translate the Bible, “Jesus said this is my true body,” it is not sectarian to confess, “This is the true body and blood of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.” The translators understand the difference between presenting a Lutheran understanding of Scripture in a confessional statement and importing that interpretation into the words of a translation. What determines whether or not a translation is sectarian is not how many people produced it or how many people use it but how faithful it is to the divinely intended meaning of Scripture. The Vulgate, which was used by millions of people for centuries and was the Bible which nourished Luther, was sectarian when it translated the first gospel promise, “She [Mary] will crush the serpent’s head.” When Luther revised the Vulgate and translated, “He [Christ] will crush the serpent’s head,” his one-man translation was not sectarian but truly catholic. The Formula of Concord is not sectarian. It is catholic and ecumenical because it promotes the unity of the church by faithfully confessing the content of Scripture. The same would be true of a translation made by confessional Lutherans. A translation made by confessional Lutherans would not be “a Lutheran translation” which introduced a Lutheran bias into the text. It would be a translation by Lutherans which honestly set forth the meaning of the text. …   Daniel Gorman (Heinrich) Senior Member Username: Heinrich Post Number: 3698 Registered: 11-2004 Posted on Tuesday, June 19, 2018 - 4:11 pm:       Steve Ames: "However, perhaps you are thinking the EHV is faithfully translating the content of Scripture which is what the Book of Concord confesses?" No person is a blank slate. If the Book of Concord doesn't color the WELS translation, something else will. If the WELS translators were to discover a passage that disagrees with the Book of Concord, I believe they would humbly and prayerfully examine the text very closely to determine where they had erred. If they were unable to find their mistake, they would abandon their translation project (or their confession). Finishing the Wartburg Project is, therefore, prima facie evidence that the Book of Concord has colored the WELS translation.   Pastor Rolf David Preus (Rolf) Senior Member Username: Rolf Post Number: 9778 Registered: 5-2001 Posted on Tuesday, June 19, 2018 - 5:23 pm:       Does anyone know where I can get copies of An American Translation at a reasonable price? Pastor Rolf David Preus   Steve Ames (Sames) Senior Member Username: Sames Post Number: 1636 Registered: 11-2004 Posted on Tuesday, June 19, 2018 - 6:04 pm:       Daniel Gorman: “If the Book of Concord doesn't color the WELS translation, something else will.” If you must have something in your words to “color” the EHV translation it would be the belief that the Bible is God’s inspired inerrant Word as taught by what WELS folks call the Wauwatosa Theology. The Wauwatosa Theology is the view that the Scriptures should be historically and grammatically interpreted on the basis of the original Hebrew and Greek texts, with no dogmatic or ecclesiastical presuppositions. Daniel, you appear to be making the Book of Concord a dogmatic presupposition. Daniel Gorman: “If the WELS translators were to discover a passage that disagrees with the Book of Concord,” What you are suggesting would have been very disturbing to the early WELS fathers known as the Northwestern Lutherans who lead the Wisconsin Synod's break with the Prussian Union mission societies who had been providing support. Nowhere does the use of the Bible by the Book of Concord misuse or contradict the true meaning of God’s Word. Just where can one image any Bible passage that disagrees with the Book of Concord or where the Book of Concord disagrees with any Bible passage? Just for clarity, translation project is complete.   Steven Thomas Karp (Steven_karp) New member Username: Steven_karp Post Number: 21 Registered: 5-2015 Posted on Tuesday, June 19, 2018 - 7:44 pm:       I checked on Amazon, and "Good" used copies of "An American Translation"can be had in the $10 range. Is That reasonable? By the way, you might have to poke around a bit since Amazon has different editions in different places.   Pastor Rolf David Preus (Rolf) Senior Member Username: Rolf Post Number: 9779 Registered: 5-2001 Posted on Wednesday, June 20, 2018 - 12:38 am:       Thanks for the information. I'll check it out. Pastor Rolf David Preus   Daniel Gorman (Heinrich) Senior Member Username: Heinrich Post Number: 3699 Registered: 11-2004 Posted on Wednesday, June 20, 2018 - 6:05 am:       Steve Ames: "Daniel, you appear to be making the Book of Concord a dogmatic presupposition." My only presupposition is that scripture "is the only true standard by which all teachers and doctrines are to be judged." FC;SD;OF THE COMPREHENSIVE SUMMARY, FOUNDATION, RULE, AND STANDARD Steve Ames: "Just where can one image any Bible passage that disagrees with the Book of Concord or where the Book of Concord disagrees with any Bible passage?" A few years ago, I thought I had at long last found an inconsistency between scripture and the BOC. But there was no inconsistency! I had erred by relying an incorrect English translation of the BOC. I am not aware of any doctrinal conflict between the bible and the Book of Concord in their original languages. Steve Ames: "Just for clarity, translation project is complete." If the WELS translators did find an apparent inconsistency between the bible and the BOC in the course of their work, I am confident they recognized and corrected their error. The WELS translators would not publish a bible that contradicts their confession. "Since now, in the sight of God and of all Christendom [the entire Church of Christ], we wish to testify to those now living and those who shall come after us that this declaration herewith presented concerning all the controverted articles aforementioned and explained, and no other, is our faith, doctrine, and confession, in which we are also willing, by God’s grace, to appear with intrepid hearts before the judgment-seat of Jesus Christ, and give an account of it; and that we will neither privately nor publicly speak or write anything contrary to it. . ." FC,SD,XII   Pastor Rolf David Preus (Rolf) Senior Member Username: Rolf Post Number: 9780 Registered: 5-2001 Posted on Wednesday, June 20, 2018 - 10:47 am:       The Scripture alone principle does not disallow adopting a scripturally based norm of doctrine such as the Creeds and the Lutheran Confessions. The doctrinally binding authority of these confessions derives from the Scriptures alone. Inasmuch as they are already normed by the norming norm (the Holy Scriptures), they, as the normed norm serve as a sound guide in the interpretation of the Holy Scriptures. Does this make the Lutheran Confessions "a dogmatic presupposition"? No, it makes the Lutheran Confessions a dogmatic conclusion, which then becomes a guide for us Lutherans as we interpret the Bible. Mr. Gorman correctly notes, "No person is a blank slate. If the Book of Concord doesn't color the WELS translation, something else will." The problem with the Wauwatosa theologians is that with their arrogant dismissal of the theological method of centuries of Lutherans as "father's theology," it bequeathed to the Wisconsin Synod a father's theology of its own, saddling them with a sectarian view of church and ministry that has caused them no end of trouble. Rejecting the "fathers' theology" of the seventeenth century and adopting its own "fathers' theology" of the early twentieth century, the WELS finds itself in an untenable position on matters (such as the plain meaning of AC V and AC XIV) that were settled among us Lutherans for hundreds of years before anybody had heard of Wauwatosa, Wisconsin. Pastor Rolf David Preus   Steve Schmidt (Sschmidt) Intermediate Member Username: Sschmidt Post Number: 285 Registered: 3-2017 Posted on Wednesday, June 20, 2018 - 11:40 am:       I thought the WELS rejected Wauwatosa theology in 1929? I'm missing something.   Steve Schmidt (Sschmidt) Intermediate Member Username: Sschmidt Post Number: 286 Registered: 3-2017 Posted on Wednesday, June 20, 2018 - 11:53 am:       https://pastorjameskellerman.blogspot.com/2011/08/ wauwawhat-part-three.html Also, does anybody know why August Pieper was, according to the above blog, "the Darth Vader of the Wisconsin Synod?"   Pastor Rolf David Preus (Rolf) Senior Member Username: Rolf Post Number: 9782 Registered: 5-2001 Posted on Wednesday, June 20, 2018 - 12:03 pm:       No, the WELS celebrates the Wauwatosa Theology. It did take some time before it was incorporated into their official statements. While the Wauwatosans taught their new teaching on church and ministry one hundred years ago, the WELS didn't formally adopt it until 1969. For years, the WELS and the LCMS had pretty much the same practice. In fact, some said that Missouri's practice followed Wisconsin's doctrine and Wisconsin's practice followed Missouri's doctrine. The Wauwatosa take on sola Scriptura has definitely affected Wisconsin's use of the Lutheran Confessions as a norm. While formally subscribing unconditionally, in practice they do not always follow the Confessional paradigm. This becomes very apparent on church and ministry. On the other hand, Wisconsin's opposition to unionism is stronger than Missouri's, and the WELS seems to be more willing to stand up against cultural norms than is Missouri. On hermeneutical issues, the WELS stays with the historic Lutheran position on such things as rectilinear messianic prophecy, whereas Missouri has caved into the Reformed influence on this. I don't want my criticism of the Wauwatosans misunderstood. They were excellent theologians. The WELS has a high regard for the Holy Scriptures and does a good job of training their pastors. Pastor Rolf David Preus   Pastor Rolf David Preus (Rolf) Senior Member Username: Rolf Post Number: 9783 Registered: 5-2001 Posted on Wednesday, June 20, 2018 - 12:06 pm:       Also, the WELS affirmation of objective justification and its willingness to stand firm on this is commendable. While Missouri appears incapable of disciplining those who deny it, the WELS has done so to their credit. I speak specifically of a former WELS pastor who is now a member of ELDoNA, an erring sect that broke away from Missouri, rejecting Missouri's teaching on the ministry and justification. Pastor Rolf David Preus