LutherQuest Vet Bolts for EO, Sells Luther Short

Better than bubble wrap (below), but still...

Profile of Dr. Charles R. Hogg, Jr.

Username: Robb
Full Name: Dr. Charles R. Hogg, Jr.
E-mail Address: pastor_hogg@hotmail.com
Last Logged In: September 05, 2008
Registered: September 05, 2004
Total Posts: 292
Status: Intermediate Member
Denomination: Former LC-MS; now Antiochian Orthodox
Positions Held (elder, pastor, layman, teacher, etc.): Pastor, Professor
Church Website URL: http://stnickgr.com

The set is still available as of this moment. More details:

> All volumes except 26, 27, 47 & 53
> Some underlining, mostly in pencil
> Entire set, new, is $1278

I'm asking $500, you pay shipping.

Thanks!

***

GJ - Notice below, a long blog about the Virgin Mary, which includes a note about reading the articles in Lutheran Forum (the crowd that will lecture at The Surrendered Fort) by Hogg, the EO convert listed above. Also mentioned is Fenton, who denounced Lutheran docrine and joined Eastern Orthodoxy. Fenton worked with Paul McCain, MDiv, on the Missouri hymnal.

Most importantly - Weedon is considered high on the list of Confessional Lutherna bloggers. Oh my. Richard J. Neuhaus was a Confessional Lutheran up until he joined Rome with his Confessional Lutheran brethren, who joined Rome. Here is a list of fellow bloggers on yet another Confessional Lutheran blog: Rev. Wright II Alan Ludwig Pr. H. R. Rev. Rick Sawyer Rev. Jacob Sutton The Rev. BT Ball Pr. Georg Williams Brent Kuhlman Fr. Timothy D. May, S.S.P. Rev. Paul Beisel Rev. Gifford A. Grobien Rev. Rick Stuckwisch Rev. Erich Fickel Rev. Richard A. Heinz Pr. Ralph Tausz Rev. Fr. Robert W. Schaibley David Jay Webber Pastor Foy Rev. Kent A. Heimbigner, Ph.D. Rev. Robert Franck.

What Happened (Weedon Blog)

I was chatting with a friend today. He thinks I'm obsessed with the Blessed Virgin. Fancy that. Actually, I was telling him that what is striking is how often and simply the great fathers of the 16th and 17th centuries speak of the Mother of God's perpetual virginity or the closed womb birth and such from the pulpit and in their other writings. To them it was just taken for granted.

Why was it taken for granted then, but not taken for granted now?

I don't know the answer for certain, but I have a hunch about what happened. It's this: the Churches of the Augsburg Confession retained Latin. That means that they didn't bother to translate the old Latin office hymns. They wrote new hymns in German, of course, but they just kept on singing the old hymns in Latin right alongside the new ones (though the Sequences, unlike the office hymns, were subject to frequent "correcta" - always with copious Scriptural annotations). And those hymns simply shaped their theological endeavor.

In the Magdeburg Book the hymn "Creator of the Stars of Night" is listed as being sung at Vespers throughout Adventtide. It is sung in Latin, of course, and - as throughout the book - Scriptural allusions are provided in the margins. So when in the third stanza they sang of the Lord proceeding from the "closed" Mother, the margin listed the reference to Ezekiel 44:2. They sang it every night at Vespers in Magdeburg during Advent! They grew up shaped by that. Where did Gerhard learn the allusion of Mary's virginity being typified in the burning bush, in Gideon's fleece, in Aaron's rod that budded? It was all in the hymnody! The LATIN hymnody. The hymnody they didn't translate and just kept using. UNTIL.

Until rationalism and pietism swept through the Lutheran Churches, and then Latin was the first thing axed. And suddenly all the hymns that had nurtured and sustained a way of reading and thinking about the Scriptures were no longer there. Only the post-Reformation hymns that had been composed in German largely remained. And it wasn't too long after this that we see a marked change in how the Scriptures themselves were being read and understood.

As I said, this is all Weedon's suppositions - I have yet to do all the "hard data work" as dear Dr. Nagel would call it - but I truly suspect it explains a LOT of what happened. Take up your old German Gesangbuch and look for the hymns that we regard as standard from the Latin. They're not there. It's a loss I think we've still not reckoned with, and it explains why Lutherans of the 21st century simply don't know how to DEAL with what their forebears in the faith simply took as axiomatic.
posted by William Weedon at 4:52 PM

28 Comments:
Paul T. McCain said...
Maybe your friend was right?

5:42 PM
William Weedon said...
Well, I DO believe miracles still happen... ;)

6:45 PM
Anonymous said...
I went to Fenton's new church today. I looked for you on IM but you're not logged in. I ducked out before anybody talked to me and I didn't accept any of their bread. I was supposed to reject it, right?

7:52 PM
Rev. Benjamin Harju said...
Bill,

Good post. I think with the disappearance of the hymns, the sad darkness of the Reformed and general Protestantism seeped in to fill their place. Now with the Liturgy itself with all good hymns being chucked in many of our parishes, just imagine the chaos that looms ahead for us in the future. I'm afraid that the loss of the Semper Virgo and the Closed Womb delivery of Jesus will seem like small potatoes compared to what's coming our way in 50-100 years.

BTW, your new ID image is nice, but it's big. Now, maybe it's because I can only get a 26K connection at best, but it sure does take a while to download. I'm sure it's because my connection speed is so poor out here. It still looks nice, though.

8:42 PM
Rev. Benjamin Harju said...
Dear Anonymous,

The only reason you would need to refuse their bread is if you wish to refuse their love and friendship. That's the point behind their baking it by hand, blessing it, and giving it to those with whom they cannot admit to the Sacrament.

Thinking of my own parish situation, it sure would be confusing and disheartening if a new face showed up, but darted out so no one could say "Welcome" or "Hi, and you are?"

Why did you visit their parish? Did you intend to behave this way from the get-go? I wouldn't be pleased to find out one of my parishioners did something like this in one of the other churches in town.

But maybe this all sounds worse than it really is? Perhaps I just have the wrong idea here.

What is going on here?

In Christ,

Rev. Benjamin Harju, Pastor

St. John's LCMS, Hastings, IA
St. Paul LCMS, Oakland, IA

8:53 PM
Anonymous said...
The bread they were offering me was the same bread they were receiving in communion. Wouldn't accepting it be like communing at the alter of a non-Lutheran church? I didn't go with plans to refuse the bread. I didn't know they were going to do it until I read it in the ordo. As for darting out right at the end, I did plan that as my current pastor actually recommended that I don't visit at all because he thought J.F. would corner me and try to convert me on the spot. J.F. headed downstairs and I bolted for my car.

8:59 PM
William Weedon said...
Dear Jenn,

Pastor Harju is quite right about the bread - though it LOOKS like the Eucharistic bread, it is called "antidoran" - "instead of the gift" - and is offered merely as a gesture of friendship.

I don't think Fr. John would have tried to convert you on the spot, though he would certainly love to have you as an Orthodox Christian because of his conviction that Orthodoxy is the one true Church.

What did you think of the liturgy? It's remarkably similar, I suspect, to Zion's liturgy. The Divine Service of the Lutheran Church and the Liturgy of the Gregorian Rite of the Western Orthodox have a true kinship. And certainly Fr. John is a powerful preacher of the Gospel. Still where we differ, we differ, and no similarity in liturgy can gloss over the difference.

9:32 PM
William Weedon said...
Pr. Harju,

You may of course be correct, but we also see in LSB the Lutheran faith expressed beautifully in numerous new hymns written in modern English. That gives reason to hope as well. Time will tell. It's a battle of passing on vs. erosion.

9:33 PM
Anonymous said...
Doh! It's not the same bread? *facepalm* Oh well. At least now I know.

Yes, it's remarkably similar in liturgy. It felt a little informal but I think that's because I'm used to organ music and a grand-looking building with great acoustics. The hynms were all about martyrs and Mary. It seemed somewhat lacking in gospel by comparison. Also, there was unfamiliar terms used here and there so I didn't feel as though I could give any Amens. I merely observed for the most part.

9:47 PM
Omar said...
Interesting,

The disuse of Latin - in hymns or otherwise - must be why a Roman Catholic friend of mine(who's a convert from the Baptists) thought it strange that when I was examing Lutheranism I started delving into Latin. The two seemed mutually exclusive to him and Lutheranism had, in his mind, become synonymous with hostility toward Latin... sigh
If the early Lutherans wrote new hymns in the vernbacular without translating the old Latin hymns, they must have had a high regard for teaching Latin.

very, very interesting


Fr.Weedon,

How would the rise of Rationalism and Pietism in Lutheransim cause Latin to be regarded as less favorable? Was it Latin itself or more importantly theological points evident in these writings that were a thorn in the side of these streams?

Pax

10:25 PM
William Weedon said...
Omar,

The rationalists and pietists both disliked the Latin itself. They thought of it as being stuck to far into the Romanism that Lutheranism ought to have extracted itself from. The Lutherans thought entirely differently: the Latin was just the language that they'd grow up with and they treasured it and used it regularly.

10:30 PM
William Weedon said...
TOO far. Grr!

10:34 PM
The Unknown Lutheran said...
Pastor Weedon:

I too am accused of having a Marian obsession. The phrase "Icon of the Church" is stuck in my mind.
One can have a healthy obsession with the Blessed Virgin though, and I am sure you have such a healthy interest as all I have read from you or heard from you on IE never goes against the fact that Christ is absolutely central.

Anonymous:
You have nothing to fear from Fr. Fenton. Talk to him if you get the chance. He has no supernatural powers to convert high church confessional Lutherans :)
You hit the nail on the head by writing about the lack of gospel.
He needs to hear this. If you get the chance, tell him. The typical old school cn type Lutheran crowd would call me a hyper-euro and sacerdotalist and despite my absolute respect for the OHM, the Gospel, the Truth, spoken by a layperson is just as powerful as what is spoken by the ordained. If you know the Truth, speak it! Fr. Fenton or not.

I have a dream in which Fr. Fenton comes home to Wittenberg, where he belongs, where we need him as well.

11:17 PM
Fraser said...
Dear William,

Have you have read Charles R Hogg Jr's articles on this theme in Lutherna (sic) Forum?

Fraser

Surrendering the Fort - 2009 Festival of Apostasy

Mass bells can be ordered at the seminary bookstore. Wink.


No, the post below is not from The Onion, but from the Concordia, Ft. Wayne, website.


January 20 - 23, 2009 (Don't fail to miss this one.)

Concordia Theological Seminary (CTS) in Fort Wayne, Indiana is once again hosting its annual Symposia, 20-23 January 2009. Held every year on the Fort Wayne campus, the four-day event is highlighted by presentations on Exegetical Theology and the Lutheran Confessions.

The theme for the 24th annual symposium on Exegetical Theology is "The Coherence of the Sacred Scriptures"

The theme for the 32nd annual symposium on The Lutheran Confessions is "A Last Look at Missouri’s Critical Time: The 1950s to 1970s"

Scheduled speakers include:


The Reverend Richard Koenig
ELCA Pastor emeritus Former Editor, Lutheran Forum
Topic: "Memoirs of an Editor" (Lutheran Forum is the magazine of record for ELCA and LCMS pastors longing to join Rome, as several editors have done already - Neuhaus and Klein.)

Dr. R. Reed Lessing
Professor of Exegetical Theology, Concordia Seminary, St. Louis, Missouri
Topic: "The Big Bang and the Book of Amos"

The Reverend Paul Robert Sauer
Pastor, Our Savior Lutheran Church, The Bronx, New York; Associate Editor, Lutheran Forum
Topic: "Out of Step or Before His Times: Berthold von Schenk"
(Quote from Sauer: "There are faithful children of God in all church bodies—even in Roman Catholicism!" I have the von Stench book, a key to the Romanizing trends in the Lutheran Forum bunch. Ft. Wayne's David Scaer loved the book. Ugh.)

Dr. David R. Schmitt
Professor of Homiletics Concordia Seminary, St. Louis, Missouri
Topic: "Goal, Malady, Means as Law-Gospel Ersatz in the Theology of Richard R. Caemmerer"

Dr. Philip J. Secker
Director, The Arthur Carl Piepkorn Center for Evangelical Catholicity
Topic: ""A Pilgrimage not Taken: Arthur Carl Piepkorn"

Dr. Christopher R. Seitz
Research Professor of Biblical Interpretation, Wycliffe College, University of Toronto, Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Topic: "Has Diversity in the Scriptures Been Overemphasized? Listening to the Coherent Witness of the ‘Goodly Fellowship of Prophets’" (Wycliffe College - Lutheran? No.)

Dr. Richard J. Shuta
Professor of Theology, Concordia University, Ann Arbor, Michigan
Topic: "Dr. Walter A. Maier as Evangelical Preacher" (Amazing - a nod to conservatives, red meat for the base, as they say in politics.)

Dr. Robert L. Wilken
University of Virginia (Ooo. No denomination listed. Is it because Wilken left the LCMS for ELCA and then joined the Church of Rome under the tutelage of Father Richard J. Neuhaus? One Neuhaus book is dedicated to Wilken "by the Sea of Galilee.")
Topic: "A Pilgrim from Wittenberg to Constantinople: Jaroslav Pelikan"
(Sports fans - this is a two-fer: a Roman Catholic, an apostate from the LCMS, promoting a Missouri Synod theologian who joined ELCA and converted to Eastern Orthodoxy.)

***

GJ - In case you wonder, the parenthetical remarks are mine. You can check out the original website from the link I graciously provided.

This conference is a double hand-spring and triple sommersault with a half-gainer for joining Rome and Eastern Orthodoxy, with ELCA as the farm team for Holy Mother Rome and Holy Mother Constantinople (Neuhaus, Wilken, Pelikan). Note too that McCain's pal, Fenton, who helped put together the Lutheran Service Book, joined Eastern Orthodoxy shortly afterwards.

Would the last pastor to leave Concordia, Ft. Wayne please blow out the candles at Kramer Chapel? They are a fire hazard in an unoccupied building.

And to think, Herman Otten's brother could barely force himself to say hello when I last saw him in Ft. Wayne. Was I sinuflecting to Rome, like his fellow alumni? No, I was writing against that very thing.

This conference was once hailed as the Other LCMS Convention, where the conservatives got together once a year. Mass bells are breaking up that old gang of mine.

I am trying to joke, but I have never seen anything so disgusting in my life. The alumni should bring torches and pitchforks, but they will not. When Neuhaus explained how he became the Roman Catholic apostate he always was, half the audience (alumni of The Fort) nodded in agreement.

---

A. Nony Mouse has left a new comment on your post "Surrendering the Fort - 2009 Festival of Apostasy":

All of this sounds interesting, but who can believe you anymore? You've published so many lies and half-truths, some of which you up-chuck over and over and over again, who will believe you? You may think you have a lot of followers, but I only see a certain few commenting. Those who check in daily are simply wanting to see what outrageous thing you're writing next.

***

GJ - Now, Mouse, if you weren't so lazy you would Google the men and read the websites and books for yourself. How can you believe what Concordia, Ft. Wayne has posted, bragging about its Return to Rome Symposia? Half of the talks would have made Preus and Marquart explode in rage. Mouse, you log in because you love to jabber in deep cover, but I know who you are. The symposia of the past used to give ELCA fits. Now they make most of us ashamed. Some, like you, Mouse, are shameless.

The statistics are posted from Feedjit. I see dots all over the globe. If Ichabod were false, you would not be in a state of rage each day, Mouse. But you feel guilty for what you have done.

The name-calling does not affect me, except to encourage more posts. I have heard all the names before. That is how WELS responds to its cover-ups being uncovered.

Factoid for the Blogizens

Katrina Storm Clouds

For a long time the link to the Kuske report on Michigan Lutheran Seminary (WELS) has been the most viewed. Overnight the link about one more LCMS pastor going Eastern Orthodox matched it, according to Google Analytics.

Fenton is proud, I am sure. Here is his statement, before he was assumed into Eastern Orthodoxy, where he had already traveled for years, as he indicated:

Today I resigned as the Pastor of Zion Evangelical-Lutheran Church of Detroit. What follows is the "Statement of Resignation" that I read to the members who attended the semi-annual meeting of the Voters of Zion Church. The Reverend David Stechholz, President & Bishop of the English District, presided at the meeting as well as the Holy Mass that preceded the meeting.

When I became Pastor of Zion Church more than 11 years ago, my intention was to remain at Zion until death or retirement. That is still my heartfelt and sincere desire. However, with much grief and heartache, I have concluded that I must tender my resignation as the Fifth Pastor of Zion Evangelical-Lutheran Church of Detroit.

I tender my resignation because I no longer confess the teachings of the Lutheran Church as these are understood by those who have pledged themselves to the Book of Concord. Zion wants to be a Lutheran congregation. The members of Zion rightly expect their Pastor to be Lutheran—a man who holds unreservedly to the Book of Concord as a true and correct interpretation and understanding of the Holy Scriptures. I can no longer do so.

When a man pledges himself to a confession, he doesn’t get to pick and choose which parts he’ll abide by and which parts he’ll ignore or go against. Most of the Book of Concord is true and correct, and for that God is to be praised. However, I am convinced that the Book of Concord contains defective or deficient doctrines not in accord with the faith of the apostles. In simple terms, these deficiencies include the acceptance of an amended Nicene Creed, the notion that Jesus died to appease His Father’s wrath, a man-centered understanding of the church, the denial of prayers to the saints, and the idea that the liturgy is a man-made product. In addition, there are correct Scriptural teachings in the Book of Concord that are denied in practice by nearly all Lutherans today. These include the teachings that the saints do intercede for us, the affirmation of the perpetual virginity of Mary, the proper respect due the elements in the Lord’s Supper, and the scriptural mandate that only ordained men should celebrate Mass and give the Sacraments. Because of these deficiencies and errors, I can no longer confess and teach from the Book of Concord. Therefore, I cannot be the pastor of any Lutheran congregation.

Now I need to be clear about one thing: I am not resigning because of something someone at Zion has said or done. No one has asked for my resignation. No one has pressured or threatened me to make this decision. On the contrary, you have all been patient and kind with me—even as you saw me struggle. Therefore, I shall always genuinely appreciate and be eternally grateful for the love and the generosity that you have showered upon me and my family during my tenure as your Pastor. I am also deeply grateful for the support you have given me since I first announced my struggle more than 3 years ago. Because of this, I will always have a place in my heart for the people of Zion. This is the parish, and you are the people, I will always love.

I also sincerely appreciate the respect you have shown me as your Pastor. Your respect was evident when I first visited Zion, and that was one of the key things that drew me to you. I also respect you, and so I respect your desire to remain Lutheran. Yet for that reason, I must depart. As I do so, I heartily apologize to any I have hurt, offended, or caused to stumble in the faith during my 11 year tenure as the Pastor of Zion. By your prayers and the mercy of God, may I be forgiven.

As many of you know, the catalyst for this decision was the heart-rending realization that The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod is an heterodox communion fellowship, and that it has no desire to be otherwise. The Scriptures clearly prohibit Christians from being in communion with those who deliberately, persistently and willfully deny and depart from the apostolic tradition enshrined in the Scriptures. The fact that many of you, over the years, have come to Zion seeking shelter from the false worship and false teachings in LCMS churches is evidence enough that we live in a false communion. And the fact that what is taught and practiced now in LCMS churches would be unrecognizable and, in fact, abhorred by those who composed the Book of Concord, and by the founders of this parish, is also evidence enough.

Please know, however, that the troubles in the LCMS are not the reason for my resignation. If I was leaving because the Missouri Synod is in trouble, I would be leaving for all the wrong reasons; I would be running when I should be protecting you; and I would be showing you great disrespect.

I tender my resignation because, over time, I have come to see and believe that the faith believed, taught, confessed and lived in the Orthodox Church is the faith of the apostles. Therefore, I sincerely believe that the Orthodox Church is the true visible Church of Christ on earth. For this reason, my family and I will seek to be received into communion in the Orthodox Church.

Your new bishop recently asked me what core issue motivated me to embrace the Orthodox Faith. It is this: The Liturgy never changes. I don’t mean that chants or prayers or feasts are not added or subtracted gradually over time. What I mean is that no priest or bishop or congregation can decide to cut the Eucharistic Prayer or go with a new style of worship or change things to suit his convictions or the times. Why? Because the liturgy is not something smart men have created and so can modify. The liturgy is from the Holy Spirit in the same way that the Scriptures are from the Holy Spirit. In the liturgy, the Holy Spirit rightly instructs us in Holy Scripture and His presence transforms us and the gifts set forth in the Holy Eucharist. So the liturgy is the way the Faith is given, confessed, prayed and proclaimed. As the liturgy goes, so goes the Faith together with your certainty and surety.

Bad bishops and aberrant priests have and will always surface in the true Church. From time to time, they introduce novel and heretical teachings. But if the liturgy doesn’t change, then their faith-destroying words will not take hold and will eventually fade away. The bottom line, then, is that the unchanging liturgy keeps us on the straight and narrow. It keeps us both on the way to the Kingdom, and in the Way which is Our Lord Jesus Christ. And the Kingdom of heaven is the goal, and the Lord Jesus is our Life.

I sincerely believe that what I am doing is good and right not just for me and my family. I am convinced that it is good and right for each one of you. I sincerely believe that the Faith you’ve been taught here in this place for 125 years is lived and believed in its fullness in the Orthodox Church. Therefore, I deeply long for each of you to join me precisely because I have been your spiritual father. You have trusted by ministry, teaching and counsel these past 11 years, and I wish you would trust me in this as well. Some have indicated that they will do just that. I am moved by their confidence, and will do all I can not to betray their trust. But a good spiritual father should never force or manipulate any of his children to believe as he does. In addition, my own struggles have taught me to acknowledge and respect that each person must reach this decision on his own, in his own time.

Because of my deep love and respect for you, I pledge to you this day that I have not and shall not proselytize or recruit away those who desire to remain members of Zion. I will always be pleased to answer any questions you may have, and I will continue to speak the truth in love. But I will never urge you to act against your conscience because that is not our Father’s way, and that is not the way of His Church.

Already I have heard that some people are telling lies about Zion and what I am doing today. In the coming weeks and months, some here and elsewhere will say that I’ve turned against the true Faith, that I’ve betrayed my vows to the Confessions and to you, and that I have been deliberately deceitful. Some will say that the pledge I just made about not recruiting members is a lie. Some will say that some or all of my tenure at Zion has been a lie. And some will say that Zion has never been very Lutheran and needs to change how she’s worshipped and what she’s been taught during the last 67 years.

If you permit me, let me tell you that when you hear these things: do not be afraid, do not be discouraged, do not become bitter or angry, and do not fall into sin. Instead, hold fast to what is true and good and right. And above all, hold on steadfastly to the mercy of God. He will never leave you nor forsake you. He is the loving Father, and so He will always embrace those who come to Him.

I also urge you not to believe those who would question the Gospel and sacraments you have received from me. I have given what I have received. And despite my many failings and the failings of the Synod, the Gospel you have received here in this place is the wondrous, loving, merciful work of the Holy Spirit.

I am grateful for every blessing of the Holy Spirit that I received in the Lutheran Church—most especially for the gift of Holy Baptism, for a rigorous catechesis in many basic doctrines, for the Holy Eucharist that has nourished my faith, and for the grace to serve three parishes. I am also grateful for your prayers; for your words of admonishment, rebuke and encouragement; and for your friendship—which I do not intend to abandon. I am undeserving of every kindness that you have shown me. And although it may be more challenging for various reasons, I hope we continue to see each other in the years ahead.

Finally, although I am undeserving, I ask for your prayers—for me, for my family, for Zion, for your District President, for whoever succeeds me, and for the faithful in The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod. Pray that our Lord have mercy. And pray that, despite our weaknesses and failings, we may together be restored to full communion with our Father through His Son Jesus Christ, in the Holy Spirit.



(Rev Fr) John W Fenton, M.Div., S.T.M.
The Fifth Sunday after Michaelmass
29 October 2006

Benjamin Kjendal, LCMS, Semi-Popes

The congregation's website has a note about the pastor leaving the parish. Perhaps the letter has been edited. LutherQuest [sic] (hardly a reliable source for anything) reports that he has joined Eastern Orthodoxy, only two years after graduating from Concordia Seminary, Ft. Wayne. Joining the Church of Rome is called poping, so this would be semi-poping.

So far a Google search has not added any additional information. Confirming information from the Fentonistas is welcome.

I was just thinking of when this started. The first clue was over 20 years ago, when graduates of Ft. Wayne were showing an unhealthy interest in Eastern Orthodoxy. I have nothing against incense, fancy robes, and interest in other confessions. However, the Ft. Wayne crowd has been exhibiting an unhealthy coveting of anything from Eastern Orthodoxy.

I noticed that Kjendal's ordination featured a lush abundance of pricey robes. The website features Eastern Orthodox icon art and that gushy spirituality associated with fresh converts.

Ft. Wayne's faculty has long been turning out EO-wannabees. The ELDONA sect is proof of that. The Fort, as its delusional graduates call it, has been turning out men who are sinuflecting toward Rome, one step at a time. Given the assupmptions of Eastern Orthodoxy, that is the next logical step to take. Wives are welcome, as long as the Roman priest does not marry again. Eastern Orthodox priests can marry, but not after ordination. If they marry, they cannot be bishops, except in ELDONA.

Something more is at work than the dishonest doctrine of the Ft. Wayne faculty. The Church Growth Movement and Eastern Orthodoxy have one attribute in common: both are non-confessional. For many decades the LCMS has been mincing away from the Book of Concord and a serious translation of the Bible. The LCMS, WELS, and the Little Sect on the Prairie could have adopted the New KJV for their publication work, with some explanations about the anti-sacramental changes in a few passages. Instead, they adopted the NIV, an atrocious and ever-changing feminist translation.

The so-called conservative synods have worked closely with ELCA (the LCA/ALC before 1987) and emulated apostasy in every way possible, lying about it to those who inquire. "Who told you?" - followed by abusing the original messenger.

The genius of EO and CGM their method, their trick of being non-confessional. They cannot be called anti-confessional. No, believe whatever you want. The key to success is the external method, not the external Word. ELDONA, a nano-synod, began with opposing views of justification. Did that matter? Not as long as the robes matched.

A Ft. Wayne graduate, disgusted with Cousin Brunhilda singing "Amazing Grace" in a prom gown, might prefer instead to chant in his own gown. As long as he does not look too carefully at the flaws in Eastern Orthodoxy doctrine, he is fine.

Let us applaud the Fentonistas for their honesty. Those who favor Eastern Orthodoxy and Rome should leave and honestly state their reasons. Likewise, those who favor Baptist-Pentecostal theology should announce their beliefs and head for the exit. However, both sides of non-confessionalism will stay and contend for the money and members of the Lutheran Church.

***

Carl Vehse has left a new comment on your post "Benjamin Kjendal, LCMS, Semi-Popes":

Had these classmates already dipped their toes into the Bosphorus (or Tiber) before they came to the sem, or was there some subverting influence present at the sem that enticed them to fall from their Lutheran confession?

And what kind of vetting goes on at the sems? Do these guys give off clues that are just ignored or do they just out of the blue pop it on their professors, classmates, congregations, DPs, circuit counselors, etc.?

***

GJ - Ho ho! The seminary is not vetting candidates to keep them away from Eastern Orthodoxy. They are preparing their own graduates to semi-pope soon after graduation. The Ft. Wayne faculty is devious and the students are dishonest. I suppose this is a way to get an education as cheaply as possible before semi-poping.

One excuse at The Fort is just too clever: "It's just a matter of polity." Where did I hear that before? I remember. The Church Growth drones kept saying, "Our methods are doctrinally neutral. They work everywhere." Their methods are so neutral that the stars of Church Growth in WELS have become Evangelicals and Pentecostals.

Deming: From Doughnuts to Theology

Larry Olson Caught Sneaking into Fuller Seminary

W. Edwards Deming pioneered the concept of quality parts, something he discovered while working on the US Census. He was ignored in the US, so the Japanese car-makers adopted his concept. The idea was simple - If the parts are high quality, the finished product will work well. Before that the auto makers had the parts manufacturers compete for price, so quality suffered. When they made the vendors compete for quality, the final product ran well and lasted much longer.

Detroit finally caught on. People wanted cars that worked. Now a car can easily reach 100,000 miles without significant problems.

Deming Doughnuts
My father applied the concept in his bakery. He used the best flour and paid extra for its shipping from California. The aroma from the 100-pound bags was intoxicating. He used the best cocoa to make chocolate icing. He insisted on cane sugar rather than beet sugar. Both sugars are identical in chemistry, but beet sugar has an odd smell and does not make icing as well as cane sugar does. He used top quality coconut, huge pecans and walnuts, the best peanuts. The shortening was cleaned often and recycled when old. (No, not recycled in the bakery, but by someone who picked it up and sold it to a chemical company.)

I have never had doughnuts like the ones we made in downtown Moline. They were legendary in the Quad-City area.

Deming and Theology
The Deming theory applies to theology. If a student of religion starts with junk-parts, the final result will be junk. The opposite is what Walther quoted: "The nearer to Luther, the better the theologian."

The Protestants and Catholics during the Reformation started with Luther. For Catholic theologians, he was Public Enemy Number One. For Protestants, he was the gold standard. John Bunyan, who wrote Pilgrim's Progress, the most read book in the English language (after the Bible), Luther was his favorite. He said Luther's Galatians commentary was his most read book, after the Bible.

How many Lutheran MDiv students have read the Galatians commentary? How many faculty have? Add them together and the total for the whole Synodical Conference is probably close to zero.

Among the febrile dissenters in the LCMS and ELS, how many are Luther-centric? I read the unshocking claim that Fenton, who repudiates Lutheran doctrine, was a bigwig in creating the newest McCain product, the Lutheran Service Book. Fenton has joined Eastern Orthodoxy. For many in the LCMS, the cure for their ailment is either the Church of Rome or Eastern Orthodoxy. What does that say about the state of seminary education?

No one can imagine graduates of the Mequon Sausage Factory joining Rome. Why give up total infallibility for Rome's weaker version? Mequon graduates are quite enchanted by the junk-theologians of Fuller Seminary. Their former president recommended the Pentecostal Baptist C. Peter Wagner in their official WELS magazine. One of their other Fuller alums, Reuel Schulz, praised Wagner into heaven in his TELL article. Both men made it clear that Lutherans needed to study the great theologian, C. Peter Wagner.

I will add some Wagner quotes below. Here are some non-Lutheran objections.

Wagner believes he is a faith healer. He claimed in one book that a demon lived in an article in his house. Some of his statements would make anyone question his sanity. One of his books was originally called Look Out! The Pentecostals Are Coming!

The time spent studying the crackpots of Fuller Seminary is lost to the study of classical theologians. I would much rather read the serious theologians of any age than the frauds of Pasadena and Willow Creek.

Any Protestant student of theology is going to invest his time wisely with Luther because the Reformer is the greatest and most lucid expositor of the Bible. The editors of the Book of Concord should be next on the list - for Lutherans especially, but also for Protestants in general.

Wagner Was Right About One Thing
"I don't think there's anything intrinsically wrong with the church-growth principles we've developed, or the evangelistic techniques we're using. Yet somehow they don't seem to work."
C. Peter Wagner Ken Sidey, "Church Growth Fine Tunes Its Formulas," Christianity Today, June 24, 1991, p. 47. [Psst - Don't tell WELS or Missouri, or Paul Tiefel and David Koenig.]

"In the words of C. Peter Wagner, Professor of Missions at the Fuller School of World Missions, Jesus at Bangkok was the 'prototype of an ideal social attitude,' the 'man for others' whose resurrection and lordship meant no more than that others should be inspired by His example."
Ernst H. Wendland, "Missiology--and the Two Billion," Wisconsin Lutheran Quarterly, Wisconsin Lutheran Quarterly, January, 1974 71, p. 11f.

"The preacher, in fact, was a fascinating combination of eloquent and illiterate (by his own testimony). In the services I saw fervent singing, joyous clapping of hands, dancing in the Spirit, speaking in tongues, testimonies, prophecies, preaching of the Word, and as a climax the handling of deadly poisonous snakes and drinking of strychnine. I discussed this with several members of the congregation. When I asked why they handled snakes they replied, simply, 'Because Jesus told us to do it as a sign.' Another sign of the kingdom." [Footnote - See C. Peter Wagner, What Are We Missing?, formerly Look Out, The Pentecostals Are Coming, Carol Stream: Creation House, 1973, 1978.]
C. Peter Wagner, Church Growth and the Whole Gospel, New York: Harper and Row, 1981, p. 23.

"Church growth is that science which investigates the planting, multiplication, function and health of Christian churches as they relate specifically to the effective implementation of God's-commission to 'make disciples of all nations' (Matt. 28:19-20 RSV). Church growth strives to combine the eternal theological principles of God's Word concerning the expansion of the church with the best insights of contemporary social and behavioral sciences, employing as its initial frame of reference, the foundational work done by Donald McGavran." [Constitution, Academy for American Church Growth]
C. Peter Wagner, Church Growth and the Whole Gospel, New York: Harper and Row, 1981, p. 75.

"Yet this writer is confident we won't go astray in adopting a 'spoiling the Egyptians' approach to the various Church Growth Movement sociological principles and the research that produced them."
David J. Valleskey, "The Church Growth Movement: An Evaluation," Wisconsin Lutheran Quarterly, Spring, 1991 88, p. 116. Exodus 12:36.

Bob: "..I'd like to share with you a book I came across the other day. It's interesting, easy to read, and may be the answer to our problem..." "Its title is Your Church Can Grow, and it's filled with all sorts of practical hints that could help us turn things around here." Author: "Bob didn't realize it at the time, but in his browsing he had stumbled upon one of many similar books written from the perspective of the church growth movement, books with such titles as How to Grow a Church, Ten Steps for Church Growth, Church Growth: Strategies that Work, and Leading Your Church to Growth."
Prof. David Valleskey, "The Church Growth Movement, Just Gathering People or Building the Church?" The Northwestern Lutheran, May 5, 1991, p. 184.

"The term 'spiritual breathing' originated with Dr. William Bright in his booklet, 'Have You Made the Wonderful Discovery of the Spirit-filled Life?'"
David Valleskey, Forest Bivens, New Life in Christ, September, 1981 p. 1.

"For several years I've been a Pete Wagner fan. Although I don't see eye to eye with him on many important theological points (he approves of faith healing and speaking in tongues as long as it promotes church growth and he comes from a Billy Graham decision for conversion doctrinal background), he is the most eloquent spokesman of the Church Growth Movement. A prolific author on mission/evangelism/church growth subjects, Wagner is also an excellent teacher and a crystal clear writer."
Reuel J. Schulz, The Evangelism Life Line (WELS) Winter, 1980,

"Please stop exaggerating the amount of study that I have done at Fuller. After four years of study at Wisconsin Lutheran Seminary, which involved sixty-two different courses and a year of vicarage, I graduated in 1983. From 1987 to 1989 I took four courses where I was in a classroom with a Fuller instructor. That is the extent of my Fuller coursework...In addition, I have taken two courses at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School and one at the University of Wisconsin--Madison. Because of Fuller's liberal (would you expect anything else?) policy on transfer of credit, and because of two independent studies I undertook, I could complete the degree by simply writing a dissertation."
Lawrence Otto Olson, D. Min., Fuller Seminary, "A Response to Gregory L. Jackson, Ph.D.," Christian News, 3-28-94, p. 23

"You may reply that by 'Fuller-trained' you mean anyone who has attended a worshop presented by the Charles E. Fuller Institute of Evangelism and Church Growth, an agency which is independent of the Seminary. If that is the case, your attribution of 'Fuller-trained' is still simply not true. It would surprise me if even half of the two dozen people on your 'WELS/ELS Who's Who' list have attended a Fuller workshop; I personally know of only five who have."
Lawrence Otto Olson, D. Min., Fuller Seminary, "A Response to Gregory L. Jackson, Ph.D.," Christian News, 3-28-94, p. 23.

Larry Meets His Holiness, Face-to-Face
"Donald C. McGavran died at home home in Altadena, California, on July 10, 1990. He was 92 years old. Dr. McGavran is widely recognized as the founder of the church growth movement, a movement which has sought to put the social sciences at the service of theology in order to foster the growth of the church. In August of 1989 I borrowed a bicycle and pedaled several miles uphill up from Pasadena to Altadena. I found Dr. McGavran in his front yard with a hose in hand, watering flowers."
Lawrence Otto Olson, D. Min., Fuller Seminary, "See How It Grows: Perspectives on Growth and the Church," EVANGELISM, February, 1991, Professor, Martin Luther College (WELS), p. 1.

Larry Loyal to Lutheran Education?
"The church growth movement has made inroads into nearly every denomination in America. Once considered only the turf of conservative evangelicals, you will now find church growth practioners in the United Methodist Church, in the Presbyterian Church in the USA, and among the Episcopalians. The LCMS has more pastors enrolled in the Doctor of Ministry program at Fuller Theological Seminary, the seedbed of the movement, than are enrolled in the graduate programs at their Fort Wayne and St. Louis seminaries combined, and most of them include church growth as part of their studies."
Lawrence Otto Olson, D. Min., Fuller Seminary, "See How It Grows: Perspectives on Growth and the Church," EVANGELISM, February, 1991, Parish Consultant for the WELS Board of Parish Services and his district's Coordinator of Evangelism, p. 1.

Another Gusher for Church Growth
"In the autumn of 1985 and the winter of 1985-1986, a truly momentous step was taken by the five Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod (WELS) congregations in the metropolitan area of Columbus, Ohio. The five pastors and lay representatives of those churches organized and incorporated Lutheran Parish Resources, Inc., the first Church Growth institute in the WELS."
David G. Peters, "Lutheran Parish Resources: Pilot Program in Church Growth,"
Mequon: Wisconsin Lutheran Seminary, April 27, 1987, p. 1.

Dixie Byzantine

Lutherans - the Mother Ship Beckons

I Googled two names together and found another Lutheran-to-Eastern-Orthodox blog, mentioning Fenton (former LCMS pastor).

This Dixie Byzantine blog brings up common themes for Lutherans who join Eastern Orthodoxy. I find this trend hauntingly similar to the one leading so many to Fuller Seminary and Willow Creek.

The last few Lutherans may need to build an ark to survive the tidal wave of Romanism and Eastern Orthodoxy.

I Googled some more and found a blog by Rev. Stuckwisch, who previously published through His Grace, Archbishop Heiser, ELDONA. Stuckwisch listed 40 pastors who influenced him. I am sure Kurt Marquart would be aghast to be on the list with Fenton and Gehlbach. Robert Preus? He died warning his colleagues about their fascination with all things Roman and Eastern Orthodox. Many of the others make sense. They are the leaders slouching toward Constantinople.

The recent issue of Christian News mentions student papers appearing at Concordia Seminary, Ft. Wayne. Jack Cascione is the source, so the information is seriously compromised. If the quotations are correct, future LCMS pastors are stating that a bishop validates the true Church. Cascione is on the opposite end of error, claiming that the Voter's Assembly validates the call, even the Sacraments: extra ecclesiam voterorum nulla salus.

Slouching Toward Constantinople: Turn East!

Father Rutowicz no longer links to the Confessional Lutheran Marian monastery, cited earlier on Ichabod. The link does not work.

The Augustana Ministerium, not to be confused with the Augustana Ministerium:

“The Challenge of Eastern Orthodoxy”

and

“Sanctification and Modes of Communication”

Augustana Ministerium Second Annual Theological Conference

August 30-31, 2007

“Eastern Orthodoxy and Lutheranism on Original Sin,” by Rev. John Rutowicz, Part 1 Part 2

“Eastern Orthodoxy and Lutheranism on Justification,” by Rev. David Juhl, Part 1 Part 2

“Eastern Orthodoxy and Lutheranism on Sanctification/Theosis,” by Rev. Gary Gehlbach, Part 1 Part 2

“Sanctification: What Is It? What Causes It? What Are its Consequences?” by Rev. Dr. Steven Hein

“Modes of Communication in the Ministry of the Gospel,” by Rev. Robert Schaibley

GJ - An Eastern Orthodoxy advocate is not amused.
***

GJ - This reminds me of the Panel Discussion on the Church Growth Movement, Mequon Sasusage Factory, 1987, led by such Fuller luminaries as Paul Kelm, Lawrence Otto Olson, David Valleskey, etc. etc. Paul Y. Cho received fulsome praise and adoration. Criticism of Church Growth was received with smirks.

Note below from Cyberstones:

Re: Infant Communion - weedon
I don't think many of us are actually advocating for the immediate move to infant communion - we know and love our parishes and our people, and we know what such advocacy would do to our churches. But we are advocating for the freedom to discuss this and explore the matter - a matter which many of us think the Reformation fathers did not put on the front burner, and therefore did not do justice to. One cannot but be struck in the discussion between Andreae and Jeremias II how Andreae builds his entire case on a reading of 1 Cor. that Luther disallows; or how Andreae can say that we do not NEED to commune the baptized infants because they spiritually eat of Christ by faith, never even taking note that it was exactly this "spiritually eating of Christ by faith" which according to the Formula is the very grounds for a beneficial oral eating. These are matters which the CTCR in its report simply did not deal with, and they need to be looked at. Not in the heat of someone pressing the Church to change on this over night, but in the calm and reasoned and prayerful discussion of the Scriptures by which the Holy Spirit leads the Church to an ever deeper appropriation of the faith once delivered to the saints.
Mar 30, 2007 13:32:44 Re: Infant Communion - Gary Gehlbach
Fr. Weedon, thank you for your well-reasoned comments. You said it much better than I could.

GVG
Mar 30, 2007 17:53:42 Re: Infant Communion - weedon
Fr. Gehlbach,

What I presented was nothing but a condensation of the arguments you have assembled and helpfully presented for all to read. For that the Church owes you a debt of gratitude indeed.

Mar 30, 2007 07:24:48 Re: Infant Communion - Gary Gehlbach
Bill, your analysis is spot on. In the CTCR response to Circuits 18 & 19, it asserts that advocates of infant communion are making the two sacrament equivocal to each other. Yet, that is exactly what it does in its own response. The CTCR dismisses 2000 years of Church history as being irrelevant, yet asserts the importance of the past 150 years of the LCMS. It plays word games by asserting that a person can be "worthy" yet receive the sacrament "unworthily."

For more information on infant communion and links to several LCMS documents, I would refer folks to my website. It has references and links to all sorts of papers on infant communion.

GVG
Mar 30, 2007 08:18:21 Re: Infant Communion - Rev.PTM
Gary, I know that you personally are really "into" the whole infant communion thing. If so, I urge you to take your views very public and post them on your blog site along with all supporting documentation for your position and then's let's have an open debate over it. Subject your position to that scrutiny.

You are going to have a tough row to hoe though trying to reinterpret the Confessions and Scriptures and appealing to a couple of pastor's papers isn't going to cut the old mustard.

Mar 30, 2007 10:11:34 Re: Infant Communion - Gary Gehlbach
I should take it public? Apparently, my website isn't public, although it has been one of the top search results under Google and only recently overtaken by wikipedia and paedocommunion.com. I lost my top listing when we changed ISPs last year.

Several pastors' papers may not "cut the mustard" in your opinion. But the opponents' arguments are weak and don't cut the muster with Scripture and the Confessions.

The topic of infant communion is an open question. Luther and the Reformers never condemned the Eastern Churches on this topic. (Oh, right that is an argument from silence; but it is still a valid point.) Oh, yes, I'm "into" discussing infant communion. Unlike others who simply wish to pontificate their opinions and bully others into submission.

Paul, believe it or not, I want to discuss the issue (my website lists articles both pro and con) and have been discussing it for years. And besides, the real issue behind the infant communion discussion is whether or not infants have faith or if they must have adult faith to be worthy. All the arguments against infant communion (even the CTCR's) indicate that there are two types of faith -- adult faith and infant faith. I find this most offensive and contrary to the Scripture and the Confessions.

You ask in another place whether I commune infants. No, it is not in the western tradition I inherited. But as with all traditions, it must continually tested by Scripture and the Lutheran Confessions.

GJ - Click here for Pastor Gehlbach's Infant Communion Mega-site.

***

GJ - The recently resussitated Augustana Ministerium seems to be the farm team for ELDONA. Both are intent on imitating the Eastern Orthodox as much as possible. One Ft. Wayne student dismissed concerns about crypto-Romanism as "just a matter of polity." Likewise, Church Growth is not doctrine but "just a few useful ideas," in the words of Church Growth Enthusiast David Valleskey.

In fact, both trends are Enthusiasm, one hiding in a cloud of incense, the other behind the latest marketing surveys.

Weird Blog

I ran into Lutheran Enignma because I was searching a source for Berg's infant communion material. Gary Gehlbach is the author of this blog:

Theosis: Achieving Your Potential in Christ (1)

In preparation for my presentation (directed discussion) for The Augustana Ministerium's Theological Conference (30-31 August 2007) in Burleson, Texas, one of the readings which I suggested was Achieving Your Potential in Christ: Theosis by Anthony M. Coniaris. Selected portions of his book can be found on the internet.

As John Fenton points out on his blog, "Orthodoxy has no central body of "confessional documents" because it does not have a central hierarchical authority." Thus I cannot attribute to Coniaris's book any authoritative status on the subject of theosis. However, numerous Orthodox parishes refer to his book as an excellent resource for those interested in discovering more about theosis. Coniaris may not necessarily be the final authority but his presentation is highly regarded among the Eastern Orthodox.

Coniaris's book is in its 2nd edition from Light and Life Publishing Company. Its slightly over 100 pages (1st edition) are in large type font. His presentation is not a theological treatise, but a treatise for Eastern Orthodox laity.

Friday, August 10, 2007

Theosis: Achieving Your Potential in Christ (2)

Over a decade ago, a friend introduced me to the term 'Theosis.' Being thoroughly rooted in Missouri Synod Lutheranism, I had no idea what 'theosis' was. It sounded like a disease. But I was informed that this was a very old term and had great importance to the Eastern Orthodox Church's view of salvation. Now, after reading a few works on 'theosis,' I'm beginning to wonder if my first impression was not so far off the mark.

It is possible that some readers are now thoroughly offended by that previous comment. I will be simply dismissed as an unenlightened protestant heretic. (Yes, some EO writers clearly lump all protestants together as heretics and I am not in the least bothered by that judgment because they are wrong.) What I have discovered is that the word and concept of theosis carries with it all the baggage of the Eastern Orthodox Church.

Some Lutherans (particularly the Finnish Lutherans) have tried to resurrect the word 'theosis' into the vocabulary of the modern Lutheran Church. They rationalize their position by stating that 'theosis' simply means 'deification.' And because Luther himself uses the term 'deification,' it is appropriate for Lutherans to use the word 'theosis.' Some might consider this an over-simplification of their argument, but it basic point which I gathered from some Finnish Lutheran presentations.

The concept of theosis in Anthony Coniaris's book Achieving Your Potential in Christ: Theosis is the fruit of all Eastern Orthodox doctrine. All EO doctrine serves and enlightens its understanding of theosis. What this means is that the errors of EO on original sin, justfication, work of the Spirit (eg, Pelagianism) corrupt any positive usage of the term 'theosis.'

It is possible that 'theosis' is a very good term, but its current usage among the EO make it very inappropriate for usage by Evangelical Lutherans.

***

GJ - With a little research, certain threads come together: Fenton (who left Missouri for Eastern Orthodoxy), Berg's connections with Eastern Orthodoxy fans (probably Ft. Wayne graduates), and His Grace, the Right Rev. James Heiser, Archbishop of ELDONA. The theosis Eastern Orthodoxy paper will be or was given at the so-called Augustana Ministerium meeting. Augustana was organized to be a half-way house for LCMS pastors aching to join ELDONA but not ready yet.

My only conclusion at this point is that a lot of LCMS men are walking the tightrope between Lutheran doctrine and Eastern Orthodoxy, with far too much interest in EO, as the writer above likes to call it. (I consider that an ominous sign, like my classmate who referred to his parole officer as his PO. My crime-laden classmate seemed all too familiar with the criminal justice system.)

Since Lutheran clergy are so ignorant of Luther's doctrine and the writings of Chemnitz, wouldn't it be better to concentrate on their confessional writings rather than the dubious and amorphous body of Eastern Orthodox literature? As I recall, Kurt Marquart was quite wary of the EO trend, but he is gone. So is Robert Preus. It is not unusual to have the suppressed get even after the guard-dogs are gone.

***

A comment posted on Lutheran Enigma:

Fr John W Fenton said...
A few comments, if I may:

* I understand your argument that theosis does not measure up to a Lutheran standard. Unless I missed it (which is entirely possible), I don't see the points listed for how or why it doesn't measure up.

* When Coniaris suggests that theosis is "the fruit of all Eastern Orthodox doctrine," he is suggesting that, for the Orthodox, theosis is not a doctrine (e.g., justification or sanctification). I would suggest that it is the practical (and practiceable) application of baptism--which, per se, is not a doctrine. (It took me a while to learn this point about theosis.)

* If I'm going to study what Lutherans teach about justification or any other doctrine, reading Scaer or Marquart would not be as profitable as reading the Book of Concord or the application of the doctrine in the liturgy. I suggest the same is true of Orthodox theology (or any theology, for that matter). Coniaris is good, but his context is the liturgy and the church fathers (e.g., St Athanasius, St Maximos the Confessor, etc). Orthodox priests are not "bound" to Coniaris, but they are to the fathers and liturgy (although not in the same way that Lutherans are "bound" to the Book of Concord).

How Do You Define a Feeling?

When SP John Brenner (WELS) said Missouri was going liberal, his colleagues jumped him about the proof. He said, "How do you define a feeling?"

Brian Westgate wondered about the Niles, Michigan photo. I noticed that James Heiser, besides assuming the role of bishop, grew Eastern Orthodox chin whiskers. (Please don't cite the adiaphora section of the Formula of Concord. Give me a minute.) Rutovich, of Niles, has lost his, if memory serves.

Here is one website on orthodoxy and beards.

More on this subject.

In other words, beards are important to Eastern Orthodoxy. Bishops wear beards, big bushy ones. Perhaps Heiser has only a starter beard. There may be a trim length for the number of congregations served. The photos above illustrate big territories.

The Niles congregation is the one offering "Confessional Lutheran links" to a monastery where Mary is worshiped, the same liberal, ecumenical Marian center linked by the liberal Lutheran Forum folks. Do you homework, please. I scour the Internet for this information and you forget this stuff.

If I could read their email, look at their libraries, and hear what they discuss, I would predict whether these fellows were going to Rome or to Eastern Orthodoxy in the future. The trend out of Concordia, Ft. Wayne (where these men are from) is Eastern Orthodoxy. The Ft. Wayne graduates talk about Eastern Orthodoxy the way WELS leaders talk about Fuller Seminary. I have been to Ft. Wayne conferences. One Ft. Wayne graduate gave me a book on Eastern Orthodoxy and the Lutheran Reformation.

Google Fenton and Lutheran. You will find the pastors who are Fentonites. They are the ones who will finally join Eastern Orthodoxy.

Avery Dulles, SJ (son of John Foster Dulles) recruited Richard Neuhaus for the Roman Catholic priesthood. In time, a number of Neuhaus Lutheran Forum associates at Lutheran Forum were Roman Catholic priests.

Dulles' nickname among Romans is "A Very Dull SJ."

One priest in the Church of England grew tired of dealing with bishops. He said, "Bishops move obliquely in the game of chess, too."

In Defense of Ft. Wayne

Brian Westgate has left a new comment on your post "In Defense of Rev. Fenton":

The Bride is pretty much dead. Fenton pretty much killed it. Nor is Gottesdienst pro-Rome/Constantinople.

As for Zion, it can't be blamed for Fenton or Neuhaus, and I presume she would prefer to be known as incarnational and sacramental.

And I know graduates of the Fort who care more for Luther's doctrine than for Rome and the East. Why are you so sure of students becoming fond of them BECAUSE of certain professors?
Brian Westgate

***
GJ - So we have a bunch of effects without causes? My role as Informaton Maven is to sift through mounds of data and come up with opinions.

I have studied at Concordia, Ft. Wayne, attended conferences there, and talked with graduates of the school. I attended a David Scaer class. I know about Ft. Wayne faculty members promoting Rome and Eastern Orthodoxy from its graduates. When a seminary has defections from its graduates on a regular basis, something is definitely going on.

Previously, under Robert Preus, Ft. Wayne had a D.Min. program that was 100% Church Growth, according to Kincaid Smith. The faculty endorsed Church Growth principles, according to Kurt Marquart. The faculty also voted that it was 100% orthodox. The faculty is mixed, like all Lutheran seminaries, thanks to political judgments meaning more than doctrinal decisions.

I looked over the Zion, Detroit website. There are many indications of those tendencies. There are LCMS circles headed out of the Lutheran Church and ELCA circles headed the same way. There will be more polarity and more desire to get rid of those pastors. I recall the polarity starting in the LCA when a worship professor at LSTC was turning out graduates who told their congregations they had never worshiped properly before.

Church Growth services are so assinine that people would be inclined to look for something that is real worship. The plethora of new hymnals has made any given form temporary.

Some pastors can use terms like confession and mass without bowing ultimately to Rome. However, the ones who study worship incessantly - without knowing Luther's doctrine - are going to fall over on the other side. I think they should leave the Lutheran Church as soon as they reject Lutheran doctrine.

I see Rome and Eastern Orthodoxy constantly promoting their confessions, such as they are. Meanwhile, the Lutheran leaders are either Baptist-Pentecostal or halfway to Rome, and promoting both errors. Many pastors are serious and faithful, but the overall situation is absurd. No?

In Defense of Rev. Fenton

Paul McCain and others denounced Fenton for leaving the LCMS ministerium:

Fenton's Admission
I just finished listening to John Fenton's radio interview about his decision to leave Lutheranism and join the so-called "Orthodox" Faith. Several important things jumped out at me:

1) He had serious doubts and reservations about Lutheranism before he went to the seminary. He had visited an Orthodox parish and read Ware's book on Orthodoxy and as he admits in his interview he had "considered dropping out of the seminary" several times, but did not. Here we have to be concerned that there was not a much more careful screening process at the seminary. Men who have these kinds of grave doubts and reservations about Lutheranism simply should not be permitted to continue in their studies. One should never be permittted to attend seminary as a way to work through such grave doubts and reservations.

2) Fenton clearly rejects the Biblical confession of the Gospel in rejecting the doctrine of vicarious satisfaction and wishes simply to chalk up the propitiation of God's wrath as an Anselmic theory. He has replaced the pure Gospel with adiaphora. In other words, for Fenton the "law of faith" is trumped by the "law of praying." Pretty liturgy is no substitute for the beautiful truth of pure doctrine.


3) Clearly this was a calculated and well orchestrated move out of his parish. A home was purchased, plans were made, and "Bishop Mark" of the Antiochian Diocese has green lighted the development of a "Western Rite" Orthodox parish in the Detroit area and Fenton's eventual ordination. Pastors who are aware of fellow clergy dabbling with Orthodoxy would do well to be aware that this is not simply some innocent "questioning" but often part of a well planned effort to leave Lutheranism, and there is, as I indicated, a clear program under way to recruit others. To laity and pastors: if you suspect a person is being tempted by the siren songs from Istanbul ask the pastor in question to tell you, in full and thorough detail, why they believe Eastern Orthodoxy is wrong. If they demur, there's a problem.

4) Finally, and most tragically, Fenton indicates to the interviewer that in spite of years of "discerning" and "studying" he said he realized he simply had to embrace Orthodoxy in spite of things he "doesn't understand" about it, simply on the basis of "trust" that it must be right. Isn't that both pathetic and sad?

Let us pray that in spite of the error he has embraced by joining "Orthodoxy," John Fenton will be preserved in the saving faith and pure Gospel he learned at his father's knee in the Small Catechism. And let us all take heed and warning from this episode.

***

Fenton's resignation statement is posted, with responses, in this link.

From the Free Republic - this comment is revealing: "A few times recently, Fr. Daniel (the senior priest of the Antiochian Archdiocese) has been away from our little mission and our mother parish for missionary work--specifically discussions with LCMS clergy contemplating conversion to Orthodoxy."

An intelligent response to Fenton's assertations can be found at this LCMS pastor's blog.


A Mass will be celebrated to install Fenton's replacement:

The Installation Mass.

***

GJ - I suspected, and confirmed, that Fenton graduated from Concordia Seminary, Ft. Wayne. Weinrich, David Scaer, and others prepare Lutheran pastors to become Eastern Orthodox or Roman Catholic. (By the way, I found links to independent Romanist congregations, including Romanist women priests with Sophia blogs, papal togs. Just Google search on John Fenton LCMS and you will run into it - no fault of his.)

Recent graduates of Ft. Wayne are inordinately concerned with everything except Luther's doctrine. Their infatuation with Roman/Eastern worship is parallel to the WELS fascination with Baptist-Pentecostal seeker services.

I speak in defense of Fenton's move because he was honest in leaving. Instead of dancing along the tightrope, he joined the association closest to his beliefs and practices. I wish more clergy would do that. That would rid WELS of its crypto-Baptist-Pentecostals, LCMS-ELS of its crypto-Papists, ELCA of its crypto-Unitarians. But no, instead of joining what they believe, these foxes and weathervanes pretend to be what they loathe while trying to change the confession and practice of their church bodies.

Moving to Eastern Orthodoxy or Rome was unthinkable in the past. Now it is rather common to find high profile people doing this. I read Zion, Detroit's history and found Richard Neuhaus had worked there. The congregation has a tradition of being high church, as anyone can see from the church website.

I imagine there will be increasing reaction against the high church groups like Bride of Christ and Gottesdienst, leading more men to leave the LCMS/ELCA/ELS for Rome and Eastern Orthodoxy.