Romans 4 - From Luther versus the UOJ Pietists - The New Draft

Chapter: Exegetical Essay on Justification

Biblical passages have been abused to promote the false doctrine of Universal Objective Justification. People need to be armed against the frequent claims that “God has already declared the entire world forgiven.” The following pages will show that the UOJ argumentation is groundless and a base perversion of the Word of God. These studies began with laymen urging me to study these issues, so I am writing this chapter with them in mind. For that reason I am using my Greek text but offering an explanation that does not require knowledge of that language.

The LCMS Brief Statement

Of Justification

17. Holy Scripture sums up all its teachings regarding the love of God to the world of sinners, regarding the salvation wrought by Christ, and regarding faith in Christ as the only way to obtain salvation, in the article of justification. Scripture teaches that God has already declared the whole world to be righteous in Christ, Rom. 5:19; 2 Cor. 5:18-21; Rom. 4:25; that therefore not for the sake of their good works, but without the works of the Law, by grace, for Christ's sake, He justifies, that is, accounts as righteous, all those who believe, accept, and rely on, the fact that for Christ's sake their sins are forgiven. Thus the Holy Ghost testifies through St. Paul: "There is no difference; for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus," Rom. 3:23, 24. And again: "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the Law," Rom. 3:28.

The Missouri Synod approved the Brief Statement of 1932, the final effort of Francis Pieper, who was drafted by C. F. W. Walther to follow… in his steps. Unfortunately, many have treated this document as superior to the Book of Concord, supplanting the Confessions by making the Brief Statement of a Midwestern sect the final word on all doctrinal matters. Since this paragraph ties their doctrine to three passages, they need to be examined in context.

Romans 4:25 and 5:19

“The sins of the world were forgiven the moment Christ rose from the dead.”
KJV Romans 4:25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

That is a common claim, one that bears scrutiny. If the verse does not say what is claimed, the false foundation is removed. Clearly, the citation is only part of a statement, but the statement itself is found within the context of a chapter. We all know that chapter divisions in the Bible are rather arbitrary, assigned many centuries after the fact. Nevertheless, they follow the change in themes clearly visible in Romans.

Romans 4

Romans 4 has a theme, clearly articulated. The chapter teaches us about Abraham as the father of faith. He is the example to follow in this matter of justification, being declared free of sin by God.

KJV Romans 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. 6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, 7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. 8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. 9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.

In Romans, Paul offers the alternatives of faith or works, justification by faith (already established) or justification by works.

KJV Romans 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

KJV Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Throughout the Bible and the Confessions, justification is always justification by faith, as the most ardent UOJ advocates have admitted. This is especially true of Abraham, because the issue is raised – How was he counted or reckoned as righteous?

Romans 4: 9Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.

No one can claim from this section that anyone is counted righteous without faith.

KJV Romans 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: 12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised. 13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: 15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

The champions of UOJ rail against faith, belittling faith, mocking faith as if it were bad, dangerous, and a work of man! This shows the effect of false doctrine, hardening and blinding men, so they see what God extols as bad. Abraham was not righteous because of a work—circumcision—but received circumcision as the seal of the righteousness of faith.
Abraham was justified by faith before he was circumcision:

KJV Genesis 15:5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. 6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

Abraham was justified by faith before God commanded circumcision, which can be seen in the time between his justification and the instigation of circumcision.

KJV Genesis 17:10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.

Lenksi:
Abraham’s faith was so reckoned. His faith reached out to the Heir, to Christ. The moment it did this it became in God’s accounting perfect righteousness for him. He is our spiritual father, and all of us, like him, are accounted righteous by God in the same blessed way. He is never our ancestor due only to an outward religious connection of Christianity with Judaism.
4) There are two kinds of reckoning. Paul carefully distinguished between them, for only the one kind applies here. Now to the one working the pay is not reckoned according to grace but according to obligation; but to one not working (at all) but (only) believing on him who declares the ungodly one righteous his faith is reckoned for righteousness.
Lenski, R. C. H. (1936). The Interpretation of St. Paul's Epistle to the Romans (291). Columbus, Ohio: Lutheran Book Concern.

Romans 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

This language is especially important, because it is reflected in one of the Formula of Concord’s articles – The Righteousness of Faith. One of the best ways to change doctrine is to get people used to a new vocabulary. The righteousness of faith bridges the historical gap between Paul, the 1580 Book of Concord, and us. New terms and meanings must come from the outside, alien to the long line of faithful Gospel teachers. Objective Justification, Subjective Justification, General Justification, and Universal Justification are new words, foreign to Lutherans and opposed to the clear and precise Promises of God.

10] These treasures are offered us by the Holy Ghost in the promise of the holy Gospel; and faith alone is the only means by which we lay hold upon, accept, and apply, and appropriate them to ourselves. 11] This faith is a gift of God, by which we truly learn to know Christ, our Redeemer, in the Word of the Gospel, and trust in Him, that for the sake of His obedience alone we have the forgiveness of sins by grace, are regarded as godly and righteous by God the father, and are eternally saved.
Book of Concord, Formula of Concord, Solid Declaration, Article III, The Righteousness of Faith.

KJV Romans 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, 17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were. 18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be. 19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb: 20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; 21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. 22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. 23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; 24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; 25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

Faith is not opposed to grace because the word means trust in God, Who moves us to believe in His mercy in Christ because of the Holy Spirit working in the Gospel Promises. This is the Christ-centered and God-glorifying doctrine of the Christian Church, no matter who has changed or diluted or amalgamated it. True, the revivalists have damaged the original Biblical meaning of faith, by making man’s faith a healing and saving virtue. But, to paraphrase Luther, we should not be like the man who knifed his brother to death when trying to protect him from an attacking bear. The solution to revivalism and New Age salvation-by-positive-thinking is to teach against it, using the Word of God as a weapon, not to copy and paste sermons and ape their pathetic attempts at entertainment evangelism.

Romans 4:22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness

The context is Abraham believing he will be the father of many nations and acting on that Promise of God. Once again, this important term “imputed” (counted, reckoned) is used. He believed and he was counted righteous. His actions were works of faith, which glorify God, not works of the Law, which cause men to boast (see the Pharisee and the publican parable).

Highpoint of Romans 4

23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; 24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; 25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

The Holy Spirit revealed through Paul that Abraham was the first of many, not just a single figure in the Bible. The Word of God teaches us that we are also counted righteous (imputation, reckoning) if we believe on Him that raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. The entire sentence should be quoted and cited and not just Romans 4:25 in a misleading way.
Romans 4:25 explains the glorious work of God in the Atonement (delivered for our offences) and the resurrection. There is no claim that the world was absolved of its sin and forgiven the moment Christ rose from the dead.

Lenski:
“Our” transgressions, “our” being declared righteous, as in other similar expressions, speak of the believers alone because in them the purpose of Christ’s death and his resurrection is fully realized. The fact that Christ died also for those who deny him and bring swift destruction on themselves (2 Pet. 2:1) does not need to be introduced here. The two “our” prevent us from making “because of our justification” signify the justification of the whole world instead of “our justification,” “our” referring to us believers (personal justification). It is this justification with which the entire chapter deals and constantly also emphasizes faith.
Lenski, R. C. H. (1936). The Interpretation of St. Paul's Epistle to the Romans (328–329). Columbus, Ohio: Lutheran Book Concern.

Transition to Romans 5:1-2

The highpoint of Romans 4 is the transition to Romans 5:1-2, the classic statement of justification by faith. All of Romans 4 should be read as the introduction to Romans 5 – that is, as an extended explanatory passage teaching faith in the Word of God. Very much like the Gospel of John, Paul begins with a spiritual truth and expands upon it by repetition, giving more and more meaning to the term as it is repeated and explained. Justification by faith in Romans 3, 4, and 5 is like the Bread of Life in John 6 or the Good Shepherd in John 10.

KJV Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: 2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. 3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; 4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope: 5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

To derive justification without faith (UOJ) from Romans 4:25, right in the middle of Paul’s justification by faith chapters, is an act of criminal dishonesty. The Missouri Synod absorbed the toxins of UOJ slowly, not even reflecting them in their 1905 catechism. Once established as a doctrinal norm, UOJ sped the transition to the doctrines of Enthusiasm and the works of the flesh.

Appreciation

Jukjs2 (http://openid.aol.com/jukjs2) has left a new comment on your post "From a WELS Blog":

I think the reason these CORE people find traditional WELS pastors boring is because they find the Gospel boring. They think the means of grace are boring. The constant repetition of bland praise choruses is boring to me. Sermons that contain nothing but Third Use of Law bore me to tears. Therapeutic "practical' sermons have me looking at my watch and humming eighties pop hits.

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Scott E. Jungen has left a new comment on your post "Appreciation":

For those of you who think Dr. Jackson and Ichabod are way off-base in their description of WELS and its leadership, read the series of posts under "From a WELS Blog." Notice "gvonseng" and "electricoptimist" do not post their real names.

Notice the tone of their posts, all attacks. Notice the usage of terms like "pharisee". Did someone warn you that's how you would be answered by a CORE member or the WELS leadership? Hmmmm?

Now, contrast Daniel Baker and myself. Notice I use my real name, and I'll assume Mr. Baker does the same. Mr. Baker has done a fine job of expressing his concerns about the CORE. I attempt to do the same, although I am guilty of using a bad pun or two. Notice our lack of childish name-calling and such. The differences are plain to see.

So,"gvongseng" and "electricoptimist" feel free to continue following false teachers and munch popcorn in a theater. Please, leave the WELS to the true Confessional Lutherans who are still around. We would rather be in the throne room of a King.
Scott E. Jungen

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Daniel Baker has left a new comment on your post "Appreciation":

Mr. Jungen is completely right in his analysis. I've had to turn on the "moderate comments feature" do to some of these people, not because they have content I'm afraid of, but because they are using profane and grotesque insults. It's rather disturbing.

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Scott E. Jungen has left a new comment on your post "Appreciation":

Daniel,

Thank you. I believe people attacking you is a sign that they cannot refute your arguments, so they turn to name-calling and foul language. Keep up the good work.

Scott E. Jungen

Emulsifying Pastors

Popcorn theater churches depend on emulsifying pastors.

Oil and water do not mix. If someone attempts a mixture, they soon separate. Keeping them blended requires an emulsifier.

Sound doctrine does not mix with false doctrine, so how can Enthusiasm be sneaked into a congregation, school, or synod? Emulsifying pastors make it happen. They are not completely loyal to one area (orthodoxy) or the alternative (Enthusiasm), but argue for the mixture to remain in suspension.

Too many people focus on the easy targets, whose fanatical devotion shows they are completely in the camp of Enthusiasm. This blog has fallen into that temptation more than once. The midwives of full-blown apostasy enable this treachery with their clever statements:
1. This is a g-r-e-y area of Scripture. (Stretch out g-r-e-y in an agony of contemplation.)
2. That c-a-n be understood correctly. (Stretch out c-a-n, as if considering a new element, a work of art, or a table loaded with food.)
3. We should spoil the Egyptians, repeating an old slogan, never hinting that Augustine never meant to copy pagan religion but to use the tools of the classical age.

An emulsifying agent creates a blend, and emulsifying pastors argue for:

1. Blended worship.
   
2. Blended doctrine.

The emulsifier argues that his orthodoxy, his DNA, and his superb training allow him to hold Lutheran doctrine and Enthusiasm in suspension, an explosive blend guaranteed to yield enthusiastic Lutherans.

The three partners of the Synodical Conference have promoted this view, as subtle as a zephyr, for decades. The results are obvious, but no one wants to admit anything. The emulsifying pastors never cease their work, acting shocked if anyone asks questions, falling into memory lapses when the facts are repeated - as if that mattered. "I am not sure about that." "I don't remember that." The emulsifying pastors have changed worship to match their agenda: Blended worship - a mixture of Emergent Church paganism and good ol' fashioned Lutheranism. They even have a blogs to promote their emulsion - Blended Worship is just one of them.

Here is one example, found on a blog called Blended Worship. Worship really is "purpose" driven. (WELS pastor Aaron Christie, article in a WELS publication.) Let's look at the footnote references:
1. Apology, Augsburg Confession.
2. Timothy Maschke, Gathered Guests. LCMS author - liturgical.
3. Reggie McNeal of Emergent Church fame.
4. Rick Warren - whose motto is copied in the title.
5. David Valleskey - the WELS emulsifier-in-chief.
6. Marva Dawn - Missouri's expert in women's ordination.

Two Lutheran references lead people into the non-Lutheran agenda - four references. Clever.

Rev. Marva Dawn, LCMS

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gangloff (http://gangloff.myopenid.com/) has left a new comment on your post "Emulsifying Pastors":

In case you ever thought Eve was foolish, there are people today who will sell their souls for popcorn. Worse still are the people who offer the popcorn. Next time look around for the Devil. You might actually see him.

Why Are Apostate Leaders So Bitterly Opposed To Their Own Heritage?

Apostate leaders have one advantage over all their opponents. People assume the apostate leader can be persuaded based upon their common tradition. They take a box of chocolates to a knife fight and wonder why they end up bleeding to death.

An apostate is someone who has fallen away from the faith, a former believer. That perspective is essential in understanding how these people work.

They turn against their past to advance themselves and do not like to be reminded about what they no longer believe. People think they are reminding the DP of what he knows and believes, but the meeting comes across as a guilty conscience speaking to the DP about his betrayals.

His hardened heart does not want to be reminded. He will strike back, and his victims wonder what happened.

One LCA clergy couple said they were going to meet with their bishop and tell him what was wrong with the LCA. I said, "I know this guy. He cannot stand any kind of confrontation. He will have a colitis attack and say very little, but he will get even every way he can." I suggested they work out a new plan for leaving.

I told one person to expect raging when he met with an LCA pastor. Instead, the man was sugary sweet. But he knew so little that he claimed Christians believed in the Immaculate Conception of Jesus! Next he refused to look up the term in a nearby religious dictionary. I can understand why laity might mix up the Virgin Birth of Christ with the alleged Immaculate Conception of Mary, but a Lutheran pastor should a) know the difference, and b) want to look up the topic.

WELS began as a Pietistic unionistic sect and started to turn Lutheran under the influence of Bading and Hoenecke. Missouri sent some head-slaps their way, too. The 19th century saw a gradual movement away from revivalism and Pietism in the Muhlenberg (LCA) tradition, toward the Book of Concord - thanks to the Henkels and the General Council split.

WELS has returned to its Pietistic and unionistic past, thanks to the unceasing efforts of the Doctrinal Pussycats, college and seminary professors, and lick-spittles. They have added another (lower) level by adopting entertainment seeker services--with food--and New Age paganism. Remember when they denounced Missouri for going liberal and denying it? WELS does that without remorse. Remember how they said, "Synods are like fish, rotting from the head"? Look at The Love Shack and Sausage Factory.

WELS dined out on Missouri unionism for decades. They read Christian News and exclaimed, and I quote, "I thank God every day that I am not in the Missouri Synod." (or like this publican)

WELS' entire program is based on unionism. They go to false teachers to learn, and invite false teachers like Space Cadet Sweet to lecture them. And they love it! Fox Valley devours Groeschel and Swindoll because both men are unionistic Pietists. They are all singing from the same page of the hymnal, and it is "Shine, Jesus, Shine." And the non-Lutherans are making them pay for it, big time.

The WELS (and Missouri) DPs have been promoting unionism, synergism, and entertainment for decades. To go to Englebrecht and complain about unionism, synergism, and entertainment is tantamount to criticizing his mother - Holy Mother WELS, the inerrant and infallible alma mater. Is he going to smile and crack open his Book of Concord?

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clittle (http://clittle.myopenid.com/) has left a new comment on your post "Why Are Apostate Leaders So Bitterly Opposed To Th...":

The spineless and odious posturing of religious leaders needs to end now. They only provide a disservice to listeners.

From a WELS Blog

Yeast Through Dough

Not Here to Grandstand

There have been a couple of comments recently added to previous posts by people who find what I have written and done as documented in this blog to be wrong or deceitful. In light of this, there are a couple of things I think are pertinent for the reader to understand about this blog.

Firstly, as you can garner for yourself if you systematically read the previous posts here, I created this blog merely as a way to post my experience at the CORE, an endeavor I set out to do after reading all the gossip about the place on the internet. I did so to see if it was really as bad as they say, or if it was simply a case of die-hards not willing to see change in any fashion.

As I outlined in the very first post on this blog, I have no problem with change. There is nothing wrong with casual dress, guitars, and power point screens (in my opinion). If this is all there was to the CORE, I wouldn't care! I'm a college student, I listen to Casting Crowns, Aaron Shust, etc. - I have no problem with such styles of praise. After all, in its day the organ was "new;" I'm sure the individuals raised with Gregorian Chant were adverse to that "change" as well. However, the organ served a useful purpose in the church, in that it allowed a wider variety of music, music which could be participated in by all people. If a powerpoint screen serves the same end by more conveniently displaying the words of a hymn or the Scripture readings, then glory be to God for providing such a tool.

Unfortunately, utilizing "newer" forms of worship is not the "problem" with CORE. The issues I have raised with CORE are largely doctrinal (yes, I outlined such things as the irreverence of popcorn chewing during the prayer, but that was not the main thrust of my post). As I stated in the post, I will state again: The CORE utilized a sermon outline ripped right off of the website LifeChurch.tv, an organization developed by Craig Groeschel. You can read about why Groeschel and his ilk are so harmful to the Church here and here on Intrepid Lutherans.

If my experience at the CORE had been Christ-centered, cross-focused, I would have reported positively here and this blog would have ceased to be viewed any further. Unfortunately, the experience I had at CORE was anything but Christ-centered. As such, I find it prudent that the individuals responsible for this blatant misuse of a "worship service" be brought to task, both the actual perpetrators and their superiors. Unfortunately, save for one individual my letters concerning such have gone unheeded. THAT is why this is such a big deal.

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Scott E. Jungen said...

Daniel,

Well written! As someone slightly older, I thank the Lord for the concern shown for Confessional Lutheranism on this and other sights.

The core of the problem (no pun intended, really!) is that many in the WELS leadership condone and encourage situations like the CORE. (I am a member of the Northern Wisconsin District, 'nuff said.) I would be surprised if any of the others you have written even acknowledge your letter.
Keep up your spirit and the good work.

September 9, 2010 9:49 PM

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samuelthrace said...

You know, you could have gotten a response. Apparantly, you were at the Core. Why didn't you just speak to the pastor about your concerns after the service? I have a feeling that you are more interested in grandstanding on the internet than actually accomplishing something.

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electronicoptimist said...
So you like sermons that lul you into a catatonic state do you? If so.. most other WELS churches are just for you! What is the retention rate in your boring old blue-haired and cotton-topeed member churches once 'kids' go on to non-WELS colleges? Like lefty-leaning liberals in universities.. all you do is churn out the same old same old. Perhaps this is why The Core is growing while others are hurting.
September 9, 2010 12:50 PM

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Daniel Baker said...
Well, if you're in it for entertainment, then by all means go to CORE! Maybe you can bring your ipod so you can listen to it if you get bored during the sermon from LifeChurch.tv.

Are a lot of WELS pastors boring? Yes. Look, I have no problem with change, if done for the right reasons. I have no problem with using a guitar in church. I have no problem updating or using a new liturgy. I have no problem with power point screens.

What I *DO* have a problem with is poor content. Lutheran worship (for that matter, *Christian* worship) is supposed to be Christ-centered, cross-focused. If we're not going to be focused on Christ, why even exist? People can get works-righteous morality from any number of other religions. THAT is the "same old same old."

As I said in my post (did you even read it?), the majority of people in the CORE are WELS members. Is this the "growth" you are looking for?

Unlike you imply, I am one of those "kids" going to a non-WELS college. In fact, I used to be like you, because the WELS church and schools I went to have become progressively more and more like yourself. However, after entering college I had the opportunity to study the book of concord, at which point I realized we are no longer true to the confessions. I find it dubious that WELS churches claim to be true to them, while clearly defying them (like the CORE does).

If you want to be like the other denominations, fine - but don't pretend to be something you're not.
September 9, 2010 1:37 PM

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gvonseng said...
Ski's sermon's are "Totally" Christ based. You sir made a total fool of yourself with this blog. You sound like a pharisee. People wonder why the WELS is a failure. It's your ritualistic pompous attitude that will be it's downfall.
September 9, 2010 4:10 PM

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electronicoptimist said...
I have attended The Core for several months after being a member at Bethany for years. You are wrong in your assessment of The Core and had I seen you snapping pictures of me.. I would have shoved your phone/camera where only the good lord would have found it. I am writing a letter to Pastor Mark Schroeder in defense of these unwaranted attacks from jealous zealots who couldn't draw new members to their church if they were handing out autographed copies of the shroud of turin!

Please advise as to the difference between popcorn and soda and cheerios and sippy cups?

You and your fellow jealous/hating brethren bloggers should be the ones to break away. I'll give you a head start: SMELLS = Stale Moldy Evangelical Lutheran Lunatic Sycophants
September 9, 2010 8:17 PM

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electronicoptimist said...
BTW: Everything in the building (inside and out) was already there. This was a $5M building that went under in a year. Even the TV's were included. Your references to walls lined with flat screen TV's (there are 2) is a gross misrepresentation. Forced fellowship.. give me a break. I worshipped at a WELS church for 9 years and had 2 people the ENTIRE time introduce themselves to me and my family. The church before that was a congregation I was baptized in through the following 25 years. In that time.. unless I was in the church's school and your kids were in school with me.. I didn't know you and rarely got as much as an acknowledgement of my existence. Too bad there wasn't any 'forced fellowship'... I may actually know people when I attend my parent's congregation.
September 9, 2010 8:56 PM

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Daniel Baker said...
So defensive.

Reminds me of a little song.

"The world is sorely grieved
whenever it is slighted,
or when its hollow fame
and honor have been blighted.
Christ, Thy reproach I bear,
long as it pleaseth Thee.
I'm honored by my Lord -
What is the world to me?"

It's an old hymn, you've probably never heard it, what with all the anti-Trinitarian Phillips Craig and Dean you're accustomed to listening to.
September 9, 2010 9:53 PM

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naderhoff (http://naderhoff.myopenid.com/) has left a new comment on your post "From a WELS Blog":

"You know, you could have gotten a response."

No, thank you. The direct approach fails with their bullheadedness.

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GJ - Pastor Tim Glende blocks email from people who want to talk to him. Paul Calvin Kelm refused to answer people about the Sweet conference. Englebrecht refused to meet with the group of pastors and laity, even though he dishonestly set up an appointment for that purpose. Larry Olson told me that he would never answer my emails, that he would consider them all as spam.

I see a pattern.