Jester on LutherQueasy Rouses Himself to Lay a Trap for Their Beehive of Enthusiasm

 Joe Krohn is always blowing his horn, sometimes on key.

Appeal?

On September 3, 2011, we submitted the following to the President of the South Central District of the WELS.  Although we had accepted the right hand of fellowship locally with an LC-MS church prior, nevertheless we were moved to challenge the decision of Holy Word as we have always held that they were teaching false doctrine and that if we did not appeal, we would be shirking our responsibilities to our Christian brothers and sisters.

"Dear Pastor Glaeske, 

Peace in Jesus. 

The Voting Assembly of Holy Word Lutheran Church made disposition of our membership/ fellowship upon the recommendation of the pastor, elders and council to terminate fellowship with us in their meeting of August 28, 2011 on the grounds that we reject the teaching of Objective Justification as the WELS teaches it; when in fact we have held to the belief that the way Pastor Patterson is preaching and teaching it, with full support of the elders and council is in error according to the Scriptures and even the Wisconsin Ev. Luth. Synod.  Pastor Patterson has maintained that per his sermon of January 30, 2011 that all men are forgiven of their sins, even before they were born; before hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17); before being convicted by the Holy Spirit through the Law and subsequent contrition and repentance also worked by the Holy Spirit through faith (also worked by the Holy Spirit) for the sake of Christ’s redemptive work.  (See Second and Third Articles of the Apostles Creed & Luther’s explanations) 

We feel that there is no need to ‘reinvent the wheel’ so to speak and that the letter of appeal that you received prematurely in June (as well as the copy sent to Holy Word) is still viable in this case. 

We add to the attached letter the following; that the behaviors of Pastor Patterson, the Elders and the Council President of Holy Word have acted in a deplorable fashion by: 

·         Conducting ‘bible classes’ designed to create a consensus against what we (the Krohns) believe to be the true teaching of justification as presented in the Bible and even in the WELS. 

·         Telling members publicly that they are not judging whether we have saving faith or not and then telling members privately that the Krohns have fallen away from the true faith and angrily so. 

·         By their letter of May 21, 2011, they refused to discuss the doctrine of justification with us going forward and insisted to only meet with us to discuss the subject of fellowship (which we refused since fellowship was not the issue); while the Council President, attorney Brad Johnston falsely declared in the Voters Meeting that we were offered to have a doctrinal discussion and that we refused.  This was a blatant misrepresentation of the facts. 

We pray for an expeditious and God pleasing conclusion as we appeal the decision by Holy Word Lutheran Church. 

In His Grace,

Joe and Lisa Krohn"

Here is the formal letter we submitted in June:

"June 18, 2011 


Pastor Vilas Glaeske 
District President
South Central District of the WELS 
C/O Grace Lutheran Church 
6788 Farm Road 115 
Scroggins, TX  75480 


RE:  Appeal to the Termination of Fellowship 

Dear Pastor Glaeske: 


I am writing to you as a matter of appeal in reference to our expulsion from Holy Word Lutheran Church, Austin Texas and the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod on May 21, 2011.  We had taken issue with certain practices and teaching at Holy Word that were leading the church farther away from what is taught in the Bible and the Book of Concord.  These practices included abolishing Confession and Absolution in some worship services; selection of music not Biblically sound; calling and installing a female with proper title (Deaconess) which denotes an authority; public preaching and teaching of God’s Word by non-ordained men; poor stewardship of finances; questionable leadership practice and shepherding of the flock; a dropping of the name ‘Lutheran’ in the school name for the sake of marketing the school; and a closer look at the non-confessional practices happening at Holy Word’s sister congregation, Christ the Rock.  


Furthermore, Pastor Patterson is teaching an extreme doctrine of Objective Justification whereas the entire world has been forgiven their sins prior to faith by the work of the cross; even before they were born.  This is in direct conflict with the scriptures as confessed in the Third Article of the Apostles Creed where the work of the forgiveness of sins is ascribed to the Holy Ghost through faith and the hearing of the Word of God.  We were excommunicated for denying the doctrine of Objective Justification when in fact we were objecting to his understanding and teaching of the doctrine namely; that the forgiveness of sins takes place apart from the Means of Grace...


Page 1 


Pastor Vilas Glaeske

June 18, 2011

Page 2 


...The devil will war against Christ’s Church until the end of time and certainly these times are not pleasant.  But with God’s help we must stay vigilant for the truth in worship, practice, teaching and preaching.


In His Grace,


Joe and Lisa Krohn


CC:  Pastor Patterson, Elders of Holy Word"

Pastor Glaeske responded on September 5, 2011:

"Dear Joe and Lisa, 


Grace and Peace in Christ. 

Before I set the panel of review in place I want to be sure you understand what the panel will be charged to. 


The panel will only consider whether proper procedure has been followed in arriving at the decision reached by the congregation.

The District Constitution states:  ARTICLE XXIV

Section 3.  The constitution for the districts affirms that “in intracongregational matters the district shall have purely advisory authority” (Article “ IX, Section 2).  The review shall be conducted, therefore, to determine whether the process leading to the disciplinary action and the doctrinal basis of the disciplinary action were scriptural.

Section 4. The conduct of the review shall rest solely with the District Board of Appeals. The board shall have the right and power to examine all documentary evidence and to require such testimony that, in its judgment, is relevant.

Section 5. The district Board of Appeals shall submit its decision in writing to the appellant with a copy to the disciplining body, circuit pastor, and district president. The decision of the District Board of Appeals shall be the final disposition of the appeal.

Section 6. Within 30 days of the board’s decision, the complete records of the board shall be filed with the district president, who shall act, if necessary, in accordance with his responsibility for the district’s doctrine and practice. 


It is important that you understand this from the outset. I would like you to affirm this before the onset of the panel’s work. 

A second point that I would like you to affirm is that you have not joined a congregation of another fellowship, or have been communing in a congregation of another fellowship.  I would also like to have you answer in one way or another before the panel is put to work. 


I am praying that a brotherly solution can be reached. 


In His service, 


Vilas R. Glaeske,

President – South Central District, WELS"

From Luther's Small Catechism; Originally edited by C. Gausewitz; Copyright 1956 NPH:

'The Forgiveness of Sins (Pages 153-156)

254.  Which is the most precious gift that the Holy Ghost by the Gospel bestows on the Church?

The most precious gift is the Forgiveness of Sins or the righteousness of Christ, by which we are justified before God. (Justification)  Rom. 4:7-8, Rom. 1:16-17

260.  Why do we say that the Holy Ghost forgives sins, whereas we are made righteous before God through the redemption of Christ?

The Holy Ghost brings the righteousness of Christ to us by the Gospel and gives us the faith to believe it.  1 Cor. 12:3, 1 Cor. 6:11, Acts 2:38

261.  To whom does God forgive sins?

God forgives sins to me and all believers.  Acts 10:43, Rom. 3:21-28, Rom 10:4

262.  Where are sins forgiven?

Sins are forgiven in the Christian Church on Earth.

263.  Why do we say, In the Christian Church on earth?

We say this because Christ has given the Gospel to His Church on Earth; in the Gospel we have the forgiveness of sins."

To say there is forgiveness of sins (righteousness) and justification outside of the church apart from the Holy Spirit is heresy.  Christ's objective righteousness and justification is His to distribute through faith and we know that Christ is in His Church with the Means of Grace in Word and Sacrament.

LutherRocks has left a new comment on your post "WELS Is an Un-Appealing Sect: Those Kicked Out Can...": 

"to determine whether the process leading to the disciplinary action and the doctrinal basis of the disciplinary action were scriptural."

That's what you'd call 'fine print'. We knew we were dead meat right there. Then to add insult to injury, they slap you with joining another church in the meantime...as it drags on and on while they wait for you to 'reconsider your position' to kiss the ring. 

 UOJ makes everything possible - Ask ELCA-WELS-ELS-LCMS-Fuller.

From Jester (Joe Krohn) - on LutherQueasy
"But don't claim that they do not express the fullness of justification by grace through faith." 

Right. 

Not justification by faith through grace. I think that's where the deniers are. That's where "in few of faith" ends up. Grace first, not faith. If there is not grace first there is nothing for faith to grasp.

***

GJ - Objective Justification floats on a sea of if/then clauses, using their own presuppositions to support their conclusions, without any Biblical evidence.

Krohn does not address Genesis 15:6, Romans 4, or the Justification by Faith epistle that Paul wrote to the Galatians.

To quote the Jester - "If there is not grace first there is nothing for faith to grasp."

That reminds me of Luther. They talk about grace all the time but tear down the bridge to grace - the Means of Grace.

A New Heresy - Funnier than Tim Glende's Inuit Fidei. Joe Krohn's "In Few of Faith"LutherQueasies Can Run, But They Cannot Hide

 For better, informed reading, check out this newly published, free book -
The Error of Modern Missouri.

Joe Krohn (Jester) Advanced Member Username: Jekster Post Number: 685 Registered: 4-2011

Posted on Wednesday, May 29, 2019 - 10:58 pm:       "But don't claim that they do not express the fullness of justification by grace through faith." Right. Not justification by faith through grace. I think that's where the deniers are. That's where "in few of faith" ends up. Grace first, not faith. If there is not grace first there is nothing for faith to grasp.

***
GJ - Tim Glende coined a new term when he tried to fashion Intuitu Fidei from the booze-soaked memories of his undergraduate education.

Glende charged me, anonymously, with the scandal of Inuitu Fidei - The Faith of the Inuits, or Eskimo. Edward Preuss, of blessed memory, forerunner of those leaving Missouri for Rome, wrote "eskimeaux," my favorite antique term. The Eskimeaux are born forgiven - like the Hottentots, according to Preuss. Can you imagine trekking to their land and explaining how they were already forgiven and saved? And you are starting a mission to convince them of this before joining their ice fishing or being used as a target in the poisoned arrow contest!

His rebuttal was something like, "Just becuz I cant spell..."

Now comes Joe Krohn (that's how lawsuits are worded) to prosecute his case against "In Few of Faith," the funniest quip from  the Objective Justification salesmen this week. I waited for an edit, in case the LQ beehive noticed. They did not correct Joe's hilarious error.

LQ likes to attack and then hide. That is fine with me but a sad note for them, who want the world to admire their Biblical knowledge. If they dealt with the classic Justification by Faith passages in the Bible, they would defeat themselves.

Tim Glende studied the Faith of Inuits at Mordor.
Uncredited cameo - Katy Perry in her onesie.

Joe Krohn Wonders Why Kudu Don Patterson Does Have a Gig At the Jeske Gag Fest

Many of us think having live bunnies to pet
on Easter Sunday is a cutting edge idea
for evangelism.
That is what Easter Sunday is all about - cutting edge stuff.

Anonymous said...

I guess we need to define what "fellowship" is and "worship". Evidently they don't mean we think it means. (You keep on using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means...)

Bill Clinton had his own definition for "sex" and "smoking". Is there a similarity here?

--Joe K.

July 30, 2014 at 9:00 AM

 Joe Krohn said...

BTW...I am saddened to see that Don Patterson wasn't on the bill. This leadership stuff is right up his alley...

Luther is rolling over in his grave; 'Lutherans' who have lost touch with the left and right hand kingdoms.

Room for More Blogs Here

Some blogs are gone, but not forgotten.
Some are forgotten, but not yet gone.

Warming Up the Tar and Feathers on LutherQuest. No Time for the Facts

Karl Pierson (Karl_pierson) Senior Member Username: Karl_pierson Post Number: 1587 Registered: 1-2009

Posted on Saturday, October 06, 2012 - 4:53 pm:       I just heard that the WELS has suspended a pastor by the name of Rydecki for denying objective justification. Does anyone have the facts?

Kirk Meyer (Kirk) Member Username: Kirk Post Number: 104 Registered: 2-2002

Posted on Saturday, October 06, 2012 - 7:49 pm:       The following papers and letters, produced by Rev. Rydecki, would shed some light on the matter from his perspective: Emmanuel Lutheran Church Resources

Louis Benoit (Louis) Intermediate Member Username: Louis Post Number: 278 Registered: 12-2010

Posted on Saturday, October 06, 2012 - 5:43 pm:       Karl, a group calling itself Intrepid Lutherans reports on Rev. Paul Rydecki's suspension from the WELS this past week.

Kirk Meyer (Kirk) Member Username: Kirk Post Number: 104 Registered: 2-2002

Posted on Saturday, October 06, 2012 - 7:49 pm:       The following papers and letters, produced by Rev. Rydecki, would shed some light on the matter from his perspective: Emmanuel Lutheran Church Resources

Karl Pierson (Karl_pierson) Senior Member Username: Karl_pierson Post Number: 1588 Registered: 1-2009

Posted on Saturday, October 06, 2012 - 10:48 pm:       Well, that pretty much says it. Paul Rydecki denies objective justification. What does he make of 2 Cor. 5:19: "... in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them..."? How can God count their trespasses against them if according to the Scriptures he does not count their trespasses against them? What does he make of John 1:29: "Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!"? How can the Lamb of God not away the sin of the world if according to Scripture he does take away the sin of the world? Good choice, WELS! Good choice!

GJ - Polish the thumb screws and dust off the rack.

Daniel Gorman (Heinrich) Senior Member Username: Heinrich Post Number: 1613 Registered: 11-2004

Posted on Sunday, October 07, 2012 - 12:24 am:       Karl Pierson: "Paul Rydecki denies objective justification." You are entitled to your opinion based on Rev. Rydecki's public writings. I have not evaluated them as yet. According to the Intrepid article, Rev. Rydecki was suspended "on the charge of teaching the “false doctrine” of Justification by Faith Alone not for denying "objective justification." I went to the WELS Az-Ca District website and could not find any information regarding the cause of Rev. Rydecki's suspension. If WELS Az-Ca District suspended Pr. Rydecki, the district should promptly disclose the reason for Pr. Rydecki's suspension and publicly refute his errors so that others are not misled.

Joe Krohn (Jekster) Member Username: Jekster Post Number: 91 Registered: 4-2011

Posted on Sunday, October 07, 2012 - 12:32 am:       This is an unfortunate and sad story that can be attributed, at least in this writers opinion that the Jacksonian sect has had an affect on Pr. Rydecki and serves as a warning to mark and avoid Jackson and his followers. (The Ichabodians are claiming victory this evening...) These guys scoff at the universal reconciliation and redemption of the world and refuse to address the 'intuitu fidei' issue as espoused by Lenski. I don't believe that Pr. Rydecki denies objective justification, but rather the sloppy teaching of OJ in parts of the WELS as this ex-WELsian can prove by his suspension scars...

Daniel Baker (Livinthehylife) New member Username: Livinthehylife Post Number: 5 Registered: 10-2011

Posted on Sunday, October 07, 2012 - 1:41 am:       Ah, yes, someone thinks it's unbiblical to say that the reprobate have been forgiven and declared righteous - must be brainwashed by Greg Jackson. Please.

Karl Pierson (Karl_pierson) Senior Member Username: Karl_pierson Post Number: 1589 Registered: 1-2009	Posted on Sunday, October 07, 2012 - 8:53 am:       From "The Biblical Doctrine of Justification on One Page:" God credits the righteousness of Christ only to those who believe in Jesus, and thus justifies only those who believe in Jesus. (John 3:16-18, 36; Luke 18:14; Acts 13:39; Rom. 3:26; 4:5; 10:10; Gal. 2:16; Phil. 3:8-9) These are Paul Rydecki's words, Daniel Gorman. Check out his sermon entitled: "Faith is the difference between those who are justified and those who are not." The sermon is mostly good, except that he confuses law and gospel by rendering the gospel as a description of persons having faith rather than God justifying sinners. Joe, I think I know what you are talking about when you speak of "the sloppy teaching of OJ in parts of WELS." It goes something like this: "God has forgiven all the sins you have ever committed, all the sins you are committing right now, and all the sins you are about to commit in the future." That may be an exaggeration, but sometimes you walk away with that impression. And, while the statement is technically true, it's not good penitential preaching. Well, the opposite must be avoided too. To describe faith as the conditio sine qua non for receiving Christ's righteousness is not false, but in the proclamation of the universal gospel, this conditio is often used as a preacher's crutch, a third leg between law and gospel, in order to avoid the cultivation of hypocrisy--as if such were the preacher's task to begin with. And, in the case of Paul Rydecki, the opposite has resulted in a categorical denial of objective justification.
Franz Linden (Franz_mann) Senior Member Username: Franz_mann Post Number: 1338 Registered: 12-2004	Posted on Sunday, October 07, 2012 - 2:57 pm:       Karl Pieron writes: To describe faith as the conditio sine qua non for receiving Christ's righteousness is not false, but in the proclamation of the universal gospel, this conditio is often used as a preacher's crutch, a third leg between law and gospel, in order to avoid the cultivation of hypocrisy--as if such were the preacher's task to begin with. This is a very good point. Just as it is not the responsibility of the preacher of the Gospel to make the people correct their behavior, it is also not the responsibility of the preacher of the Gospel to keep people from being hypocrites. They are two sides of the same coin. Franz
Dick Rockenbach (Drock) Senior Member Username: Drock Post Number: 1789 Registered: 11-2004	Posted on Sunday, October 07, 2012 - 4:11 pm:       "Just as it is not the responsibility of the preacher of the Gospel to make the people correct their behavior, it is also not the responsibility of the preacher of the Gospel to keep people from being hypocrites. They are two sides of the same coin." But it is the Preachers responsibilty to use the Law to drive them to repentance and restore them with the Gospel (Luther- Pless "what Luther says". It is also his responsibility to make clear who is under the Grace of God and who is not Walther- Proper Distinction of Law & Gospel 12th, 13th 23rd & (29th?). It would seem to me that those who deny OJ are attempting to do that but in the error of rejecing OJ in the effort to teach the Truth of SJ. Walther > But to preach properly is difficult. For this reason a student of theology ought to make proper preaching his highest aim. For if he is unable to preach, he does not belong in the ministry. In our orthodox Church a servant of God is a minister of Jesus Christ, and his worth does not lie in a certain undefined quality that has been imparted to him at his ordination or consecration, in something that other people have not and which, for that reason, makes him such a sacrosanct and precious person. By no means; the worth of a true minister of the Church lies exclusively in his ability to preach properly. If he has not this ability, the pulpit is not the place for him; for the pulpit is for preaching. Preaching is the central element of every divine service. What is to be effected by preaching? Bear in mind that the preacher is to arouse secure souls from their sleep in sin; next, to lead those who have been aroused to faith; next, to give believers assurance of their state of grace and salvation; next, to lead those who have become assured of this to sanctification of their lives; and lastly, to confirm the sanctified and to keep them in their holy and blessed state unto the end. What a task! A preeminent point that we must not forget is this: To achieve this task, it is especially necessary rightly to divide the truth, as the apostle says, or properly to divide the Law and the Gospel from each other. When a person does not understand how to do this and always mingles either doctrine into the other, his preaching is utterly futile, in vain. More than this, a preacher of this kind does harm and leads the souls of men astray; he leads them to a false faith, a false hope, a false contrition, makes them mere hypocrites, and frequently hurls them into despair. To divide Law and Gospel properly is a very, very difficult task. As Luther says, all preachers cannot but remain mere apprentices in this art until death. Nevertheless, a young theologian must be able to recite at least the first lesson in this curriculum. He must know the goal that he is to reach, and he must have made a start in reaching the goal. Walther, C. F. W., Dau, W. H. T., & Eckhardt, E. (2000). The proper distinction between law and gospel: 39 evening lectures (electronic ed.) (248–249). Saint Louis: Concordia Publishing House.
Louis Benoit (Louis) Intermediate Member Username: Louis Post Number: 279 Registered: 12-2010	Posted on Sunday, October 07, 2012 - 6:33 pm:       The idea that objective justification militates against justification through faith alone is based on pure confusion. Precisely the opposite is the case. Anyone who rejects objective justification rejects justification through faith alone. He may believe in justification because of faith, but he doesn't believe in justification through faith. If justification is through faith it must precede faith. Duh! This isn't rocket science. But Rydecki denies that justification precedes faith. Therefore it is he, not the WELS, that denies justification through faith alone. Intrepid Lutherans, my eye! [GJ - Get out the rack. Now! Celebrate the Reformation the old-fashioned way: burning Lutherans at the stake.]
Karl Pierson (Karl_pierson) Senior Member Username: Karl_pierson Post Number: 1590 Registered: 1-2009	Posted on Sunday, October 07, 2012 - 6:58 pm:       Well said, Louis. What a strange monster the Jacksonites have made of faith! Faith, and not *justification* by faith, has become their chief doctrine. And that will lead to Schleiermachian self-delusion, if not in them, then in their hearers. I pray that Rydecki recants and repents, for his own sake and for his sheep's sake. [GJ - Read the Cliff Notes on Schleiermacher? He was OJ, too, Mr. Anonymous Fake Name.]
Christian Schulz (Schulzcj) New member Username: Schulzcj Post Number: 1 Registered: 10-2012	Posted on Sunday, October 07, 2012 - 7:00 pm:       Justification is the imputation of Christ's righteousness to the sinner. How on earth is that objective, Louis? How was I imputed with Christ's righteousness prior to my God-given faith? Justification by faith alone is not rocket science. We are accounted righteous and holy when we receive faith from the Holy Spirit. Not hard. However, saying that the whole world has been justified (imputed with Christ's righteousness) prior to faith is ludicrous -- that is, if we're running with how Scripture and the Confessions define justification. This is simple, simple stuff -- sola fide, sola fide, sola fide. There is no other justification except the one and only justification and imputation of Christ's righteousness by faith alone.
Daniel Baker (Livinthehylife) New member Username: Livinthehylife Post Number: 6 Registered: 10-2011	Posted on Sunday, October 07, 2012 - 7:29 pm:       "If we want to be Dresden Lutherans, then we will teach justification by faith alone as the chief article of the Christian faith. The justification of the poor sinner before God is presented explicitly and quite exhaustively in the Lutheran Confessions (and by other 16th Century Lutheran theologians) as including four key components, without any of which the poor sinner is not, in any sense, justified before God: 1) the grace of God, 2) the merit of Christ, 3) the means of grace, and 4) faith in Christ. The Confessions do not speak of a sense in which all sinners have already been justified before God whether they believe in Christ or not, nor do I believe the Scriptures to teach such a thing, yet such is commonly heralded among Lutherans today as the “central teaching of the Bible.” I contend that our Dresden forefathers did not miss anything or take anything for granted in this chief article of the Christian faith. Forgiveness of sins, life and salvation were, indeed, won for all people by Christ on the cross, through His merit alone. But no one is forgiven, justified, made alive or saved apart from the means of grace and apart from faith in Christ, which is graciously worked by the Holy Spirit. Dresden Lutherans would never think of qualifying Luther’s battle cry, “Faith alone justifies!”, with “Yes, but, only in a subjective sense, since we know that all people are already justified without faith!" (Rev. Paul Rydecki, "Do We Want To Be Dresden Lutherans?", P.10).

6-20-2011 - email from Joe Krohn:

Most laity are not aware of this doctrine.  They have been lulled to sleep by it for some time now.  I went round and round with my dear mom last evening.  She is WELS.  She has a real skewed idea of how forgiveness works now…much different from what she taught us as kids.  Since OJ says that all are forgiven prior to faith and repentance, we must now forgive everyone regardless of if they are sorry or not.  Sound like ELCA?

Letter off to DP Glaeske and the Patterson cult tonite…hard certified copies in the mail tomorrow…

Keep up the fight!

---

Brett Meyer has left a new comment on your post "Warming Up the Tar and Feathers on LutherQuest. No...":

Following Joe Krohn's reconversion to Universal Justification Without Faith (UJWF) he has been twice the son of his father below in his name calling, rage and baseless accusations.

Dr. Cruz and I just completed another round with him on Extra Nos where Joe was trumpeting his singularly sourced universal reconciliation UOJ doctrine - which was firmly trounced by the Christian Book of Concord. Joe used a BOC sentence which bestowed both reconciliation and eternal salvation in the same sentence. He wants to apply the reconciliation to the whole world but not take responsibility for the eternal salvation (Universalism) caused by his taking the sentence out of context.

Discussion can be read here:

http://extranos.blogspot.com/2012/09/uojers-are-huberites-their-denials-are.html

With a chief doctrine like UOJ, who needs enemies. The doctrine is so entirely contradictory it practically defeats itself as long as the UOJists just keep talking.

---

David Becker has left a new comment on your post "Warming Up the Tar and Feathers on LutherQuest. No...":

I notice that on Lutherquest "Karl Pierson" (which I guess is a pseudonym) writes:

"From 'The Biblical Doctrine of Justification on One Page:'

"God credits the righteousness of Christ only to those who believe in Jesus, and thus justifies only those who believe in Jesus. (John 3:16-18, 36; Luke 18:14; Acts 13:39; Rom. 3:26; 4:5; 10:10; Gal. 2:16; Phil. 3:8-9)

"These are Paul Rydecki's words..."

What is wrong with Paul Rydecki's words there? Nothing.

---

Franz Linden (Franz_mann) Senior Member Username: Franz_mann Post Number: 1339 Registered: 12-2004

Posted on Sunday, October 07, 2012 - 8:04 pm:       Uh ohh! Here we go again. Actually, I am being a bit facitious. I think it important that we have this out every opportunity we get. So... Christian Schulz writes: There is no other justification except the one and only justification and imputation of Christ's righteousness by faith alone. By that statement, Mr. Schulz, you have just made your faith the object of your faith because, according to your statement, faith must precede justification. If faith precedes justification, it has nothing in which to believe except itself. It's not only unScriptural, which is most important, but it is also non-sensical. Faith is the passive reception of God's Gospel declaration that your sins are forgiven because the sins of the world were taken away when Christ bore them on the cross. To be forgiven is to be declared righteous. Your assertion turns faith upon itself by making it some legal thing that you must obtain before you can possess righteousness. So you must conclude, to be consistent, that your faith is the cause of your salvation and that salvation is not entirely by grace. We who cling to the doctrine of objective justification do not deny justification by grace through faith. Objective justification establishes it because it keeps the proper definition of faith, which, again, is the passive reception of God's declaration. If God didn't declare it, faith has nothing to receive.  Franz [GJ - Very David Scaer-like.]

Daniel Baker (Livinthehylife) New member Username: Livinthehylife Post Number: 7 Registered: 10-2011

Posted on Sunday, October 07, 2012 - 8:13 pm:       Hogwash. Faith clings to Christ and His merits. His all-sufficient obedience has obtained forgiveness, life, and salvation for all people. These certainly precede faith and are what faith receives. But in no blessed sense does this equate to the heresy of universal justification.

Karl Pierson (Karl_pierson) Senior Member Username: Karl_pierson Post Number: 1591 Registered: 1-2009

Posted on Sunday, October 07, 2012 - 8:19 pm:       "His all-sufficient obedience has obtained forgiveness, life, and salvation for all people." - Daniel Baker That is the definition of objective justification. [GJ - KP needs to study his own dogma better.]

Daniel Baker (Livinthehylife) New member Username: Livinthehylife Post Number: 8 Registered: 10-2011

Posted on Sunday, October 07, 2012 - 8:23 pm:       False. The definition of objective justification is that God "has declared [all sinners] righteous for the sake of Christ." There is a difference between Christ possessing forgiveness, life, and salvation for all men, and God making an ineffective declaration of righteousness for the reprobate. The former is biblical Christianity. The latter is a damnable heresy of the grossest sort.

Christian Schulz (Schulzcj) New member Username: Schulzcj Post Number: 2 Registered: 10-2012

Posted on Sunday, October 07, 2012 - 8:28 pm:       Faith relies on Christ as Mediator, the propitiation, the Mercy Seat, His merits -- all as Daniel said. I said faith is God-given. Faith is that thing which God declares to be righteous. (Ap IV, 89) How is it at all a work of man when FAITH IS GIVEN BY GOD? If anything "objective justification" makes an individual look inward to his faith. If my justification is no different than the heathen, damned, unbeliever next to me, then all I have is to look at myself, my good works, and my faith because we're all justified anyway -- there's no difference between me and the unbeliever...God forgave them too, even though the holy spirit never brought them to repentance and faith. "The very voice of the Gospel is this, that by faith (C.S. - in Christ as the Mediator and Mercy Seat) we obtain the remission of sins." (Ap XII, 2) The voice of the Gospel is not, "you're already forgiven, just believe it! And then go tell your unrepentant neighbor that he's righteous too!"

Louis Benoit (Louis) Intermediate Member Username: Louis Post Number: 280 Registered: 12-2010	Posted on Sunday, October 07, 2012 - 9:35 pm:       Here is what we Lutherans confess in the Augsburg Confession: Our churches also teach that men cannot be justified before God by their own strength, merits, or works but are freely justified for Christ’s sake through faith when they believe that they are received into favor and that their sins are forgiven on account of Christ, who by his death made satisfaction for our sins. This faith God imputes for righteousness in his sight (Rom. 3-4). Pay attention, Christian Schulz and Daniel Baker. Pay attention to the verb believe and the noun faith in order to learn what is the object of faith. According to AC IV men are freely justified through faith when they believe what? When they believe “that they are received into favor and that their sins are forgiven on account of Christ, who by his death made satisfaction for our sins.” This is what faith believes. It believes that we are received into favor and that our sins are forgiven on account of Christ, who by his death made satisfaction for our sins. When we speak of faith we are speaking of subjective justification. This faith God imputes for righteousness in his sight. What faith? The faith that believes that his sins are forgiven. “Are forgiven” is a reference to objective justification. There can be no subjective justification without a prior objective justification, for faith must have something to believe in. Anyone who denies objective justification denies justification by faith alone.
Franz Linden (Franz_mann) Senior Member Username: Franz_mann Post Number: 1340 Registered: 12-2004	Posted on Sunday, October 07, 2012 - 9:36 pm:       Mr. Schulz, How did God give faith? Through the Word, right? Right! What word? The Gospel. Faith is created by and believes the Gospel. If God only justifies the believer, then justification must be something apart from the Gospel because the Gospel most certainly precedes faith. But it's not. Justication (sic) is the Gospel, and the Gospel is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, and this faith comes by hearing the Gospel it believes. If it comes by hearing the Gospel it believes then the Gospel must precede faith which means that justification must precede faith because it is the Gospel which saves. Franz
Louis Benoit (Louis) Intermediate Member Username: Louis Post Number: 281 Registered: 12-2010	Posted on Sunday, October 07, 2012 - 9:37 pm:       What I am asking you two men to do is to take AC IV literally. It was crafted carefully and presents the biblical doctrine accurately. What does justifying faith believe? That's what you must consider. If you do so honestly, you will see that subjective justification requires objective justification.
Franz Linden (Franz_mann) Senior Member Username: Franz_mann Post Number: 1341 Registered: 12-2004	Posted on Sunday, October 07, 2012 - 9:48 pm:       Christian Schulz writes: The voice of the Gospel is not, "you're already forgiven, just believe it! And then go tell your unrepentant neighbor that he's righteous too!" On the contrary, Mr. Schulz, that's exactly the voice of the Gospel. Yes, even Hitler, and Stalin, and Saul of Tarsus, the chief of sinners, were **declared** righteous **(justified)**. The problem you are having is that you are fixated on the difference between you and your unrepentant neighbor. Faith doesn't look for a distinction, it looks for a promise - the very promise which brought it into existence: Your sins are forgiven! I'll tell you here what I said on the "Karl Pierson for President" thread: Stop telling me what Jesus did for me if I believe, and just tell me what Jesus did. Franz

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Relevant Links

LutherQuest (sic) Discussion -

http://ichabodthegloryhasdeparted.blogspot.com/2012/10/warming-up-tar-and-feathers-on.html

Martin Luther on the efficacy of the Word -

http://ichabodthegloryhasdeparted.blogspot.com/2012/05/blog-post.html

Robert Preus on Justification by Faith -

http://ichabodthegloryhasdeparted.blogspot.com/2011/05/robert-preus-justification-by-faith_7573.html

The Biblical View of Faith -

http://ichabodthegloryhasdeparted.blogspot.com/2012/09/the-biblical-view-of-faith-contradicts.html

Review of Rydecki Translation of Hunnius -

http://ichabodthegloryhasdeparted.blogspot.com/2012/09/book-review-of-theses-opposed-to.html

The Dresden Catechism -

http://ichabodthegloryhasdeparted.blogspot.com/2012/07/dresden-why-does-everything-happen-in.html