bored has left a new comment on your post "Birds We Love To Watch - Check Out the Beaks":
Daniel: No doubt about the Efficacy of the Word.
What I'm doubting is the divine-ness of the so-called divine call...in the way the WELS and LCMS are accustomed to doing it. My question wasn't about what the pastor guild teaches, but whether or not they are, based on the idea of a "divine call", legit?
I'm completely uncomfortable with people conniving to get what they want and then claiming it was God's decision, regarding a call or anything else. When St Marcus, for example, decided to build a four million dollar school building, the general attitude was "Oh it must be God's will because the congregation decided it". To me, that's hubris.
But I'm wondering if that wouldn't apply for any pastor? If a call is called Divine, I would think the pastor should not have a choice except to go, since it's from God. And if the current way we do Calls is actually Biblical, I'd be curious to see some Biblical basis for it--where in the New Testament do pastors look into real estate prices before heeding the call of the Holy Spirit?
And if that is the case I think it'd be better to call a call the 'Somewhat-divine-request-for-service-with-a-competitive-benefits-package."...Or maybe I'm totally ignorant of what the Call is, but I haven't been convinced by the proof passages given me thus far.
***
GJ - The call is a legal contract, but congregations think they can break it at will, with the help and advice of other pastors, the Circuit Pussycat or the District Pussycat.
The religious promises are often broken with alacrity, showing their utter lack of respect for the call they issued and signed.
The results are in - congregations are folding, pastors are quitting, and parsonage children do not want to be in church vocations.
---
MLC_Student has left a new comment on your post "Questions about the Call":
Just throwing this out there:
I hate how the WELS puts teachers on a pedestal and above pastors. I've experienced teachers receiving more respect than pastors. As far as I understand, the pastor is the only divinely instituted office yet the teachers are put on equal level with them.
Some congregations don't understand that schools are a branch of the church. And when they treat the church as an branch of the school there's going to be problems.
***
GJ - WELS has weird ideas about teachers. They often serve as pastor-subs, even for communion, and a number of pastors are teachers - for various reasons.
Ordaining teachers for tax reasons - only WELS would think of that.
My experience in teaching at two online schools is very positive. The students are very respectful. Big corporations feel constrained by the law and by common sense. When I sent a letter to an oversight committee about a university problem, it was answered. Several governing board members talked to me as well. The result was a formal apology. They would never have ignored criminal behavior or refused to respond to it. Instead they took care of it at once. Church leaders are not bright enough or honest enough to do the same.
I had to deal with two university staffers who were not qualified to supervise more than a homecoming. I knew their arrogance would catch up with them in a few months, and it did. They were temporary annoyances.
---
bruce-church (http://bruce-church.myopenid.com/) has left a new comment on your post "Questions about the Call":
About refusing calls...What you won't find in the doctrinal books but you will find in practice is there's two types of call: the first call that you can't refuse, and later calls that you can refuse. It's said that you have to weigh one call against the other, but if you don't already have a call, then it's clear what God's will is, and so you must take that first call.
***
GJ - No, Bruce. There are two kinds of calls: a) Church and Change calls (or the equivalent). b) Ordinary calls.
There are two calls at a time for Bivens or Kelm. Those are Church and Change calls.
There are no calls for most, because there is a shortage of calls. Questions? Don't let the door hit you on the way out.
---
rlschultz has left a new comment on your post "Questions about the Call":
I think that the best way to describe the divine call in the WELS is a divine call, with a lot of human intervention, mostly from the DP. Until you understand that blood is thicker than anything else in the WELS, a lot of this business with calls just seems to not fit. Why is it that a congregation must go to the DP for a call list? Why does the DP decide who is on the list? The standard answer is that the DP has inside knowledge. Well, that he does. The knowledge to know who gets the C&C calls, and who gets the plain calls. Recently, a pastor in my circuit received a call. What crossed my mind was that either his present call has members who complain to the DP or he has stepped on the wrong toes and the call was extended to let him know who is boss. About 15 years ago, I asked a teacher if they had anything at (D)MLC on the doctrine of the call. Her answer was resounding no. It always just seems so fishy to me. But, it must be right because of the WELS doctrine of leadership infallibility.
---
LutherRocks has left a new comment on your post "Questions about the Call":
Holy Spirit room...man I don't quite know how to take that one. Knowing WELS satiric duplicity, I'll put the best construction on that one.
Being on the laymen side of the call process all these years, certainly we do things in prayerful consideration...but really...to be pragmatic about it all...at times it felt more like a placement service. And I think this side of Heaven that is maybe how it is in the visible church, but I won't deny the Divine Call in that God does call men to be His servants of the Word.
***
GJ - Michigan DP Robert Mueller explained that he did not tell congregations that they were getting an adulterer, because, he whined, "Then they will not call him."
The layman at that meeting was aghast. He could not believe the DP lied to congregations about something so important.
Later, Mueller complained about the new demand for paperwork to prove that his pastors were not sex offenders. That was after a young girl (a minor) won a lawsuit because Fred Adrian's married vicar had an affair with her in the guise of counseling her.
DP John Seifert welcomed Adrian back into the ministerium with a part-time call. Remember that when the offering plate is passed around for "reaching out with the Gospel."
