1580 Has Upgraded His Identity

UOJ promotes Fuller Seminary,
and Fuller Seminary teaches UOJ.

FC Ep V has left a new comment on your post "Quashing Justification by Faith - Bivens of the Sa...":

I changed my profile name. I used to be "1580" and now I am the following.

In my experience, there are some who still try to stick to the terms of UOJ yet still say that we receive the Spirit (forgiveness of sins, salvation, etc.) through the Means of Grace. To me, these are the conservatives.

At the same time, there are those, who, in their pastoral theology, teach that all are forgiven before repentance and the Means of Grace (which is of course pure Enthusiasm). With this teaching it degrades the Means of Grace and opens the door to a pure Calvanistic thinking of the Means of Grace (just a remembrance and symbol of what happened 2,000 years ago)

If it were up to me, I would do away with the terms UOJ (to prevent confusion) and just stick to how the BIBLE (yes I capitalized that on my own) and the Confessions speak. Luther warned against using the language of Philosophers to teach the laymen. Because of UOJ it has led us to Calvinism (just a remembrance of the forgiveness of sins already distributed at Calvary) or at best it says that Objective Justification is the Atonement. Either way it's a dangerous way to speak, in my opinion. I say that we should stick to how the Bible teaches and how the Confessions speak of Justification.

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GJ - UOJ is clever, three different ways, because "Error loves ambiguities."

A - Those who know what it really means are quite smug in their elitism and they protect their turf.

B  - Those who read the Book of Concord, Gerhard, Chemnitz, and Luther can easily assume that OJ is just another term for the atonement. The Stormtroopers do not mind, because ultimately terms shape thoughts. That is why we say such silly things as "chairperson" and "people of different abilities."

C - Many laity and clergy do not know the great theologians at all, so they do not realize the scam. If they feel uneasy, they lack the tools to show what is wrong with UOJ.

That is why the Stormtroopers blow up when someone examines what they are really teaching. The best thing to do is make them defend their Biblical passages, which fall apart faster than locust exoskeletons left behind on a tree.

Clearly, the Olde Synodical Conference teaches Huberism, a heresy. Even with access to all this material, they continue to defend and promote their favorite false doctrine.

B. Teigen, one of their own, carefully examined how the Synodical Conference adopted the heretical position on the Lord's Supper. How did they respond? WELS and the Little Sect on the Prairie beat him like a rented mule.

No wonder people are flocking to leave Schwan's lapdogs behind.

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Brett Meyer has left a new comment on your post "1580 Has Upgraded His Identity":

Can a person still be considered a conservative Lutheran when churches in their fellowship excommunicate Christians faithful to Scripture and the Lutheran Confessions regarding the central doctrine of Christian faith - Justification by Faith Alone?

Mark Jeske and Time of Grace make a mockery of the (W)ELS confession and everyone sighs. Jeske and the ELCA tell everyone to Change or Die and they all just look away.

Call them what you want but when they stand silently within the Fellowship while Christ's Church is persecuted by that Fellowship then they are not conservative.

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GJ - Brett, beatings will continue until morale improves.

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FC Ep V has left a new comment on your post "1580 Has Upgraded His Identity":

I agree. When it comes down to it "liberal" or "extremist" UOJ-ers can't be tolerated. Especially when people like Joe Krohn and and the lawyer from Appleton were excommunicated on an unscriptural basis.

I guess when I speak of "conservative" UOJ-ers I mean those who, in their heart confess Justification by faith alone, but still try to use the terms "Universal" or "Objective" when defining that. I think this comes from WELS' insistence on using those terms, which lead to a layman's confusion and ultimate demise. (I've had many discussions with WELS' layman who have been taught to adhere to the terms "UOJ." When we get into a deep discussion it is exposed that they, in their heart, adhere to Justification by faith alone. So again, I say that these terms should be deleted for the sake of the Church.)

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GJ - Because the term Objective Justification really means universal absolution, OJ should be abandoned and rejected and repudiated - no excuses. No one is required to use false and misleading terms from false doctrine. Galatians 1:8 was the motto of the Reformation - "even if an angel from heaven..." and we know synod leaders are not angels.

In fact, one WELS loyalist agreed with me that DPs and their minions are unbelievers in their words and actions. Why submit to those who go through the motions to keep their salaries, benefits, and Thrivent funded perks?

From 1580 - The UOJ Enthusiasts Do Not Even Think Like the Concordists

1580 has left a new comment on your post "Quashing Justification by Faith - Bivens of the Sa...":

I meant, "They [the UOJ Enthusiasts] don't speak in the terms or even ideas of [The Book of Concord]. That's what I meant to say.

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GJ - UOJ is an alien philosophy, and it cannot be harmonized with justification by faith. Mequon Mordor has already given away their game by putting warning labels on justification by faith passages, endorsing the feminist-UOJ NNIV, and seeing all ministry as defined by Fuller Seminary, Craig Groeschel, Peter Drucker, and Andy Stanley.

They are antagonistic about faith while abusing the term. That is because they look to Walther, who only had a bachelor's degree from a rationalistic university, as the greatest theolgian of the Lutheran Church. In contrast, Luther earned a doctorate in Biblical studies and was already a supervisor of monasteries before the Reformation began.

Walther was the equivalent of Paul McCain, a paucity of academic training and parish experience, a surplus of ambition. No wonder the copy and paste blogger defends Walther with such venom.

Walther's double-talk is widely copied today, so it must be effective. Stephan's son was a "Judas" for returning to Dresden to help and comfort his ailing mother. But Walther could visit the fleshpots of Europe to glory in his unethical and felonious usurpation.

Quashing Justification by Faith - Bivens of the Sausage Factory - Another Fuller Alumnus

Bivens and Valleskey always networked.
Both went to Fuller and denied it.
Both are UOJ advocates.

AC V has left a new comment on your post "Caution! Caution! - Ignore the Clear Justification...":

Wisconsin Lutheran Seminary (WELS) professors sure are allergic to even a hint of justification by faith. Here's Forrest Bivens cautioning readers to a statement Adolf Hoenecke made in his commentary on Quenstedt's view of Christ's righteousness:

He says that the imputation is so powerful that through it the sinner is considered righteous before God's judgment just as if he had rendered the obedience himself (or, just as if he had done it himself). This thought he then develops in this way: The essence of imputation is a real assessment, which absolves the sinning man who believes in Christ [N.B.: this could be misleading] from all his sins before the divine tribunal and actually ascribes to him in a judicial way the righteousness of Christ. - (Hoenecke III, pp 344-345, English edition pp 328-329)

"Getting The Right Message Out – And Getting It Out The Right Way With Special Emphasis on Public Worship and Classroom Instruction" By Forrest L. Bivens; Prepared for and delivered to the Pastor-Teacher-Delegate meeting of the Ohio Conference of the Michigan District on January 20, 2003 in Cincinnati, OH.

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AC V has left a new comment on your post "Caution! Caution! - Ignore the Clear Justification...":

Now I don't know if Bivens' "[N.B.: this could be misleading]" is quoting Hoenecke or Meyer, Hoenecke's student. Either way, it seems the "cautions" to justification by faith alone just keep getting passed on generation after generation.

Brett Meyer - Interesting Paul McCain Link

Paul McCain - All hat, no cattle.

Brett Meyer has left a new comment on your post "Complete Rough Draft of Chapter Four - Luther vers...":

The link to McCain's rant on the ALPB forum is a good read. His persistance in undermining the account combined with the lack of addressing the facts and sources presented in the book is pathetic.

There's something to how he gushes with delight over Pope worshipping Nuehaus, is overjoyed at gaining a seat at the Antichrists table and fitfully attacks revelations concerning the American Pope. Begs the question if there's jesuit types in the Lutheran Synods.

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boc1580@gmail.com

Posted by Rev. Paul T. McCain at May 16, 2010 16:57
Pastor Sauer, why do are you assuming that the information being relayed by those trying to salvage Stephan is accurate, factual and true? It doesn't do much for the credibility of the ALPB to be promoting this stuff.

I have examined the voluminous amount of evidence in the Concordia Historical Institute about the theological and moral failings of Stephan, and, to say the least, it is facile to suggest that he was the "victim" of the seal of the confessional being broken. The lie that the Saxons only knew of Stephan's infidelity because what was allegedly "confessed" has been spread by certain ALPB board members for some years.

He was a corrupt bishop, unfaithful to his wife, and left his followers, literally, struggling for their lives on a frontier he promised them would be a sort of Lutheran utopia.
[GJ - Walther and Company robbed Stephan of all his money after the Society failed to run its finances well. The approximately 4000 gold coins went a long way toward bailing them out. Walther also stole the 40 acres of land given to Stephan - by stealth, of course. After robbing Stephan, threatening him, and kidnapping him at gunpoint, the Saxons left him seriously ill in a hovel with $100 cash and a few tools "to make his living." They made out like bandits because they were.]

The best thing that ever happened was when he was sent packing across the river. Walther and other repented of their sin of abandoning their calls and congregations in Germany, and realized that they had been misled by Stephan.

I'd caution you against buying into the "Stephan flat earth society" types who are attempting to put forward a mythical Stephan.

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BOC1580@gmail.com

Posted by Rev. Paul T. McCain at May 18, 2010 13:00

Again, I would respectfully challenge your assumption that the "history" you are reading it, in fact, true, objective, complete and accurate. I would prefer to regard the accounts, reports, records and history that we have on the issues surrounding Stephan, written by eye-witnesses, to be much more reliable than the ex post facto explanations of those now attempting to portray Stephan as treated wrongly, unfairly and, as you say, with "duplicity." 

Let's take but one small example. It calls for a great deal of credulity (that's a word, right?) to accept the assertion that Stephan personally owned a jewel encrusted chalice and it was "stolen" from him by Walther and company. 

[GJ - Ludwig Fuerbringer wrote that Stephan was given one chalice - personally - and that it was still being used by Walther's old congregation, Trinity. Ownership and theft - proven.]

You continue to assert the "seal of the confessional" was broken. I challenge that assertion. The documentation I've read indicates that the women involved in the adulterous behavior by Stephan spoke of this behavior privately to others, and it was not simply a matter of a sacramental confession/absolution being divulged. 

I know how important, even necessary it is, for the ALPB to posture itself as a source of "objective" history of The LCMS, but I think we all know better than that. 

Simply put, I find this effort now to attack Walther and other LCMS fathers as being the perpetrators of evil against Stephan to be more than a little disingenuous, and predicated a lot of speculation, conjecture, rumor and reporting of half-truths. 

Am I really to believe that a descendant of Stephan is capable of providing objective historical analysis with full, complete unbiased documentation for all his assertions? 

Perhaps, to demonstrate good faith in its call for "repentance," the ALPB could own up to its complicity in the underhanded, deceptive tactics used by Tietjen and his inner circle in trying to foist on The LCMS the myths that what was going on in the classrooms at Concordia Seminary during the Seminex era was simply a matter of "fundamentalism" taking hold in the Synod. Perhaps the ALPB would be willing to repent of its covering up the truth of what happened then, in its complicity in advancing falsehoods, half-truths and simply lies about what was actually being taught? I would find that gesture to be a demonstration of the ALPB's willingness to do more than take potshots at The LCMS. 

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BOC1580@gmail.com

Posted by Rev. Paul T. McCain at May 20, 2010 12:30

I have now had a chance to read through major portions of the book, from which, apparently LUTHERAN FORUM will be publishing excerpts. It is a book that was self-published by a retired psychologist, a descendant of Walther. It's only endorsement comes from a United Church of Christ minister, with a blurb on the back cover. 

The web site listed in the article is run by another Walther descendant ,a radical feminist lesbian composer and amateur theologian of some sort of another. Why do I mention this? Every assertion must be weighed and evaluated on its own merits, but it is also important to recognize the worldview bring brought to anyone's particular presentation of an issue. 

[GJ - Paul McCain is neither a pastor nor a theologian, but he fashions himself as both. He was in charge of the Concordia Historical Institute, but he has no regard for the facts. He does not mention that one Stephan descendant was a Lutheran Hour speaker, quite a honor for anyone.]

Based on my reading of this self-published book, and review of the web site forum, and other web sites associated with Dr. Stephan, see, for example: lifemissionassociates.com There we read that Dr. Stephan is: "a passionate advocate of inclusive texts, and texts written with a Lesbian- and gay-friendly perspective." We also learn that the artist: 

"uses a wide range of themes, from celebration of the Vagina (Ave Pudendum) to a new choral Cantata written with the help of a grant from the Thanks Be to Grandmother Foundation, Mater in Memoriam, for SSAA and Chamber Ensemble, or for SSAA and Piano. This piece is noteworthy as it treats the mother-daughter relationship from a Lesbian perspective, while maintaining a universal appeal for non gay audiences." 

In other words, I doubt we can expect to find any sympathy for the orthodox, confessing Lutheranism that Stephan and Walther both wanted to promote from sources like this. Which makes me wonder how objective their analysis and scholarship actually is? 

I would simply say that the kind of "evidence" marshaled in the book is very much biased, tilted toward trying to prove what has already been assumed as fact, and makes use of what are frankly, quite dubious sources, a lot of hear-say evidence, that is all every bit as unreliable as any hagiography of Walther that ALPB rightly eschews. 

[GJ - The evidence discounted by McCain is primary evidence, actual documents in the possession of his previous employer, the Concordia Historical Institute. Historians treasure primary documents, but McCain is not a historian.]

I'm surprised ALPB would actually provide a platform for this kind of truly second-rate "scholarship," contained in the book and the frankly quite bizarre musings from the web site, and the web site owner. 

Honestly, as I look through the pages of a certain Missouri-based weekly newspaper, I am accustomed to seeing this kind of axe-grinding conspiracy-theorizing that one finds routinely in that publication. I am surprised to see ALPB indulging in what is little more than the same. I would have thought ALPB might have considered having the purported "scholarship" being offered to be peer reviewed carefully by reputable and knowledgeable experts in the history of the Saxon immigration. 

[GJ - The Perry County LCMS shrine claims, as Herman Otten's grandson wrote, that Stephan was given three choices upon his adultery being discovered. He was given no choices, pronounced guilty by a kangaroo court set up by Walther, robbed and kidnapped - forced to leave the state. The LCMS founders committed many felonies, and Walther led them.]

Disappointing, is an understatement.

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BOC1580@gmail.com

Posted by Rev. Paul T. McCain at May 20, 2010 15:11

Pr. Sauer, at the risk of repeating myself: My opinion of the "sources" cited is that they are more along the lines of rumor, gossip, hear-say and other heavily biased accounts of the events, obviously aiming at painting the actions of Walther and company in the worst possible light, and Stephan as the persecuted victim. That is what I meant when I stated that the "evidence" presented in the book is "very much biased, tilted toward trying to prove what has already been assumed as fact, and making use of frankly, quite dubious sources, a lot of hear-say evidence" the sources and evidence strike me as unreliable as any hagiography of Walther that ALPB rightly eschews. 

While you perceive my reporting of the background and positions of the persons writing a book and hosting a web site to be an "attack" I would simply restate that I believe that it is important to, consider the sources, of the information ALPB is apparently so interested in promoting and pushing. 

It strikes me as more than a little disconcerting that the ALPB would be promoting the work of a person who composes this kind of choral piece: http://www.naomimusic.com/pages/order/yeltonRhodes.php 

I believe it is worth evaluating a person's interests, passions and worldview as one evaluates their (sic) credentials to speak knowledgeably, objectively and fairly on the matter of Martin Stephan.

[GJ - Paul McCain, who lied about working secretly with Herman Otten, will teach the ALPB about being honest, fair, objective, and Evangelical.]

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BOC1580@gmail.com

Posted by Rev. Paul T. McCain at June 20, 2010 09:38 The problem, Pastor Peters, is that while the book may be a "good read" it is sloppy scholarship, putting forward a bunch of rumors and speculations, with a bundle of hearsay evidence, asserting things that simply are not true.

And Lutheran Forum's complicity in promoting shoddy scholarship and endorsing a book, and a web site, run by a person whose credibility is nill is an unfortunate choice on their part.

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Stephan History Posted by Pastor Peters at June 21, 2010 21:33 BTW the person who called me up and told me it was a gotta read book was David Scaer!

Concordia Lutheran Church founder Merkens dies - San Antonio Express-News

Guido Merkens, one of the megachurch pastors in the LCMS.

Concordia Lutheran Church founder Merkens dies - San Antonio Express-News:

Pastor Guido Merkens, who founded the city's largest Lutheran church and served there for more than four decades, died Wednesday night surrounded by his family.

He was 84.

Merkens came to San Antonio in 1951 to establish the city's first Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod congregation.

Concordia Lutheran Church became the largest congregation in the denomination under his tenure, and continues to be among its biggest nationwide.

Merkens was born in South Dakota, the son of a pastor who moved his family to Pittsburgh for ministry assignments.

As a young man, Merkens delivered groceries, loaded boxcars on trains, drove school buses and was a bartender.

He studied at the University of Pittsburgh; Concordia University in Bronxville, N.Y.; and Concordia Seminary and Washington University in St. Louis.

He was ordained in St. Louis on Sept. 9, 1951, and was sent to start a congregation in San Antonio.

“I knew he wanted to go to a place and start a church from scratch, not reap the benefits of something that was already established,” said the Rev. Bill Tucker, Concordia's current senior pastor. “Clearly the Holy Spirit planted that seed in him.”

The mission church began in an area near Basse and Blanco roads with 37 members.

To Merkens, a former baseball standout, incorporating athletics into the church was imperative, so Concordia Lutheran built an air conditioned gymnasium in 1960.

“They come to play, they stay to pray,” many recall Merkens saying.

The congregation grew to 4,000 members under his leadership. It's now located on a nearly 50-acre complex on Loop 1604 and Huebner Road and has more than 6,000 members.

Merkens was regarded as a church growth expert and conducted hundreds of seminars on that topic around the nation and in 14 countries.

The author of seven books, he also was vice president of the denomination for 15 years.

In 1993, he announced he would “reposition” into other areas of ministry at the church and prepare for his successor.

The Rev. William G. Thompson took over as senior pastor in 1994 and led the congregation to its current location. Tucker succeeded Thompson in 2001.

All the while, Merkens continued to support the church and other ministries.

“He never saw himself as actually being retired,” Tucker recalled. “He saw himself as being transitioned into other parts of ministry.”

After he left the church, Merkens devoted his time to consulting and speaking at conferences as an associate with Pathway Lutheran Ministries.

Read more: http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/local_news/article/Minister-founded-N-Side-landmark-2499537.php#ixzz1jP2Gm1VC

'via Blog this' --- Gratuitous note from ELCA pastor/WELS pal: "I'm sure that you came across this obit. Will wait for you to share the true story complete with all the dirty little secrets that the LCMS covers up."

Pipe organ the pride and joy of Faith Lutheran - Carthage, MO - Carthage Press

Pipe organ the pride and joy of Faith Lutheran - Carthage, MO - Carthage Press:

CARTHAGE, Mo. —

If you ask Tim and Sarah Buelow to count the 2011 blessings for them and their church, the Faith Lutheran pastor and his wife would undoubtedly list pipe organ among them.

Although delivery of the two-story Bosch Pipe Organ was made to the Carthage church last September and fine tuning continues to take place, excitement over the new addition has yet to fade.



“There are 1,300 pipes and each pipe has to be individually voiced with a couple of adjustments,” the Rev. Buelow said. “The man making the adjustments was called back to his electrical engineering job at Michigan State University, so he comes back when he can.”

Very few people are qualified to do the fine tuning.

“Up until the end of the 19th century, a pipe organ like this was the most advanced piece of engineering that man had invented,” Buelow said. “When you think about all these connections and interwoven pieces, it is just an engineering marvel.”

Sarah Buelow, who serves as the church organist, agrees.

“It is like having a live orchestra instead of just an electronic one like we have had,” she said. “The pipe organ is much more inspiring. It is like getting live feedback, whereas with the electronic organ I don’t get any feedback and don’t know what my audience is hearing. I can hear the pipes talking to me.”

She added that while most churches are going away from organs, there has been a bit of a renaissance with pipe organs.

“We have suggested  that the Carthage Chamber of Commerce put this on its list of local destinations because as a tracker organ this is unique,” she said.

Faith Lutheran bought the organ from Redeemer Lutheran Church in Flint, Mich.

To say the Buelows were overjoyed at getting such a musical marvel would be a huge understatement.

“The pastor at that Michigan church said the organ had been on their insurance policy for $750,000 and all we had to pay was $25,000 for the organ and $25,000 to have it moved and installed,” the Rev. Buelow said.

The organ was made in Kassel, Germany, in 1971 and bought directly from that site by Redeemer Lutheran parishioners, who were looking for the best quality German-made organ they could find.

“Organs can last 300-plus years and this one is only about 40 years old,” Buelow said. “When you combine this engineering marvel of all of these wonderful things that God gave us in creation and the agility that God gave the human mind, you have something to give praise back to God.”

'via Blog this'

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raklatt (http://raklatt.myopenid.com/) has left a new comment on your post "Pipe organ the pride and joy of Faith Lutheran - C...":

The biggest concern might be the difference in climate between Flint, MI, and Carthage, MO. Once the tracker mechanism adjusts to the differences and the fellow from MSU finishes tweaking, Faith should have a fine instrument.

Trackers do give feedback to the organist though they may require a bit more effort than electrical keyboard systems. Pushing down a key operates the mechanical linkage that opens the valve at the foot of a pipe along with others if couplers are in use. The leverage of the linkage is such that some strength is required.

The system is very similar to that which must have been in use in Luther's time.

A good organ is the best instrument to lead a congregation in song.

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GJ - Yes, an organ is ideal for the support of hymns. That is why the Emergents want a rock band instead. An organist must have talent, training, and experience. A rock band just makes noise with percussion instruments. My college students conceded that orchestra musicians can play rock - and some do. But very few rock stars would last five minutes in an orchestra. To demonstrate, I screamed and did a loud TWANG on my air guitar. I said, "How much talent does that take?" The students loved it and asked for a repeat.

Next week I had Mr. Bose play them Pachebel's Canon. They were transfixed and wrote down the name of the piece.

Pietism and Methodism « Churchmouse Campanologist

Wesley and Zinzendorf

Pietism and Methodism « Churchmouse Campanologist:


"John Wesley and the Moravians


At Oxford in 1729, John Wesley’s brother Charles, George Whitefield and other students formed a society called the Holy Club. John Wesley, older and by then ordained in the Anglican Church, had already begun devoting his life to the pursuit of holiness."


'via Blog this'


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GJ - C. F. W. Walther belonged to a Holy Club at Leipzig, but he left that Pietistic circle for Stephan's Pietistic circle.


The Saxon migration was a Pietistic enterprise, not Lutheran orthodoxy at all.


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churchmousec (http://churchmousec.wordpress.com/) has left a new comment on your post "Pietism and Methodism « Churchmouse Campanologist":

Thank you very much, Dr Jackson, for the mention and for the priceless illustration of Wesley and Count von Zinzendorf together -- brilliant!

If it hadn't been for your writing about pietism, I would probably have ignored it.

Many thanks!

Churchmouse

Pro-Life Message

More than 24 years ago, Pam and her husband Bob were serving as missionaries to the Philippines and praying for a fifth child. Pam contracted amoebic dysentery, an infection of the intestine caused by a parasite found in contaminated food or drink. She went into a coma and was treated with strong antibiotics before they discovered she was pregnant. 


Doctors urged her to abort the baby for her own safety and told her that the medicines had caused irreversible damage to her baby. She refused the abortion and cited her Christian faith as the reason for her hope that her son would be born without the devastating disabilities physicians predicted. Pam said the doctors didn't think of it as a life, they thought of it as a mass of fetal tissue. 


While pregnant, Pam nearly lost their baby four times but refused to consider abortion. She recalled making a pledge to God with her husband: If you will give us a son, we’ll name him Timothy and we’ll make him a preacher. 


Pam ultimately spent the last two months of her pregnancy in bed and eventually gave birth to a healthy baby boy August 14, 1987. Pam’s youngest son is indeed a preacher. He preaches in prisons, makes hospital visits, and serves with his father’s ministry in the Philippines. He also plays football. 


Pam’s son is Tim Tebow.

Virtue Online Uses Ichabod Photoshop with Jefferts-Schori Interview Posted from Issues Etc

Ichabod Photoshop and Witty Label:
Episcopal Presiding Bishop Katharine Jefferts Schori

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GJ - It gives me great satisfaction to find my graphics being used elsewhere. No credit is expected. No permission is required. Not that long ago an ELCA-bishop-as-Satan graphic made its way to the bishop's staff. The bishop's staffmembers were not amused.


I have followed Virtue Online for several years. I have written to David Virtue, a man who follows the legal and doctrinal issues, reporting them carefully. He added his comments to the interview with the notation VOL. That will give readers a better perspective on the Bishop Kate disaster.


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Episcopal Presiding Bishop Spins Church and Its Future

The following interview with Katharine Jefferts Schori took place on Lutheran Public Radio withIssues, Etc. hosted by Todd Wilkens 

By David W. Virtue
www.virtueonline.org 
January 10, 2012

TODD WILKEN Issues, Etc. Host: They have been busy in the last decade or so. They say they have been listening to the "Voice of God" ... first back in the '70s they were among the first of the Protestant denominations to ordain women to the priesthood. Within the last decade they approved the ordination of active homosexuals - lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgendered persons -- and they have made an active and partnered gay man a bishop in one of their dioceses - Gene Robinson. So they have made the news. Why and where is The Episcopal Church headed especially with its relationship with worldwide Anglicanism? Joining us this Wednesday afternoon, January the fourth, to talk about the intersections of faith with issues like poverty, climate change and the economy is Bishop Katharine Jefferts Schori. She is the Presiding Bishop of The Episcopal Church USA and author of the news book "The Heartbeat of God: Finding the Sacred in the Middle of Everything." Bishop Jefferts Schori, welcome to Issues, Etc.

WILKEN: What do you mean by that phrase "Heartbeat of God"? 

JEFFERTS SCHORI: That's how I've talked about our understanding of God's "mission" to heal the world and that when people-of-faith are engaged in that work they're participating in the lively creativity of God. 

VOL: What and where exactly is TEC healing the world? Pouring its limited resources into Haiti (largely into a cathedral) is a pittance compared to what agencies like World Vision Inc., Food for the Poor and multiple evangelically based organizations are doing in that country. Most congregations in TEC are now in double digits with the average age in the mid 60s. They are running out of time and money and they are more engaged in getting Medicare and Social Security than "healing the world." Those socially (read sexually) engaged are pushing the LGBTQI agenda with liberal bishops led by Jefferts Schori and her compliant HOB getting in the faces of dioceses like South Carolina to make them conform to their agenda.

WILKEN: On that issue of "people-of-faith" the subtitle of the book is "Finding the Sacred in the Middle of Everything." so it might sound to some like pantheism. Do you believe that the "sacred", as you define it, is found in all religions?

JEFFERTS SCHORI: Yes, I think it probably is. We're not pantheists, many Episcopalians might be understood to as "panentheists". The difference being that pantheists see everything as God and panentheists see God reflected in all of God's creation. When we talk about human beings being made in the image of God that's a piece of what we are talking about and we would extend that to all of creation. 

VOL: So Episcopalians are now panentheists. Really. Panentheism is a belief system, which posits that God exists, interpenetrates every part of nature and timelessly extends beyond it. While pantheism believes that God is the whole; in panentheism, the whole is in God. In panentheism, God is viewed as the eternal animating force behind the universe. Some versions suggest that the universe is nothing more than the manifest part of God. In some forms of panentheism, the cosmos exists within God, who in turn "pervades" or is "in" the cosmos. Panentheism claims that God is greater than the universe. Much Hindu thought is highly characterized by panentheism and pantheism. Theism, on the other hand, conceives of God as personal, present and active in the governance and organization of the world and the universe but is distinct from it. Episcopalians, by and large, that is those who have not completely lost their minds believing what Jefferts Schori, Jack Spong, William Countryman and Mott the Hoople are still orthodox in their faith. For a full and complete analysis of Jefferts Schori's book read Sarah Francis Ives, Ph. D. two articles here: http://tinyurl.com/83ndbph and here:http://tinyurl.com/7nhuupx

WILKEN: But you contrast, or appear to contrast Jesus of Nazareth with the Christ of generations and millennia to come. Is there is difference of the "Jesus of Nazareth' and "the Christ of generations and millennia to come"? 

JEFFERTS SCHORI: Christians would understand both terms. Non-Christians would not necessarily. Jesus as a human figure is someone about Whom Muslims can speak and understand and certainly recognize and revere. And people of other faith traditions would as well. They're not going to have access or interest in "the Christ of millennia to come" the way that Christians do.

VOL: Separating the Jesus of History from the Christ of Faith is an old saw. The truth is there is no dichotomy between the Christ of Faith and the Jesus of History. Anglican theologian N.T. Wright In his book Jesus and the Victory of God, Christian Origins and the Question of God, Volume 2, says that the historical Jesus is very much the Jesus of the gospels: a first century Palestinian Jew who announced and inaugurated the kingdom of God, performed "mighty works" and believed himself to be Israel's Messiah who would save his people through his death and resurrection. "He believed himself called," in other words says Wright, "to do and be what, in the Scriptures, only Israel's God did and was." So you have a choice dear readers, believe what Jefferts Schori says or N.T. Wright.

WILKEN: You talk about hearing the "Voice of God"; I think you devote a whole chapter to it. Where is The Episcopal Church USA today hearing the Voice of God? 

JEFFERTS SCHORI: OK, let me correct that. We are not The Episcopal Church in the USA. We're The Episcopal Church in 16 different nations including the United States. So we're certainly hearing the Voice of God and meeting God in Ecuador and Honduras and Venezuela and Taiwan and in Europe, as well as we are in the United States. There is an ancient understanding that God is met, perhaps most intensely in the poor and the marginalized. I know that St. Francis [of Assisi] called the poor "our treasure"; and that when we encounter the poor the marginalized, we're more likely to meet Jesus, we're more likely to see God present with us in the midst of suffering as well as joy. VOL: Prior to the year of our Lord 2006 (when Jefferts Schori was consecrated) no Presiding Bishop touted TEC's offshore ecclesiastical holdings, but with the rise of the Global South and Mrs. Jefferts Schori's face offs with Dr. Rowan Williams, she has pushed this handful of "overseas" Episcopalians to let the whole Anglican world know that she has some muscle and must be reckoned with even as TEC innovates over sexuality issues and its fortunes sink. It no doubt gives her a feeling of power. For the record TEC has a total of 487 churches in "foreign" dioceses and territories, with an overall ASA of 11,258. There are single churches almost as big as this. St. Martins Episcopal Church in Houston has 7,812 baptized members and nearly 3,000 ASA.

WILKEN: What then is The Episcopal Church hearing in that Voice of God?

JEFFERTS SCHORI: A call to attend to the people on the margins as well as creation that is being abused. Our work, as part of God's mission, is to respond to the needs of the suffering - human beings as well as the rest of creation.

VOL: TEC talk. This is spin for pushing for the acceptance of a variety of pansexual behaviors which the Global South find revolting and unacceptable and which Rowan Williams waffles over. She taunts the Archbishop for being double-minded which is usually termed a 'failure of nerve' for not coming out totally for gay priests, same-sex marriage and rites for same.

WILKEN: You also talk about climate change - manmade climate change I should say - and the Church's obligation there. Do you regard it as sinful to deny manmade climate change or to not take part in combating man's part in that change? 

JEFFERTS SCHORI: Well, human beings have certainly been responsible for accelerating the pace of climate change. I only have to look at the carbon dioxide affluent that has been produced since the Industrial Revolution to see that. I think it is incredibly short sighted, in the sense of blind, to refuse to see evidence in the change of climate. The scientific evidence is overwhelming. There are clearly people who choose not to see that. I think that is not using all the gifts that God has given us.

VOL: And she took her House of Bishops to Quito, Ecuador for an expensive gabfest, which increased the global carbon footprint enormously. She could have held a FREE conference call (dot com) with her bishops then she would never have had to see who was falling asleep listening to her whine about "marginalized peoples" and push the church's pansexual agenda one more time and listen to her liberal bromides about saving the world for God.

WILKEN: Short sighted, but is it sinful in your opinion?

JEFFERTS SCHORI: Sin, in our understanding, is separation from God. And if you cannot see the abuse that human beings have caused to creation, I think that you are in some sense separating yourself from God's creation.

WILKEN: So, is that a yes?

JFFERTS SCHORI: That's certainly a way in which I would understand it.

VOL: Sin is much more than that. It is about rebellion against God himself, against the moral order, selfishness, and unrepentance. It is about missing the mark. One might also add this: "For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,[a] neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Rom. 8: 38-39)

WILKEN: When I spoke a moment ago and said Episcopal Church USA, you corrected me and said Episcopal Church in a number of nations. Do you make the distinction between The Episcopal Church and worldwide Anglicanism?

JEFFERTS SCHORI: We're [The Episcopal Church] a separate province of the worldwide Anglican Communion. There are 38 national or regional provinces in the Anglican Communion. We're a part of Anglicanism, but we're one part in relationship with a number of other parts. 

VOL: ...and a very small part at that. TEC now has an average weekly ASA of less than 700,000 and declining yearly. That is the size of a small diocese in Rwanda.

WILKEN: There has been some tension between The Episcopal Church and the Anglican Communion. How would you say that tension has been created? How do you think it resolved, if possible? 

JEFFERTS SCHORI: Well, you know, churches going back to the First Century of Christianity have always been in tension, because people never share all of the same ideas and understandings. You know the first great Church fight was about whether or not Gentiles could join the "Jesus Movement". Those tensions have continued through the ages. We're not going to finish with them until the Second Coming. And they can be creative, if they are used creatively. If conflict simply results in division, then it is not creative; it's destructive, generally. But when we can stay in relationship and explore our differences and continue to dialogue about them, usually everybody grows in the process and it ends up being creative rather than destructive. 

VOL: The early church attended to Judaizers and those who wanted to keep some aspect of the law in order to be saved. The "differences" today also involve salvation issues. Dialogue is all but dead. There is already a de facto schism if not a de jure one. The vast majority of the Global South primates are in "impaired and/or broken communion" with TEC. GAFCON/FCA was formed to declare that the Global South was no longer in communion with the ABC. A Lambeth Conference and a Primates meeting in Dublin saw one third of the Archbishops of the Communion in a no show thus declaring that the Anglican Communion was broken. Whether it can be repaired with Dr. Rowan Williams still at the helm is the issue. With him gone and an Evangelical at the head of the Communion it would be a whole new ball game. What about that does Jefferts Schori not understand?

WILKEN: In 2003, I believe, you consented to the election of Gene Robinson as the first openly gay bishop in The Episcopal Church, Now that's been almost 10 years, I think. Do you have any regrets about that move? 

JEFFERTS SCHORI: I knew at the time that it would be a very difficult decision for the wider church, both in The Episcopal Church and across the world. But, no, I believe that I, and others who voted to do that, understood that we were doing that out of a sense of great faithfulness to where we are in this church and to the Call of God in the midst of it. It's not been easy, but at the same time I think that people across the [Anglican] Communion and within this [The Episcopal] Church - a number of them who disagreed with that decision have to realize that it is not a decision that has to divide a community, that we can continue to exist together in a community even if we don't agree. VOL: Total nonsense. A third of the all Anglican Primates are no longer in communion with her over the Robinson consecration and they represent nearly 80% of the entire Anglican Communion. TEC is a sideshow with only money to manipulate poor Anglican African provinces.

WILKEN: You said that the issue of whether or not to ordain active lesbian-gay-bisexual-transgendered persons should not be a "church dividing issue". But, Bishop, as you know, many disagree entirely. Dioceses, parishes, many individuals have left The Episcopal Church for that and other reasons believing that they are "church dividing issues". 

JEFFERTS SCHORI: Some people have left some congregations and some people have left some dioceses over this issue, that's correct. And, yes, they do believe that it is a "[church] dividing issue". At the same time, many people who disagreed with the decision - most people who disagreed with the decision - have remained in The [Episcopal] Church and continue to make common cause with their fellow Episcopalians in the work of healing the world. They believe that our engagement in mission together is more important than disagreement about that [homosexual] issue.

VOL: Really. Then how can she explain four entire dioceses leaving TEC, hundreds of individual churches leaving, with four bishops heading to Rome (with one now heading up the Pope's personal Ordinariate)...and millions of dollars spent on litigation for properties. Two thirds of the entire Diocese of Pittsburgh has left TEC, nearly 80% of the Diocese of Ft. Worth. Those orthodox Episcopalians who stay do so because they don't want to get into a legal battle over property issues like the Church of the Good Samaritan in Paoli, PA and prefer to remain under the radar of a revisionist bishop like Charles Bennison. Another group of Episcopalians quietly scream, "Not in my parish" and politely go their way. The doctrine of inclusion is also not for them.

WILKEN: What are the similarities, how would you describe the similarities and the differences between your church body [The Episcopal Church] and the newly formed Anglican Church in North America?

JEFFERTS SCHORI: Well, the Anglican Church in North American seems to have its primary identity as being opposed to decisions of The Episcopal Church. I certainly hope that they will come to have an identity that's positively rooted in their unique identity, and I think that when they come to do that, that we should be able to build some ecumenical relationships with them. 

VOL: That is a false characterization of ACNA. At the beginning when the AMIA was formed it was in reaction to TEC. ACNA was formed as a safe place for orthodox Episcopalians being hounded out of TEC because of TEC's theological and sexual innovations. More than 100,000 in nearly 1,000 parishes have fled TEC in the last few years and there is no sign that is letting up.

WILKEN: In the last generation - 40 years or so - The Episcopal Church has seen the ordination of women. I think that was in the early 70s. It's first openly gay bishop more recently; and the ordination of lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgendered persons to the priesthood. Where do you see The Episcopal Church headed in the next generation - the next 40 years?

JEFFERTS SCHORI: I think the next 40 years are going to be time of significant reformation in the sense of expanding the variety of faith communities -- expanding the ways in which we "make a church" together. You can see examples of that already - things like [the] Common Cathedral Movements; where groups of people gather outside it on a regular basis for church services that those communities often serve the homeless. Where you see people who gather -- there's an example in New York City. Something called a "Dinner Church" where primary beginning of the community has been to gather to cook a meal, and out of that has grown a worshipping community. The phrase that is often used is "emergent" or "emerging church" communities, and I think we are going to see a great flourishing of that. And those communities may or may not be tied to permanent buildings in the way that most mainline denomination congregations are today.

VOL: At the present rate of decline there is every reason to believe that within 26 years The Episcopal Church will cease to exist in any sense as a denomination unless there is serious reformation, renewal and revival. Numbers don't lie. The evangelically driven ACNA will only prosper, but not without problems and "issues" like the ordination of women yet to be resolved. Narrow pathways always come with thorns and sharp rocks.

WILKEN: Do you see a connection the early 70s ordination of women [the Philadelphia 11 on July 29, 2974] to the priesthood of The Episcopal Church and the early 2000's ordination of lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgendered persons to the priesthood?

JEFFERTS SCHORI: Yes, and I would certainly take it farther back. I think it is deeply connected with the ordinations of the first African-Americans [Absalom Jones in 1804] to this tradition and the first Native Americans [Enmegahbowh of the Ottawa Tribe in 1867] in this tradition and the first Asians [Wong Kong-chai in 1863] in this tradition. The challenge particularly in the United States, a part of our context has been expanding the understanding of what a normative human being is. And it is not just a "white man". It includes people of other ethnic origins, includes people of the other gender, it includes people of other sexual orientations. One of the significant changes in our prayer book of the late 1970s was our admission of children to [Holy] Communion before they were confirmed. You use to have to wait until you were a teenager and had been confirmed before you could come to Communion. We said: "No, children as soon as they are baptized are full members of this community." I don't know what the next iteration of that journey will look like. But I think there will be one. 

VOL: Dumbing down the Prayer Book and lowering entry requirements will not build churches, and comparing a person's skin color with same sex attractions angers a lot of Black people who don't like the comparison.

WILKEN: What do you see the central message of Scripture is, Bishop?

JEFFERTS SCHORI: Love God and love your neighbor.

VOL: One wonders if that applies to Archbishops Bob Duncan, Rowan Williams or Nicholas Okoh. Talk is cheap.

WILKEN: I think that the central message is: of man's sin ...his fallen condition - alienation from God, thereby loss of the image of God, thereby... And it's complete restoration in the Incarnation ... the perfect life -- sinless life ... death and resurrection ... the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ. And I think that is the central thread of Scripture. Am I wrong? 

JEFFERTS SCHORI: I think that is a piece of it. But clearly God is at work communities and contexts beyond the Christian one. If you see that as the primary thrust of the Jewish Scripture I think that is a misreading. Certainly the Jews are understood as "Chosen People" in our Biblical texts. God is clearly at work in all of creation and part of our task as Christians is to discern and affirm at where we find God at work beyond our comfortable places. 

VOL: In other words Christianity is not exclusively the way to the Father there are other pathways - Muslim, Buddhist and Hindu. The Presiding Bishop is on record saying she would never seek to convert a Muslim to Christ as their pathway to God is just as valid as her pathway, which, presumably, is still Christian. She also publicly denied the need for personal salvation.

WILKEN: The passage that I guess I go to repeatedly in taking that position is to Jesus, Himself, where He says: "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and no one comes to the Father except through Me." [John 14:6] Jesus is claiming to be the ONLY revelation of God; the ONLY revelation of the sacred in His Incarnation; and most certainly, the ONLY way to the True God. What are your thoughts there? 

JEFFERTS SCHORI: He also says in another place [John 10:16] that He has flocks, that He is called to care for flocks - sheep that aren't already in a particular fold, and that He has words of truth for them as well.

WILKEN: So what do you think He is referring to there, specifically?

JEFFERTS SCHORI: I think He is referring to people beyond our comfort zone. 

WILKEN: Beyond Christianity? 

JEFFERTS SCHORI: Could be...

WILKEN: Well, do you think it is beyond Christianity? 

JEFFERTS SCHORI: I think the work of Jesus has changed reality for all human beings whether they acknowledge themselves Christians or not. 

VOL: Scripture says, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed and no one can say Jesus is Lord, except by the Holy Spirit. (1 Cor. 12:3). So if she cannot say unequivocally that "Jesus is Lord", can she be called a Christian? Again St. Paul: "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." 

Jesus did not die on a cross "to change reality for all human beings," He came to change hearts and lives through his death and resurrection.

END

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