Topic More Avoided Than Justification by Faith - Abusive Clergy. Covering Up and Moving the Louse Is Not the Answer

Patterson provided an insta-call.

Zank was Engelbrecht's Amen Corner,
so he was elected DP to replace Deputy Doug Engelbrecht.

http://shatteredpulpit.blogspot.com

Friday, September 5, 2014

How Should the Church Respond?

Taken from The Hope of Survivors (see below for their web site):
 
When a pastor has violated his sacred trust by taking advantage of a congregant, the church often wonders what to do and how to respond. Unfortunately, all too often, the church does not respond in a manner that is helpful to either the victim or the pastor. Below are some suggested guidelines to be adopted in order to help facilitate healing for all.

1. Recognize that the pastor has violated his sacred authority and trust. This must be understood in order to prevent blaming the victim and re-victimizing her. Women who have been sexually abused by their pastors feel betrayed, not only by the pastor and the church, but by God. The pastor is the one she looked to for spiritual guidance and direction. If he led her in the wrong direction, claiming that it was God’s will for them to be together (or whatever else he may be trying to get her to do), she may have perceived it as God leading her in a wrong direction (or a direction she hitherto believed to be wrong) and become very confused. If she cannot trust God, what can she do?

2. Take responsibility for the situation. A pastor who has sinned in this regard has proven that he is no longer capable of performing the sacred duties pertaining to a minister of the Gospel. Adultery is a violation of the 7th Commandment. It must never be permitted in a pastor—a man who stands in the pulpit as a representative of Christ. It is shameful!

3. Talk to the victim and her family. Have compassion for her and her family. Listen to her; find out how to bring about spiritual, emotional and physical healing. What are her emotional and financial needs? Does she need counseling? Does her family need counseling? Setting up a once weekly counseling session for a period of one year (at no cost to her) should help the victim to see that her needs are being addressed. We mention financial needs as most victims, at some point during or after the abuse, incur financial loss and sometimes a total devastation. This type of abuse is so emotionally devastatingthat some women (and even their husbands) may be unable to perform in their jobs for quite some time during and after the abuse. The church has a responsibility to assist the victim in getting back on her feet financially, if this is the case.

4. One of the most important things to a victim is to be heard, understood, comforted and believed. She did not make this up. She feels horrible about it and most likely feels she, alone, is to blame.

5. The church, as a whole, cannot afford to go into denial about this crisis. Covering it up, moving the pastor to another church, turning against the victim are all improper and detrimental ways to handle this situation. The church should not be concerned about avoiding liability and financial loss. This hurts everyone and only prolongs the healing process for all. Most victims would never think to file a suit against the church if they were treated with respect and dignity, listened to and comforted. Most women in these situations do not wish to bring harm to the church, their pastor, his family or anyone else. The main reason lawsuits are filed is because no one within the church hierarchy or congregation would listen or take appropriate action. Lawsuits are virtually always a victim’s last resort in order to be heard and helped to heal. As a church, as children of God, we are to be concerned about souls, not financial loss.

In some states, it is a criminal offense for a pastor to have a “relationship” with a congregant. It is usually possible for a civil suit to be filed against the pastor and/or the church, even if a criminal suit is not an available option. (The Hope of Survivors is aware of several women at this time who are in civil suits with their former abusive pastors, and it has been very hard on them emotionally, physically, financially and spiritually. At the same time, we recognize and empathize with the individual’s need to see her pastor stop abusing herself and others. Whether a lawsuit is filed or not, it is always right for the pastor to be held accountable for his actions.)

6. Recognize the responsibility to the victim, the congregation, the pastor, the pastor’s wife (and family) and the community. (Responsibility to the victim has been addressed above.)

        A. The church’s responsibility to the congregation:

            i. Inform the congregation of what really happened. This can be done tactfully and without intimate details. Full disclosure is important. The congregation should be educated to the fact that this was NOT an “affair” or a “consensual relationship” but, rather, it was an abuse of power. The pastor is not “just a man.” The pastor is responsible in ALL cases for maintaining appropriate boundaries and behaviors toward a congregant/counselee.

            ii. In the confusion of this “relationship,” the marriage vows (both of the pastor and the victim, if married) were violated and overlooked. The pastor took a solemn vow before God to be faithful to his wife, to God and to the church, and to help those in his flock to uphold their own marriage vows. As a shepherd of God’s flock, his responsibility to remain faithful in his commitments is much higher.

            iii. Don’t just practice “damage control” and try to think of “the least we can get away with and move on.” This will never be helpful to anyone. Try to foster an environment of acceptance (not tolerance!), compassion, love and understanding.

        B. The church’s responsibility to the pastor and his family:

            i. The church has the responsibility to relieve the offending pastor of his sacred office immediately. If he is not repentant, steps should be taken to disfellowship him. Some may ask why the victim is allowed to remain in the church while the pastor is not. The answer is this: the church needs to understand that this is abuse; each member needs to recognize their responsibility and their accountability to God and to their spouse (10 Commandments, Phil 4:13); acknowledge that God requires fidelity to His commandments at all times; the victim was never in the position of authority, as was the pastor; the victim did not come to church thinking, “I’m going to destroy this pastor.” On the other hand, the pastor is the one who often speculates and fantasizes about different scenarios with different congregants.

            ii. The church should make provision to assist the pastor and his family in getting proper counseling, and provide the opportunity for them to heal spiritually and emotionally. Does the wife have someone she can talk to regarding her husband’s behavior? If he is struggling with pornography or masturbation, he will most likely act out this sexual behavior eventually, given the right opportunity. At all times, the pastor and his family need to be addressed tactfully, in love and with compassion. Efforts should be made to restore an offending pastor to the church (not his position) when the genuine fruits of repentance are manifested in his life.

        C. The church’s responsibility to the community:

            i. If the actions were public or made public, it should be addressed publicly, with the church offering its regrets and informing the community of the steps it has taken to correct the problem. 

            ii. If the situation is not known publicly (meaning outside of the church), then don’t “air the church’s dirty laundry” and bring shame and reproach on the cause of God. Handle the situation truthfully and tactfully within the proper organizational structure.

If someone within the church (local congregation, conference, any governing body) is aware of the pastor’s struggle with pornography or masturbation (or any other sexual sin), they should monitor his behavior very closely. Again, given the right circumstances, he will most likely act out sexually with another. If the pastor has a history of abuse and has been moved from church to church, the church (the governing body that was aware of the abuse) is responsible.

What the church members at large, or the community (if the community was already aware of the problem), do not know is left to speculation, rumors and gossip. This only creates division within the church and does further damage to the victim. Clarification kills gossip!

To summarize what Marie M. Fortune wrote in her book, Is Nothing Sacred?, the proper steps to take when implementing justice and mercy (based on Micah 6:8) include:

    1. Truth-telling (breaking the silence of the abuse)

    2. Acknowledging the violation (in hearing the truth, the church acknowledges the violation)

    3. Compassion (means to “suffer with,” to be present, acknowledge and listen, even when you can’t solve the problem)

    4. Protecting the vulnerable (prevent further harm)

    5. Accountability (based on Luke 17:1-4, it begins with confrontation and should end in repentance)

    6. Restitution (making payment for damages is a concrete means of renewing right-relation)

    7. Vindication (for the victim, it most often means exoneration and justification)

The bottom line: TAKE RESPONSIBILITY–DON’T HIDE!

The Hope of Survivors
http://www.thehopeofsurvivors.com/how_should_church_respond.php

Thursday, September 4, 2014

Seven Unhealthy Congregational Responses

Seven Unhealthy Congregational Responses toward Victims of Clergy Sexual Assault or Abuse - by Carolyn Waterstradt, ma, msw 

Because congregants are often unfamiliar with what clergy sexual assault or abuse is, the majority do not know how to respond when someone is victimized in their congregation. Sadly, congregant’s most common responses are unhealthy and re-traumatize or re-injure the victim. In addition, these unhealthy responses make it impossible for the congregation to truly acknowledge, work through, and heal from the clergyperson’s betrayal of the congregation. When denominational or congregational leaders do not speak outregarding the damage of unhealthy responses to the victim their silence allow these unhealthy behaviors to perpetuate creating an environment in which dysfunction is the norm, thereby increasing the likelihood of calling another abusive clergyperson to the congregation.

What are these unhealthy responses towards a victim?

1. Blaming – Congregants blame victims for the assault or abuse because they erroneously believe it must be the victims’ fault because a man or woman of the cloth could never be a sexual predator. However, anytime a clergy person has a sexual relationship with a congregant it is an abuse of power. Congregants or church leaders often misplace blame by asking victims to leave the congregation or limit participation in the congregation. Victims who work in the church usually lose their jobs.

2. Shaming – Congregants shame victims by accosting or sending hate mail. “How could you?” “You need to repent.” “I forgive you for your sinfulness.” “What kind of person are you?”  Victims are not responsible for the abuse or the assault.

3. Shunning – When congregants intentionally avoid victims such as blatantly turning around and walking away when they see a victim in the store, they practice shunning. Shunning may take the form of no longer speaking to, socializing with or inviting victims to participate in activities. Shunning is also deleting or blocking victims from social media pages, ignoring victims’ phone messages, or failing to acknowledge their emails, messages, or letters.

4. Gossip – Gossip is when congregants spread rumors about victims. Eventually victims hear the gossip from a third party. Of course, gossip is skewed and rarely contains facts.

5. Degrading – Congregants degrade victims when talking ill of them. Imagine the impact degradation has on someone striving to heal from sexual trauma and posttraumatic stress. Then imagine the impact such degradation has that person’s children when congregants say, “I’m sorry your Mom is crazy….a whore….a witch.”

6. Dismissing – Congregants may dismiss victims’ families from congregational life. Being dismissed like yesterday’s trash is especially damaging to underage children who are spiritually impressionable. Such congregational behavior often stunts or blocks children’s spiritual growth. Friends who support the victim may also be dismissed from the congregation.

7. Colluding – Congregational and denominational leaders collude by not naming what happened as assault or abuse, allowing victims to be removed or expelled from congregational life, working with or covering for the perpetrator, and remaining silent on the dynamics of clergy sexual abuse and assault. Victims and their families must be a primary concern of the congregation and denomination for communal healing to occur.

If you have found yourself, acting in one of the above mentioned manners, please realize that it is a common reaction to want to protect the clergyperson especially considering most congregants are not familiar with what clergy sexual abuse is.  The good news is that once you learn about what about clergy sexual abuse is you can change your response to victims in light of your new found knowledge.  It is best to respond to victims of sexual assault or sexual abuse with same respect and dignity as congregants who have a terminal illness or recently lost a loved one.

Copyright © 2013 Inner Quest Healing – All Rights Reserved.
http://carolynwaterstradt.com/seven-unhealthy-congregational-responses-toward-victims-of-clergy-sexual-assault-or-abuse/

Immobilize and Mineralize - The Soil Food Web of the Creator

This photo of fungus decomposing grass illustrates how nutrients are liberated and moved.

"Fungi are the primary decay agents in the soil food web. The enzymes they release allow fungi to penetrate not only the lignin and cellulose in plants (dead or alive) but also the hard, chitin
shells of insects, the bones of animals, and— as many gardeners have learned— even the protein of strong toenails and fingernails. Bacteria can hold their own, but they require simpler-to-digest foods, often the by-products of fungal decay, and often only after such food has been broken or opened up by fungi and others. Compared to fungi, bacteria are in the Minor Leagues of decaying ability." 
Lewis, Wayne; Lewis, Wayne; Lowenfels, Jeff; Lowenfels, Jeff (2010-09-10). Teaming with Microbes: The Organic Gardener's Guide to the Soil Food Web, Revised Edition (Kindle Locations 888-891). Timber Press. Kindle Edition.

I now have Teaming with Microbes on Kindle. Previously I bought the print edition and just found out I could get the Kindle version for $3. Amazon never forgets. Now I have both Kindle versions on my computer with the big screen. Teaming with Nutrients is second book in the series. I never caught on to the little Kindle book reader, so this method is ideal for reading and writing, since I can mark and copy book quotations and use them for blogging. One student already warned me against buying too many Kindle books. 

My goal in this endless string of gardening posts is to show how easy this hobby can be with the application of Creation principles. The closer we look at the microscopic world, the more we understand the complex dependencies that could not exist without design. 

Immobilize
Two ideas are easy to grasp but complicated in their execution. The first involves immobilizing plant nutrients. The chemical gardener puts amendments on the soil, assuming that the NPK will pass through but leave some beneficial results. Liebig, in Germany--who discovered the use of inorganic nitrogen, phosphorous, and potassium--found this inorganic method did not work very well on his own garden and later argued for manure.

The Creation gardener adds organic matter and accomplishes an important step in keeping nutrition where plants can use it. The application of mulch, newsprint, compost, manure, and plant remains will build up the bacteria, fungi, and soil creatures. The ocean of life in the soil captures the basic elements and keeps them around by eating and being eaten.

If the total soil population doubles, then the available NPK also goes up, along with the other basic elements in soil chemistry.

Mineralize
Feeding the plant roots involves breaking the elements down so the roots can swap carbon for those minerals. The decomposers (fungi, bacteria, protozoa) break the chemical bonds and free the elements for soil use. 

Earthworms are shredders that help pull apart leaves and grass for the decomposers to attack at another level. Waste matter is the byproduct that becomes plant-food while the creatures serve as food for others, which also generate useful waste - especially nitrogen compounds.

Complex Dependencies
I often see Internet posts mocking Creation. I wonder how these people account for protozoa and bacteria balancing their populations, pathogens being destroyed in the soil by mold and bacteria (penicillin and streptomycin), lengthy fungus hyphae attacking soil surface litter to feed the roots below.

Mutualists – the mycorrhizal fungi – colonize plant roots. In exchange for carbon from the plant, mycorrhizal fungi help solubolize phosphorus and bring soil nutrients (phosphorus, nitrogen, micronutrients, and perhaps water) to the plant.
http://urbanext.illinois.edu/soil/SoilBiology/fungi.htm

One can isolate three-way dependencies, but they are far more involved than that. Each individual component relies on all the others for life, and each component gives life to others. Ants farm  fungus, and they drag dead earthworms away to be eaten and recycled. Earthworms graze on bacteria, moving them and concentrating them while multiplying the values of the soil they circulate through their bodies. Darwin suggested that all soil has passed through the bodies of earthworms at one time - a singular accomplishment by itself.

Poisonous fly agaric fungus

No one should be surprised that false teachers specialize in isolating one part of God's Word to make a case for their peculiar dogma. They refuse to see the whole and angrily impose their partial view on everyone, ignoring the vast number of contradictions that defeat their notions.

Many are allergic to reading Luther because he always treated the Bible as a unit. When people denied infant faith because they lacked the reasoning powers of adults, he countered, "You have reason but you still have no faith."

Bugs Never Bugged Me, Because I Was Raised Right

Ladybugs are named after the Virgin Mary.
They are voracious pest eaters in all stages of life,
but vulnerable to sprays and "safe" oils.

I was trying to figure out how long it would take to catch up with my mother's knowledge of insects and wildflowers. She published articles on butterflies and moths, with expert photos included. When I read a gardening book about beneficial insects, I recalled her constant advice - "Leave the bugs alone. The beneficial insects will take care of the bad ones." We would be outdoors and she would find an interesting one, hold it in her hand, and demonstrate how safe it was.

One of the biggest mistakes in gardening is to resort to insecticides and oils to take care of a pest. That will work temporarily, but those measures are even more effective against beneficial insects and spiders. Almost all bugs are beneficial, so a bugspray will wipe out the whole population in one area and allow the worst pests to come back before the beneficial insects recover.

An edible oil is not toxic by itself, but when used to get rid of pests, the oil will also suffocate the eggs of good insects, like the ladybug.

People seem content to view weeds, bugs, and certain birds as bad, but God created them all for specific purposes. Our helper continues to worry about the crabgrass in the sunny garden, where tomatoes are forming and ripening. I see the tangle of crabgrass and vines as green manure. They will provide the carbohydrates for the soil creatures below, where the richness of their chemistry will be locked into the top layer of soil for next year's garden. If a tomato is damaged and not good to bring indoors, I smash it into the soil so it the seeds will volunteer new plants next year.

I also want trashy areas for bugs and birds. The lawn is in great shape, simply from the mulching mower, but a grassy area limits life above ground. There is nothing like a wild patch for spiders and birds to find their food. Across the street is a maple filled with one type of bird each night. I am not sure which species, but they want to eat in the morning and evening. I want our yard to be a spa for birds, so they stop by to bathe, to drink, and to feed on pests.

The invention of labor in gardening continues to fascinate me. Every time I mention roses, someone responds "Work! All the work! The spraying, the pruning..." The gardening books are no help. They outline big projects that make me tired when I read about them. Why build condos for compost when a little chicken wire works?

Asparagus is a good example. As farm boys know, it is often found along fences, where birds rested and deposited the seed - with fertilizer.

Now read a gardening book. Dig a big trench and fill it with compost hauled from the three-stage compost condominium complex that you built with your carpenter friend. Put the mature plants in deep. Cover with soil, then wait, and cover with more soil or compost. And again. And again. But I ask, "The birds just sit on a fence. Why?"

The key to asparagus is time and rich soil. I have chosen an area where I will plant asparagus in mushroom compost and cover with organic material, including newspaper, mulch, and compost. Earthworms will distribute the organic matter and fungi will feed the roots. The overhead soaker hose will keep them watered. The thick spears will be harvested and the rest will fern out to feed the enormous roots. I will buy praying mantis eggs cases to populate the area with the nemesis of the asparagus beetle.

Alcoholism in WELS

The atmosphere is familiar but not exactly inviting.

The latest post in The Shattered Pulpit blog concerns the pastor, his wife, and the blogger all drinking in excess together.

The post explains why WELS is so accommodating for pastors like Ski and Glende, who sacrificially began a bar ministry, calling it a coffee house ministry, and got themselves into a pile of trouble - even by WELS standards.

Alcoholism is an addiction carefully nurtured by alcoholic WELS leaders, beginning in college. Although one argument for closing NWC was the student alcoholism there, Martin Luther College is no different. The best way to become student body president and GA pope is becoming a falling down drunk before graduation and after.

Alcoholic addiction is legal and well supported by a giant legal apparatus in Wisconsin. No other state is more tolerant of drunk drivers. No other synod is so understanding - with DPs and seminary professors and missionaries running to the bar association after getting loaded and wrecked by another type of bar.

Alcoholism is a physical addiction. Drunks get withdrawal symptoms when they go without liquor, and withdrawal is considered a medical emergency.

Alcoholism develops slowly, over the years. The person who can drink the most without showing it will be a good candidate for total addiction in 20 years. When the habits are developed and encouraged in college, the ministry is bound to continue the pattern - since clergy socials are often lubricated with liquor.

Non-drinking denominations are likely to have plenty of alcoholics, but the ones openly welcoming the cash bar at all events are going to be the best places for a drunk to hide. "George had a little bit too much to drink last night." I witnessed one LCA pastor offer to pay for everyone's drinks if his new pals stayed at the bar with him. They didn't. In another case, a younger woman offered to stay with the older drunk pastor and drive him back to the hotel. Everyone was leaving, but those were staying for another round. That reminded me of Roman Catholic events - like the conferences that began with a cash bar.

An Episcopalian priest told our group that the first thing on the grocery store list each week was liquor, both for him and his wife. Their children suffered terribly until both of them sobered up. He became an effective counselor because he had been there.

The WELS leaders are willfully blind because it is not cool for them to frown on their fellow drunks. "Let him who is without DTs cast the first detox center assignment." When one DP was arrested for a DUI, the synod transferred him to another place. Many know but officially know nothing and see nothing. It is best not to even think about it, as one WELS minder said in the discussion group.

Nick Brander Having been through a negative situation with a previous pastor of the WELS, I don't believe it is our job to have thoughts on this at all. I believe this should have stayed within the affected people, the church leadership and the district leadership. Let me stress that we do not know the full story and we cannot know the full story. For us to form any thoughts would be counter-intuitive and serve no beneficial purpose.

Many tragedies have already happened because of alcoholism, but the attitude remains. DP Buchholz knew about all of Ski's problems long before everything erupted in the Fox Valley WELS circuit and the Anything Goes District. Buchholz laughed about it. That reminded me of another official, Paul Kuske, laughing in the same way about Floyd Stolzenburg.

How long will everyone remain in the Great Cloaca of WELS, simply because it is home to them?

WELS Discussion - The Call and Its Abuse by the District Popes in WELS

Both of these pastors, joined by two church staffers, sued a man for telling the truth about Ski.
Glende was also involved in the charges of sexual harrassment.
They posed for this gluttony photo when studying under the abusive Mark Driscoll.
Does this sound like Walther studying under Bishop Stephany, STD?

Bryan Lidtke‎WELS Discussions

3 hrs · 

As Beckie pointed out, this CRM related issue isn't necessarily the cause of the new call reporting mechanism. Here's a well-documented summary if you haven't heard: https://vdma.wordpress.com/2014/06/11/two-wels-pastors-and-four-meritless-lawsuits/

Thoughts?

Two WELS Pastors and Four Meritless Lawsuits

Recently, two WELS Pastors, Tim Glende and James Skorzewski, and two of their staff members filed four almost identical lawsuits against a WELS layman, Jonathan Donnan, a former member of their con...

VDMA.WORDPRESS.COM

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• Jeffery Clark and 2 others like this.
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  Melissa Brander Unfortunately not surprised it was handled like this. Our culture does not take sexual harassment allegations seriously and the victim is often blamed or shamed and it is seen as "not that bad" or the woman is told she is "overreacting." Too often it is swept under the rug and not taken seriously in Christian church bodies, not just the WELS but I keep up with other church bodies/Christian organizations and two of them within the past year have had scandals where the leaders were accused of inappropriate actions towards women, varying in degrees of severity, but yet people still stand behind them and say they are still "good people." This is not something that is taken as seriously as it should be. Moving him to a different congregation in a different part of the country does not fix the problem and is a large part of why the Catholic Church has had issues because they too often just moved priests who were accused of pedophilia to a different parish instead of handling the issue. There should be zero tolerance for this kind of behavior in a pastor.

  2 hrs · Like · 5
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  Sherrie Rardin I would have a very hard time trusting any of the people involved in this action. We are taught the first step in obtaining forgiveness is to admit the sin. Seems to me that this was never really done. In something of this nature by someone of this status, that admission should have been to the direct people involved, his entire congregation from the pulpit and his fellow pastors as well as his own family, if applicable. Then, and only then, should he expect the victim and her husband to be able to let it go and move on.

  2 hrs · Like · 5
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  Nick Brander Having been through a negative situation with a previous pastor of the WELS, I don't believe it is our job to have thoughts on this at all. I believe this should have stayed within the affected people, the church leadership and the district leadership. Let me stress that we do not know the full story and we cannot know the full story. For us to form any thoughts would be counter-intuitive and serve no beneficial purpose.

  2 hrs · Like
• 

  Bryan Lidtke I think it's important to discuss for a variety of reasons, including:
  1) What if this were to happen to you or the pastor at your congregation? It's nice to see what happened in a previous case. 
  2) What if those involved are currently in your congregation or is your pastor? Once again, it's nice to know what happened. 
  3) If this were to stay only among the affected people and the congregation and the district, what happens when there's a disagreement? I mean, I'm pretty sure the Donnans are upset about what has occurred. Since the congregation and the district leadership sided against them, who's allowed to help them?
  4) I think it's pretty easy to know the full story - ask those involved! From my conversations with those involved, this blog post is a factual and accurate summary of what has transpired.

  2 hrs · Edited · Like · 5
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  Sherrie Rardin I respectfully disagree. It was made a public matter by their decision to file not one but four lawsuits and to hold a public meeting about the matter. Pastors, DPs, etc are not infallible. Sometimes it takes sheep standing and reminding the shepherd of the path.

  2 hrs · Like · 6
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  Bryan Lidtke ^ Forgot to mention that. Thanks, Sherrie! As Sherrie said, a public lawsuit in a public court makes things public I would say.

  1 hr · Like · 1
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  Joe Jewell Exactly. The two aspects that absolutely make this public are the lawsuits filed against the victims (absolutely unbelievable in my mind), which actually did put the entire thing irretrievably on the public record--that was the plaintiffs' poor choice if privacy was the goal--and the fact that he was subsequently placed back into the public ministry. I would agree with Nick that there would be no reason to have a (public) thought on this at all otherwise. However, given those two facts, it's quite right that it be discussed.

  1 hr · Like · 5
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  Nick Brander 1) What has happened in a previous case has little to no relevance in the immediate need to deal with a situation. In specific cases such as these, God's Law and Moral law need no historical precedence
  
  I'm going to combine 2, 3 and 4) Since we don't know the full story, and asking those involved has certainly not worked well already, is there something that we don't know that swayed the District Presidents choice to grant Pastor Ski CRM status? The district and the pastors involved are certainly not telling us.
  
  To approach it from the unpopular angle, is there conclusive proof that Ski acted in such a way that could be deemed inappropriate? Not to diminish the claim, as such allegations are always serious allegations, but just as the pastor is not infallible, so to are the congregants.
  
  Since we know that Ski has received and accepted a call to Texas, it is their prerogative to find out everything they can about the pastor they are calling, and it is not our job to cast the shadow of doubt on someone when we don't know all the facts.
  
  There is too much conjecture to form an opinion on what happened without taking the risk of forming a harmful opinion in error of the truth. It would not serve us at all to get involved in this.

  1 hr · Like
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  Daniel Baker Actually, per the public testimony issued in a Court of Law:

  1 hr · Like · 3
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  Daniel Baker Q: Okay, so you believe that there were indiscretions by the pastor directly towards Jonathan’s wife that occurred by the pastor, correct?
  
  A: Yes, which were addressed. And then once he resigned, it was over because he is no longer a pastor. That happened in the middle of April.

  1 hr · Like · 3
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  Bryan Lidtke How has asking those involved not worked well? Not trying to sound like a jerk here, but I'm not sure I understand what you're saying there.

  1 hr · Like · 1
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  Daniel Baker So the supervising pastor admitted that wrongdoing occurred, and that the issue was "closed" because the perpetrator was removed from the Ministry. However, his readmittance to the Ministry makes this very much worthy of discussion.

  1 hr · Like · 6
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  Nick Brander That the supervising pastor said that there were indiscretions, but Mrs. Dannon says that the supervising pastor was part of it at times and that nothing was done to address him says to me there is something more going on, and that we do not have all the information, and without all the information, it would not become us to form an opinion or make a discussion of it.

  1 hr · Like
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  Nick Brander To put it bluntly, I don't see the need for us to stick our noses into something that we are not involved in.

  1 hr · Like
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  Nick Brander If the Dannons have an issue with the ruling of the District and its President, than it would seem to me that the next appropriate course of action is for them to approach the Council of Presidents

  1 hr · Like
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  Bryan Lidtke They've done that and talked to some other synod officials, as well. Nothing has really been resolved. What's next?

  1 hr · Like · 1
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  Daniel Baker We are involved, because our congregations are in fellowship with a pastor who resigned for sexually inappropriate conduct, whose supervising pastor said, under oath, that he resigned for said indiscretions, and yet who was allowed back into the Ministry and transferred elsewhere. Now he has the potential to be transferred to a parish near you. That definitely is our business.

  1 hr · Like · 3
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  Daniel Baker I don't recall "Council of Presidents" being one of Jesus' steps in St. Matthew 18.

  1 hr · Like · 2
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  Beckie Grunewald So what do you hope to achieve by talking about it here? Are there people here with authority to do something?

  1 hr · Like
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  Daniel Baker As for me, I wasn't planning to comment, but the "we should just be quiet and never question Holy Mother" mentality gets me every time. I imagine Bryan started this thread because people were derailing the CRM Status thread with this unsavory topic.

  1 hr · Like · 3
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  Joe Jewell Personally although this may be a "fait accompli" (though I don't necessarily concede that), exposing this case--which I and many, many others feel was handled quite improperly--helps to ensure that either 1) we stand by our practice of reassigning or granting quickie calls to former pastors in similar situations, only this time in the light of day rather than in the hasty way it was done over the objection of many in and out of the district; or 2) it doesn't happen again. 2) is my preferred outcome, personally.
  
  Finally, secrecy and attempted secrecy are essentially what created the unsavory situation in the first place. Sunlight is an excellent disinfectant. In particular, the nature of the offense (and the lack of repentance that filing the lawsuits demonstrates) means that it absolutely needs to be widely known. Suppose you were considering joining a certain congregation in Texas, or the congregation of the supervising pastor in Wisconsin! This is absolutely and completely relevant, at the minimum, for every woman and every married man. People move around and travel so much these days (both parishioners and called workers). If this is all above-board, let it be known--it is, after all, the PUBLIC ministry.

  1 hr · Edited · Like · 2
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  Bryan Lidtke Yeah, as I said in the OP, this was brought up in the CRM thread and this is off-topic with what was in that thread, so I started one to discuss this in particular.

  1 hr · Like · 1
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  Sherrie Rardin Beckie, if "authority to do something" is now a criterion for discussion, then there need be no more about anything. I personally believe as WELS members we have a right and a responsibility to go to our pastors about things within our church body as a...See More

  47 mins · Like · 3
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  Cathy Probst I find this extremely disturbing. I hope the Texas' church's professional liability insurance is up to date and paid in full.

• 

  Beckie Grunewald Sherrie what I mean is that if people just sit here and go "that's horrible" and then continue to talk about the details but that's it, it just becomes gossip. When I told my husband about it, he made a note to talk to his circuit about it, because it seems wrong and unsavory. But even as we have public details of the suit filed we dont have public knowledge of what happened between Ski and anyone else as far as counseling. It is conjecture and speculation.

  55 mins · Edited · Like
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  Bryan Spiff Grefsheim Disgusting, but sadly not surprising. We all fall short, but the district leadership really let their members down. I'll also add that these two "pastors" clearly were absent when they covered 1 Corinthians 6 at the Sem!

  16 mins · Like · 1
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  Steve Spencer There's really no need for any conjecture or speculation. The necessary facts, straight from those involved - 

  10 mins · Like · 3

FACT: Ski was suspended by the DP "for cause," and that cause was sexual impropriety - it matters not of what kind. Period. 
FACT: In almost every case of such a suspension for a sexual cause, regardless of the circumstances, the man is out for good. 
FACT: In a VERY few cases of this nature, the man at the very least must wait 2 years to even apply for CRM status. 
FACT: Then the application must go through the District Presidium AND the ALL the Pastors of that district. They, then have the opportunity to oppose the granting of CRM status. 
FACT: ONLY after the two-years wait, and the approval by the District is the man even eligible to be placed on Call Lists for consideration. 
FACT: In Ski's case, the district 2nd VP strongly objected, as well as a number of other Pastors, including some CPs. 
FACT: In no other case has the two-year rule been waved. 
FACT: In no other case has an objection by a VP and other District Pastors been dismissed. These are the facts. 

• Now, in this case, it has strenuously been denied by various leaders that there was any "deal" involved, or any "quid pro quo" on anyone's part. I'm certainly willing to accept that. However, as I have pointed out to them, the "appearance of evil" is still quite clear and evident, and enough just cause to re-visit the situation and make public the emails and conversations surrounding the circumstances of the case, especially how it ended with Ski as a Pastor again so soon. If this were the government, or a large business, such communications would be demanded by the press and all those who are concerned for propriety. We're not talking about the sanctity of the "confessional" here, but of how the very public Call process was used in this specific case. Again, there is no speculation about the actual facts. They are what they are. That some leaders are being judged as being less than honest in this case is their own fault, and they hold the remedy - making everything open and above board.

• 

  Christian Schulz ^ Thanks. 
  
  I'll add a short question. Are you willing to accept that there wasn't a "deal" because there's no proof or because you personally don't believe there was one? Personally, the only way such a thing could happen like that, after all you correctly mentioned, is if a "deal" took place. And let's talk about the elephant in the room. Ski is majorly into CoWo/CGM. The DP that is now taking care of him is also majorly into CGM. The connections are too obvious. Obviously a couple phone calls were placed after the smoked cleared a little bit and wallah he's all of a sudden above reproach and is magically in a congregation that happens to be into CGM-type worship as well. I digress as I know the accusations of conjecture are coming. But, seriously, the good ol' boy system was at work here and it's too obvious to deny.

  1 hr · Edited · Like
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  Sherrie Rardin I don't think this falls under gossip; at least it does not for me. My husband (a retired WELS pastor) and I have already made an appointment with our pastor to discuss this and two other synod issues that we find disturbing. We fully intend, pending the results of that discussion, to then speak to our DP about our thoughts and concerns. Right now, to me as an adult confirmand, this seems to me to be a case of "good ole boys protecting their own" instead of leading God's sheep. If I am wrong, I want to know it. If not, I want to know that too. I am in the position of deciding to send my youngest child away to residential WELS school. I have to be able to trust that the men (and women) in leadership positions are not looking out for one of their own before my child.

  1 hr · Like · 5
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  Sherrie Rardin Funny that Mr Schulz and I were posting at the same time and used the same phrase.

  1 hr · Like · 3
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  Bryan Lidtke One thing I find interesting is that Pastor Ski is allowed to be a pastor in any district... except for the one where he formerly served. So he's blameless and above reproach in all but one district?

  1 hr · Like · 4
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  Cathy Probst Quite frankly, if the WELS develops the habit of shuttling problem pastors around, then we are no better than the Catholic Church and their priests. And we know what problems they are experiencing now, especially in MN.

  55 mins · Like · 3
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  Christian Schulz The WELS is too small and interconnected to ever shake it's "good ole boy" disease. This is the only way the WELS knows how to operate. It all starts at the prep schools. The popular kids at prep will be the future DPs and presidents of the schools, etc. If they like you you'll be accodomated. If you keep your head down you'll be tolerated. And if you speak out you'll be swiftly blacklisted.

  45 mins · Like
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  Steve Spencer Clarification: It may be that Ski "resigned" rather that was formally suspended by the DP, I frankly don't remember which. It really doesn't matter, however. Why not? Because this is quite common; i.e. for the leaders to "offer" the man to resign rather than having to be suspended.) The real underlying "cause" remains exactly the same. But sometimes we will see the reason listed officially as "for the good of the ministry," or "for personal reasons." Why these wordings are used has never been made quite clear to me in cases where I have inquired, except that there is sometimes concern for the feelings of the wife and children of the man in question. Again, that is understandable and charitable. As to Christian's question: I am willing to accept that no "deal" was involved because that is exactly and directly what a DP told me following a CoP meeting around that time. He would have no reason to tell me this if it were not true, as he knows full well I could find out from other sources. Of course, it could be that he himself was not told the full story either. Again, that is all beside the point. The appearance of impropriety remains, indeed, it has grown since then. It is incumbent upon those entrusted with leadership in the synod to confront this appearance and make public and proper reassurance to both Pastors and laypeople that there is no substance to it - AND to provide the necessary evidence to support their contention. I think a former President put it this way, "Trust, but verify." No, our leaders are not our enemies. However, in this world, with all the nonsense going on in churches, it is essential that we go far above and beyond what may have been done in the past. That's just the way it is.

  41 mins · Like · 2
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  Steve Spencer Final comment before I sign off for the evening. It is good to hear that at least a couple of Pastors are planning to confront their spiritual leaders about this situation. We all need to remember, however, that the point under consideration here; i.e. the Call process in the WELS, and the recent observed change in dealing with CRM status - all of this has been the very private and secret purview of the DPs, and they alone, for many, many decades. Like the "black files" that get passed from DP to DP over the years, this authority is jealously guarded and protected from all prying eyes, and all inquiries. "Why some and not others" with regard to salvation may indeed be "the mother of all heresy," but that same question with regard to Call Lists is "the mother of all power" in the WELS today, and has been for generations. It will not be given up lightly or easily, questions about it will be deflected many times, and answers will be less than satisfying to many. We really cannot and should not expect it to be otherwise. Power over others is the world's greatest, most intoxicating, and most dangerous drug; and it is this same in the Church Militant as it is in the rest of the world. We must be sure of our own motives, and be clear that we are not in this for our own power, or because of jealousy over the authority of the DPs, or even just to stir the pot. Otherwise, we are nothing but "mud-rakes." While none of us are holy and perfect, and even our best motives have the touch of our Old Adam, our purpose must be to uphold honesty, openness, and integrity as much as possible in the visible church, and indeed to protect our church body - and our leaders themselves - from falling into corruption, and so harm the proclamation of the precious Gospel. THAT must be our first and foremost motive. And that's why we need to hold those in power accountable. Sin fin.

  23 mins · Like · 4
• Rachel Giller Forgive me - I have not read all the comments on this thread. I will repeat what I said a couple of months ago when this was brought up (and why I chose to leave the group for awhile because it was like beating a dead horse over and over and over again!!!). To me - this is not an appropriate post. It is gossip and should not even be on here. The DP is aware of the situation. The President of the Synod is aware of the situation. If you have a problem with it, it is not appropriate to be hashing it out on here. No one that is involved is a member of this group to give their side of the story. You may personally know SOME of the facts, but do you know all of them? Were you in the room when things were being discussed???
  
  This article was written way back in June. It was discussed then, and I believe that the thread was deleted because it was not a discussion that was uplifting and it was not helping further His kingdom.
  
  Sorry not very eloquently written, but I don't understand why this topic was brought back up.

  2 hrs · Like · 1
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  Joel Dusek You who don't think this subject should be brought up demonstrate the reason why the WELS bureaucracy is corrupt. If you don't hold your leaders accountable and come up with a perpetual train of excuses, the abuses of authority continue. In this case, you are not sheep of the Good Shepherd or His appointed Pastors, but are simply sheep. Man up!

  1 hr · Like · 1
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  Joe Jewell Rachel Giller: We believe this is an appropriate topic for discussion, based on the facts (not gossip--facts) as publicly known. Most of the extensive set of facts that are in the public domain have been put there by the protagonist's own choice (when ...See More
  

  
  

  WCCA vs. WELS Privacy Concerns

  vdma.wordpress.com
  

  WCCA stands for Wisconsin Circuit Court Access (formerly known as CCAP), and is the internet portal for information about Wisconsin court cases.  When someone applies for a job, an apartment, or an...
• 
  
1. on June 16, 2014 at 5:11 pmSteve Calder

   It would be refreshing to see the NWD take a lesson from The Word and demonstrate what He taught us; Repent, ask for forgiveness, and make a change in the behavior so as not to repeat it. As leaders, they should start acting like the one who came to serve us!
• 

  Beckie Grunewald Joel, your comments are why I now find this thread distasteful. Not one of us is saying what you imply. We're not holding leaders accountable here. What I see is repeated posts about the "good ole boys" and how that will never change. THAT is gossip. Blogs are nice but they still only represent one side. The facts that we have involve only certain aspects. Making judgments on half the story is not God-pleasing. I find it disheartening that people resort to insulting those among us who are trying to keep this on the right side.

  1 hr · Like
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  Rachel Giller Joe - using the excuse that they are facts and public record does not make it ok to continue to hash it out - GOSSIP. We have an established "chain of command". Obviously because this is public knowledge like I said, the DP knows about this, the President of the Synod knows about this. Who are we to judge??? Yes, we know what the court records say, but we DO NOT know what was said in closed doors between these two Pastors and their leaders. 
  
  And Joel - I take offense to you saying "In this case, you are not sheep of the Good Shepherd or His appointed Pastors, but are simply sheep." Did not Jesus forgive the tax collectors and prostitutes when they were repentant? If I remember correctly he did. No sin is greater than another, whether it is outward sexual immorality or whether it is an itty bitty sinful thought in the back of your mind that you have never taken action on. It is sinful to slander someone's name - which is happening, because even though we have some of the facts, like Beckie said, "blogs are nice but they still only represent one side". Am I "brushing it under the rug" by not discussing? No, I am leaving it up to MY leaders to handle it. Because I trust them and I have faith in them that they are in their appointed positions, where God wants them doing exactly what they need to do.
  
  Yes, we are all sinful and yes we fail EVERY SINGLE DAY - but ya know what??? WE ARE FORGIVEN!!!!! That is the beauty of it. Christ died on the cross for this specific reason. God knows that we are going to stumble and fall. Thankfully HE is there to pick us back up and set us on our feet again. And we will fall again - and He will continue to pick us back up. Are we suppose to forgive and continue to gossip about it? No. We are suppose to move on. Just as we should be doing now! Have a blessed day. I now get to take my girls to school and go to work!

  49 mins · Like · 1
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  Sherrie Rardin Steve, the call point might have been a main concern for some. Honestly, it is not for me. The main point for me is that it appears, at least to me right now, to be a case of "do what I say for some and not for others" and not within the letter or the spirit of our own doctrine. That is ONE of the things we intend to speak to our pastor to discuss and get more info. What happened to a pastor should be above reproach in his own actions? That is what my husband was told in school with regard to the office of pastor. I am not saying that they would ever be able to meet it, but as a goal it sure seems a pretty good target at which to aim. Beckie, I understand your point on gossip. Truly I do. However, it does seem to me that, at least on the surface, we have more than half the story here. Whether things are taken out of context in this summary, I intend to give the parties (through my pastor) the chance to share. We know that would not be the first in either the media or a blog. However, I will say on the surface that even in a case with merit ONE person filing charges would be sufficient. FOUR seems pretty ridiculous and excessive and, to me personally, meant to intimidate or bully. Our meeting is tomorrow. I will be happy to report PRIVATELY to anyone who is interested on the results of that meeting. If you want me to let you know, please message me privately.

  46 mins · Like
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  Beckie Grunewald On a side note to Rachel, I also believe in forgiveness, but there are still worldly consequences. In the other thread, I believe, it was mentioned that in some cases CRM status should not be given again ever, and I do agree with that.
  
  Sherrie, thanks for that post. Yes, we seem to have more than half the story, but we don't have the whole story. We probably never will have the whole story.
  
  I too trust my leaders, because God has placed them there for a reason. Do I believe they are perfect? Of course not. But I have the ultimate faith in my Lord.

  9 mins · Like
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  Bryan Spiff Grefsheim Thank God all of our sins are forgiven, especially mine, but also including those of the pastors in question. That, however is a separate issue. Many called workers have been removed from their office for cause and have still been assured of their forgiveness, but also told that they are no longer qualified to serve in the public ministry. Too often the water gets muddied when we talk about forgiveness and the privilege (not the right) to serve as a minster of the Gospel. 
  I do know what it's like to be forced to stand with a loved one who has been wronged in the church while leadership circles the wagons. It's not fun, it's a lonely place to be, and it's led to many of our people seeking their spiritual leadership elsewhere. Our called workers are held to a higher standard and accountability or more openness in this area would really add to the credibility of our synod for many people. 
  The words that the Holy Spirit led Paul to write to the church in Corinth come to mind. We are not to settle our disputes in the public courts. These workers decided to do that for whatever reason and in the end, they seemed to land on their feet. I hope the victim and her family were able to do the same.
• 

  Joel Dusek Forgiveness requires repentance, and from the public statements and actions of these pastors, they exhibit no repentance. Perhaps, privately, they have, but they should do so publicly as well. Other pastors should be publicly reproving them as well, which is why the blog/Facebook are useful, to call other pastors to action. If that happens and these pastors repent they are forgiven, but are still unqualified for the Ministry. 
  Otherwise, WELS ends not with a bang but with a whisper.
• ---

• 

  Joe Jewell "And maybe that's why I wish the public discussion of Ski would tone down - because in some ways it feeds the beast that wants to dig up dirt on all pastors who resign."
  
  I disagree with that. It's not the DISCUSSION that feeds the beast. It's the simple fact that he got back into ministry at all--and so quickly. People instinctively know that this should not have happened, especially over the objections of so many. Any increase in doubt or eroding of trust in the process is squarely on the shoulders of the two DPs who engineered the "solution" (as well as, of course, on Ski and Glende themselves).

  19 mins · Edited · Like · 1
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  Dan Babinec I can see your point, Joe Jewell. I was more just throwing out my personal thoughts than trying to sway anyone to stop discussing it. Again, there's another thread for that, so maybe I shouldn't have even said anything in that context.

  16 mins · Like · 1
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  Joe Jewell To be perfectly honest it's the emphasis on how it "should all be quiet and not discussed" that has made me lose the MOST trust in the process. It can't help but make one thing "wow, if they're hushing this up, what else are they hushing up?"... "Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them."

***

GJ - These innocents should realized that all the members are paying for the abusers, through higher insurance premiums. They not only pay the costs of the settlements, but also the court costs, which were quite high just for the Scott Zerbe case in the Michigan District.

Michigan DP was resentful that he had to check out the abusive history of the pastors as an insurance requirement. He and others like him were the reason why the insurance companies insisted - because the settlements were so expensive.

Rejection of justification by faith,
replacing it with universal absolution without faith,
has consequences.

DP Engelbrecht made it clear that SP Schroeder did make a deal when the SP traveled to the Green Bay area to meet with the congregation and DP.

"As a result, and after consultation with WELS President Mark Schroeder and President Engelbrecht, the pastor made his suspension from ministry more clear by tending a letter of resignation.  That was then reported via the weekly call report.  Although President Schroeder expressed his approval of the plan that was developed for the pastor by the District Presidium that could lead to possible return to pastoral ministry, he felt that the term “suspension” caused both confusion and questions that could be avoided by a standard “resignation”.    The pastor, who thereupon  willfully submitted his resignation, has continued to follow the original plan of discipline/restoration developed for him by the Presidium, recognizing it as a beneficial program for his physical, spiritual, and emotional well-being.   Since all too often when a called worker in our synod resigns there is no program put in place that helps him or her to be restored spiritually, emotionally, and physically, it is hoped that the program developed by the Presidium in this case might serve as a model for dealing with such situations that arise in our synod in the future." DP Engelbrecth, who was supported by VP Zank, who replaced Deputy Doug.

Here is some information about what was going on - yet supported by Engelbrecht..