Lutherans Abandoned Justification by Faith and Ran Like the Garasene Swine for Fuller Seminary

Mark 5 And all the devils besought him, saying, Send us into the swine, that we may enter into them. And forthwith Jesus gave them leave. And the unclean spirits went out, and entered into the swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the sea, (they were about two thousand;)
and were choked in the sea.

Universal Objective Justification was not dominant in the LCMS and WELS until the period after the 1932 Brief Statement in the Missouri Synod was passed. The Stephan-Walther-Pieper crowd was able to make one convention resolution become the 67th book of the Bible - on the LCMS side - and Gausewitz died in  in 1927 (WELS) - the Synodical Conference president who taught justification by faith in his catechism.

Historical accounts are far messier than such summaries, but they still mark a trail of Lutherans wandering from one position to another. All the Lutheran groups came to America under the spell of late Pietism. Missouri was not a repristinating movement but a Pietistic sex cult. Bishop Martin Stephan was so messed up with syphilis in the brain that he thought he was the sole source of the Means of Grace in Europe, and that he was moving this grace to America - but really moving disgrace to this land. Someone in the cult who disagreed with this claim found himself disciplined with his money taken away - until he repented.

Lutherans have become the Garasene Sheep, too stupid to be pigs.
ELCA-WELS-LCA-ELS love Fuller Seminary and
Mark Jeske Change or Die! conferences.

The LCA side of ELCA began with Muhlenberg, a Halle University guy, and WELS with A. Hoenecke, another Halle University guy, who taught Gausewitz. Bishop Martin Stephan studied at Halle University too, and all Pietists looked the Halle at the mother ship of their movement, even if there were other nodes in the network - much like Fuller Seminary and its odious, cancerous nodes everywhere.

Every Pietistic Lutheran group - LCMS, WELS, Augustana, General Synod splitting into the  GS and General Council, had its era of grappling with Lutheran identity, the Book of Concord, and the writings of Lutheran Orthodoxy. Half of the General Synod left to form the General Council and the Philadelphia Seminary. The General Council left General Synod revivalism behind and became more interested in the liturgy and Confessions. That influenced the General Synod to move in the same direction until they merged to form the ULCA, when rationalistic Pietism took over again.

The re-emergence of rationalistic Pietism took place in Missouri, WELS, and the Augustana Synod too. When the Confessions are no longer taught, Universalism is bound to rear its ugly rear. If you would ask the clergy and professors of ELCA, the Methodist Church, the Episcopalians, and the liberal Baptists, you would find them dismissing the miraculous and divine and teaching Universalism as a token of God's grace. "Everyone is forgiven and saved by God's grace - they only need to be told."

That sounds just like Wayne Mueller and Jon Buchholz, doesn't it? Look for the code words. The mainline liberals say "the Easter faith of the disciples" to say "They believe in the empty grace - we don't."

Jon Buchholz and his Stormtrooper say, "completed salvation," meaning that everyone in the world was forgiven and saved when Jesus died or when He rose, depending on their particular Moment of Universal Absolution.

They just ooze grace, unless someone questions their UOJ. I believe UOJ Pastor Steve Flo condemned me to the lowest depths of Hell for questioning UOJ. Few question UOJ openly so grace is triumphant, they imagine. 

They cannot answer objections to their false doctrine - they just "has a sad. "Pastor Gregory Jackson and my dear friend Keith, I love you both. This conversation makes me very sad. Good night."

Basic Refutations of Justification without Faith - UOJ

Here are some refutations in a short list.

UOJ -

• Rejects the Biblical doctrine of the Holy Spirit always working with the Word, since adherents claim, without a Word of Scripture, that God has forgiven the entire world - without faith.
• Rejects the efficacy of the Word - Isaiah 55, Mark 4, 1 Thessalonians 2:13, etc), which is how God always works His will.
• Implies the Bible contradicts itself by teaching justification by faith and UOJ in Romans 3, Romans 4, and Romans 5.
• Omits the Means of Grace chapter in Romans 10, which explains how the hearing the preached Word causes faith so that people believe and confess the truth of the Gospel.
• Deceives people by quoting Romans 4:25, as if the resurrection of Jesus by itself absolved everyone in the world, atheists, polytheists, Hottentotts, and Hindus - without the Gospel, without faith: omitting Romans 4:24, if we believe in Him who raised Jesus from the dead.
• Hungers for the New NIV , where an invented "all" creates their dogma in Romans 3, as if all have sinned (true) and all are justified (false), as if Romans 3 is schizophrenic in teaching both justification by faith and justification without faith.
• Forgets that Romans 4 is a justification by faith chapter, with Abraham as an example, climaxing in Romans 5:1-2 summarizing Romans 4 - Therefore since we are justified by faith, we have peace with God, access to grace through faith.
• Attacks the Invisible Word (teaching, preaching) and the Visible Word (the sacraments) by claiming falsely that the entire world receives grace without the Means of Grace.
• Finds people announcing UOJ - "behold the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world" in John's Gospel, whose theme is teaching faith that people may be saved. John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
• Twists every Atonement passage by inventing a universal forgiveness and salvation, far beyond the plain meaning of the Word. Examples are in Romans 5 and 2 Corinthians 5.
• Assumes a Roman Catholic view of doctrine, as if an elite class of clergy can infallibly declare what no one else can find in the Bible or church history - except among the false teachers.
• Glorifies Walther, a poorly educated Pietist, for what he learned and repeated from another poorly educated Pietist, the syphilitic bishop Martin Stephan.
• Ignores the teaching of Martin Luther, Chytraeus, Melanchthon, Chemnitz, Andrae, the post-Concordists, and Gerhard. 
• Embraces the false doctrine of Pietists like Rambach and Quistorp, Knapp and his Pietistic translator Leonard Woods Junior, not to mention modernists like Schleiermacher and Barth.
• Condescends to laity and talks down to them, as if the truth of God's Word is only available to certain clergy who agree with selected synod leaders.
• Forgets that WELS taught justification by faith in the original Gausewitz catechism (now flushed down the memory hole), Missouri still teaches justification by faith in the CPH KJV catechism, and he Book of Concord only teaches justification by faith.

• 

Chess and UOJ

UOJ Pastor Steve Flo is offended by my definition of the Gospel,

Romans 4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; 25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

Walther swore allegiance to his adulterous bishop, Martin Stephan,
then organized a mob to rob him and kidnap him at gunpoint,
dumping the sick man in Illinois.

One chess move is to move forces to protect one piece and make that so well guarded that the opponent would rather not capture that pawn and lose a series pieces from counter-moves. A pawn can be convenient for that advance, because it has limited power and points at the moment. Lose a bishop just after taking the pawn? A  knight is sitting there, after taking the bishop. The knight is nimble and handy in the early game, but that bishop is golden in the late game.

The LCMS-ELS-WELS-CLC(sic) line up behind their advance man - Walther, to push Universal Justification without Faith (UOJ, OJ, General Justification - all the same). 

As a chess player and fan of Nimzowitsch, I admire his theories, since chess is related to war. This is certainly a battle - justification - where only one side is fighting.

According to Missouri, WELS, and the ELS,
Walther never committed an actual sin, so he was assumed into heaven.
The State of Missouri contains three (3) shrines or markers for CFW.
One is called The Great Walther.

Walther is their man, their pope, their theologian, their pawn. If anyone questions the Great Walther, the Enthusiasts jump on him like hobos on a hotdog. To question UOJ is to attack Walther and his dutiful disciple F. Pieper.

Fine. Let us concentrate on Walther and compare him to Martin Luther. The main problem is that most clergy do not know Luther or Pietism, only their UOJ talking points, filed under Cute Classroom Quips and Putdowns.

Walther earned a bachelor's from Leipzig University, where most of the faculty members were not believers. Walther's clergyman father was also a rationalist, like the Leipzig faculty. The state church was run by rationalists and controlled certifications and calls. One must wonder how Walther wiggled his way through that, but we do not know.

We do know that CFW Walther was in a Pietistic Bible study group with his brother and other clergy candidates. That is what men did when they did not agree with rationalism. They took their direction from Candidate Kuehn, a very severe Pietist who finally got a call. After that, the same group followed Pastor Martin Stephan, a Pietist (with no college degree) who was called to be the minister of a Bohemian Pietist congregation because he was a Bohemian Pietist. The land for the church was donated by the Pietist Zinzendorf and had special permission to continue Pietist cell groups on the church property.

Therefore, the Walther group was definitely influenced by rationalism (rejecting the divine and the miraculous in the Bible) and deeply immersed in Pietism - by their choice.

Lutheran Pietism is an amalgamation of Lutheranism and Calvinism, with the Calvinistic side winning. Pietism always promotes cell groups but is allergic to the sacraments, the Real Presence, and baptismal regeneration. Pietists love cooperation with other confessions of faith, which is why they ignore and have little knowledge of the Book of Concord.

The Swedish Augustana Synod was born in Pietism and never hid that. They struggled with the weakness of Pietism when they came to America and took on a Confessional identity when revivals and false doctrine showed them the weakness of the movement. Augustana (Latin) stands for the Augsburg Confession - Confessio Augustana.

Luther and the Concordists considered themselves "theologians of the Augsburg Confession." Therefore, to consider ourselves Lutherans, we should study Luther and the Concordists. The so-called quia subscription to the Book of Concord is a joke among Lutherans today, but it is worth remembering there is no subscription to the Walther corpus or the Brief Confession.

Luther and his allies earned doctorates in theology. They knew all the theological fads of the age and rejected them. They were true scholars of the Bible and learned the Biblical languages to refute false doctrine.

 Missouri, like WELS, is full of mini-popes,
infallible because they agree with Pope Walther.

Walther and his followers were poorly trained, but Walther became their seminary president (not allowed today) with his in-bred faculty trained by him. The Saxons married each other and taught each other. Walther was also the synod president and editor, so he controlled the information and buried the history as much as possible. As one reader said, the ships landed in New Orleans, carrying one bishop and one pope.

Pope Walther became their theologian, displacing Luther, Melanchthon, and Chemnitz. Missouri spawned the Wauwatosa Seminary, where the academic and familial in-breeding continued. Like the early Concordia Seminaries, one only needed a semnary degree and political clout to become an infallible professor.

He extended the Left Foot of Fellowship to congregations and pastors,
but the passive, ovine sect re-elected Him anyway.

The Little Sect on the Prairie is a hoot. They made John Moldstad professor of New Testament without him having a college degree - harking back to Walther's mentor, Stephan, with no degree. But they did not make Stephan a seminary professor! The ELS was threatened with some dissent so they made Moldstad VP and he became Pope by right of succession. Thus an addled adherent to UOJ trumps a genuine Lutheran with academic training. How far Lutherans have fallen to re-elect a non-Lutheran dolt like him.

Working is a key word here, because
Pietism emphasized works rather than believing and sound doctrine.

So UOJ advances behind Walther, but justification by faith has St. Paul, Augustine, Luther, the Concordists, and Gerhard behind it.

I have some brief refutations of UOJ, which I will list later.

Sadly, this is the attitude of WELS-ELS-LCMS today.
Silence! The infallible synod voted on this dogma!

Discussions on UOJ - A Long History

Brett Meyer supplied this list of UOJ discussions.

January 2008 Luther Quest UOJ discussion (5 parts)

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/99338714/Luther%20Quest%20UOJ1.pdf

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/99338714/Luther%20Quest%20UOJ2.pdf

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/99338714/Luther%20Quest%20UOJ3.pdf

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/99338714/Luther%20Quest%20UOJ4.pdf

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/99338714/Luther%20Quest%20UOJ5.pdf

February 2009 Extra Nos – Did Jesus Die For Unbelief

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/99338714/Extra%20Nos%20-%20Did%20Jesus%20die%20for%20unbelief.pdf

June 2009 - Bailing Water UOJ discussion

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/99338714/Bailing%20Water%20UOJ%20June%2009.doc

November 2009 Extra Nos – Luther and Calvin

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/99338714/Extra%20Nos%20-%20Luther%20and%20Calvin.pdf

November 2009 Extra Nos – Faith is Justification

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/99338714/Extra%20Nos%20-%20Faith%20is%20Justification.pdf

February 2010 Extra Nos - Imputations

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/99338714/Extra%20Nos%20-%20Imputations.pdf

February 2010 Intrepid Lutherans UOJ discussion

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/99338714/Intrepid%20Lutheran%20UOJ%20discussion%20Prange%20Boisclair%20Rydecki%20Krohn.docx

March 2010 Extra Nos – Grinding My Axe

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/99338714/Extra%20Nos%20-%20Grinding%20my%20axe.pdf

April 2010 Extra Nos – Why Faith Gets A Bum Rap

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/99338714/Extra%20Nos%20-%20Why%20faith%20gets%20a%20bum%20rap.pdf

February 2012  Brother’s of John the Steadfast UOJ discussion

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/99338714/UOJ%20BJS%20Discussion%20Feb%202012.docx

November 2013 Luther Quest UOJ discussion

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/99338714/UOJ%20LutherQuest%20November%202013.docx

UOJ and Church Growth work claw-in-claw with each other,
but the "conservative" Lutherans see no evil.
A few are waking up at last.

Jay Webber and Steve Flo - Own This or Deny It - This Is What UOJ Teaches

In contrast, Luther in the Book of Concord -

38] For neither you nor I could ever know anything of Christ, or believe on Him, and obtain Him for our Lord, unless it were offered to us and granted to our hearts by the Holy Ghost through the preaching of the Gospel. The work is done and accomplished; for Christ has acquired and gained the treasure for us by His suffering, death, resurrection, etc. But if the work remained concealed so that no one knew of it, then it would be in vain and lost. That this treasure, therefore, might not lie buried, but be appropriated and enjoyed, God has caused the Word to go forth and be proclaimed, in which He gives the Holy Ghost to bring this treasure home and appropriate it to us. 39] Therefore sanctifying is nothing else than bringing us to Christ to receive this good, to which we could not attain of ourselves.

UOJists Are Getting Boiling Mad, But Cannot Make a Case for Universal Forgiveness without Faith

"I believe in the Chief Article of Christianity."
One of these statues is a bit different.

LCMS Pastor Steve Flo decided to pick a fight with me about justification. I have been writing about the issue for the last 15 years and knew about it since 1987 when Christian News had many articles about Kokomo and Universal Objective Justification.

Otten picked up on the Flo link, so I went to Flo's Facebook page and spent some time arguing for justification by faith. No one can harmonize the doctrine of Paul and Luther with the dogma of Halle University. Flo did not even try. He simply repeated the UOJ talking points and cute classroom quips learned in school.

Justification by faith is Biblical and well known among all scholars of all nations. UOJ is rationalistic and anti-Christian, largely hid from the members of Missouri, WELS, the Little Sect on the Prairie, and the almost-dead Church of the Lutheran Confession (sic).

Although Missouri leaders follow the false doctrine of Stephan-Walther-Pieper, a large swath of Missouri pastors disdain UOJ and teach justification by faith. Robert Preus clearly taught UOJ in his earlier career, when Church Growth was blossoming at Ft. Wayne - with his approval. But Preus' last book, Justification and Rome, repudiated UOJ in the clearest possible terms, not only in his quotations of orthodox Lutherans, but also in his own words.

Walther was not a Biblical scholar. I recently read that he did not know the Biblical languages well. He only had a bachelor's degree from Leipzig, where most of the faculty were rationalistic and considered believers to be mystics or Pietists. Walther's father was a rationalist, too. Walther followed his brother's lead and lined up with one dictatorial Pietist, Candidate Kuehn, and then another, Pastor Martin Stephan, after Kuehn died. When Stephan was tried for immorality with young women and put under house arrest, with police officers stationed in his house, the Pietist leader decided to decamp to America. The young clergy helped organize the mass migration and the older clergy stayed home.

Missouri likes to skip over the years between landing in New Orleans and forming the synod years later. Walther did not want a history written and almost nothing was done to cross him until Zion on the Mississippi was published, a doctoral dissertation of considerable detail and frankness.

Missouri was very much a blend of Pietism and Lutheran Orthodoxy, much like the Augustana Synod and the other groups that came over. Each one struggled with its Lutheran identity and became more Lutheran and less Pietistic and Unionistic. However, Pietism is a cancer that eats away at the Confessional and Biblical nature of Luther, the Book of Concord, and the post-Concord greats like Gerhard.

In contrast, Luther and Melanchthon were primarily Biblical scholars who taught by explaining the Scriptures directly, not by stating a thesis and citing a Biblical passage - for example in Missouri today, everyone on earth is forgiven without and before faith, Rom 4:25 - raised for our justification! That malapropism is found in the 1932 Brief Confession of the LCMS, now engraved in marble in the ossified hearts of Missouri Synod Walther fans.

Walther fans do not deal with the historical context of CFW's errors and his covering for Stephan's blatant adultery. Walther had no problem following a leader who took his mistress on the ship with him and parked her in the next cabin, near his eldest son! And the Great Walther signed Stephan's call to be bishop-for-life in New Orleans. So much to hide from the laity.

Walther's Pietism is denied. His poor education in rationalism and Pietism is overlooked. Instead, they make Walther the Rosetta Stone of theology, explaining all points and translating every possible obscure reference for us. Needless to say, the most frantic UOJ fan has a discussion blog called Reclaiming Walther. A newer, stinkier version is called Steadfast Lutherans, where posts on justification by faith are removed and this little blog cannot even be mentioned.

The bloated senior editor of Steadfast refers to those supporting justification by faith as "morons." So Luther and the Concordists are morons? How mature. And his junior editor covered up for the notorious sex offender Darwin Schauer when Matt Harrison demanded the threads be erased. Call it company culture. They covered up for Martin Stephan's obvious crimes - he installed a young mistress in his parsonage in Dresden, and re-installed her when Mrs. Stephan kicked her out. The Missouri founders did not see Stephan's syphilis or notice that he was always walking in the woods with young women in the middle of the night. The young women, including Walther's niece, were hanging around Stephan in St. Louis. The neighbors got very suspicious, and soon they were in Perryville, Missouri.

The Steadfast Lutherans were silenced (almost) and decimated by WELS, but Mark and Avoid Jeske's Change or Die! Conference is just fine with Mark the Mortician Schroeder. WELS has forged new bonds with ELCA that will never be broken. Dost thou not see how Pietism has triumphed in the LCMS, WELS, and ELS? They agree in doctrine with ELCA - Walther's dream - the entire world is forgiven without faith. They rejoice in their teaching to sin more that grace may abound.

But now - let's focus on the truth of the Scriptures. These may be familiar. I only do this to get people back into Luther and the Confessions, to see which Lutherans are faithful to the Word of God.

Ft. Wayne quip - "You are not a Christian. You are a Faithian."
What does Luther say?

Jay Webber and Steve Flo -
can you read this plain English from your seminary president?

Steadfast Pietists - repent.

Imputation means counted.
Please read Romans 4:24, then 4:25.

Imputed, counted, reckoned - all from the same Greek word.
Can the UOJ fanatics sit down and read the Greek New Testament?
I think not.

UOJists in WELS never noticed DP Werner reliving Stephan
or Valleskey promoting Church Growth with equal ardor.

Walther has the last word, as always, quoted by the Little Sect on the Prairie,
Jay Webber's tiny group.
Walther was definitely a Halle Pietist and - via Seminex -
 a founder of ELCA.

UOJ - Steve Flo and Others Defend Halle Pietism's UOJ

Luther on Matthew 22:37-39; "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."

"Therefore, what will happen on Judgment Day is that many a maidservant who did not know whether she had done anything good all her life will be preferred before a Carthusian monk who has the appearance of great holiness and yet has loved neither God nor his neighbor. There God will pronounce this sentence: 'This maid has served her mistress in harmony with my commandment, has looked after the house, and so forth; since she has done this in faith, she shall be saved; but the Carthusian, you did what you wanted to do, serving no one but yourself and your own idol; therefore, you are damned.' That will be the verdict on Judgment Day. And it serves the world right." [The House Postils, Vol. 3, p.76]

• Comments

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    Keith Shedron How can the monk's situation, described by Luther, be reconciled with UOJ? The monk has been declared sinless, a saint, and yet God, according to Luther, condemns him of idolatry during his life. Wasnt that sin already forgiven and removed "as far as the east is from the west"? How can God now condemn him for his idols?
    

    Like · Reply · October 1 at 10:43am
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    Steven Flo How is it possible for the wealthiest father in the world to legally bequeath his entire estate to his son, but his son remains poor? Easy! The son merely has to refuse what is his. Legally he is rich, but practically speaking he is poor. You could say...See More
    

    Like · Reply · 1 · October 2 at 8:21am · Edited
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    Keith Shedron But God has not "legally bequeathed" forgiveness to the monk, else he would not be guilty of idolatry, so the illustration really does not work. Does God condemn the monk for a sin that God has forgiven? No, unless God is a liar. What sin can possibly condemn a person that God has declared to be free of sin? UOJ insists that all sins have already been forgiven, which necessarily includes the sin of unbelief. There is no such thing as an unforgivable sin when UOJ is embraced, though Scripture is very clear that such is not the case.
    

    Like · Reply · October 2 at 9:57pm
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    Steven Flo Your premise is wrong. You presume it is impossible for God to declare the world forgiven and at the same time condemn those who "refuse" it. But that is precisely what God does. Jesus proves this at the cross when He prays, "Father, forgive them, t...See More
    

    Like · Reply · October 3 at 2:44am
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    Keith Shedron What sin does God condemn a non-believer for?
    

    Like · Reply · October 3 at 5:41am
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    Steven Flo What sin does God not condemn a non-believer for? 
    
    Again, You presume it is impossible for God to declare the world forgiven and at the same time condemn those who "refuse" it. Again......See More
    

    Like · Reply · October 3 at 2:16pm · Edited
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    Keith Shedron You understand the cited verses very differently than I do, I suppose this is due to my use of reason? So, my reason tells me, when I read Scripture, that justification is by faith, extends only to believers and does not pertain to the entire world. U...See More
    

    Like · Reply · October 3 at 5:21pm
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    Steven Flo Yes, the bible says we are justified by faith. But faith in what?
    1) A God who says, "I have reconciled you and the world. Believe it." ...Or... 
    2) A God who says, "I will reconcile you IF you believe it." ...See More
    

    Like · Reply · October 3 at 11:18pm · Edited
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    Keith Shedron Faith in the promises of God. " "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be save..." UOJ removes the necessity of faith and states that salvation pertains to the entire world, without faith, so that even those in hell are saved, such as Judas. But doesn't justification extend to believers only and not to the whole world? Isn't that what Scripture states? Isn't that what the Lutheran church used to teach?
    

    Like · Reply · October 4 at 3:07pm · Edited
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    Steven Flo What could be more Lutheran than Luther?
    
    Luther says, "Even he who does not believe that he is free and his sins forgiven shall also learn, in due time, how assuredly his sins were forgiven, even though he did not believe it ... He who does not accept...See More
    

    Like · Reply · October 5 at 9:30pm
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    Steven Flo I'm saying the same thing as Luther when I say, 
    "How is it possible for the wealthiest father in the world to legally bequeath his entire estate to his son, but his son remains poor? Easy! The son merely has to refuse what is his. Legally he is rich,...See More
    

    Like · Reply · October 5 at 9:32pm
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    Keith Shedron Great quote from Luther.Unfortunately, it does not apply to the question at hand. The efficacy of the Keys is not in question. If a person rejects absolution, they reject what God gives, through MEANS. God only deals with us through means, a point whic...See More
    

    Like · Reply · October 5 at 10:45pm
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    Steven Flo You digress. Luther's main point does not center on the word "efficacy". It centers on the word "forgiveness"...whether the Gospel is the declaration of "forgiveness before faith" or not. Luther says "before faith". See how clear he is: 
    
    "Even he wh...See More
    

    Like · Reply · Yesterday at 2:22am · Edited
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    Steven Flo Now regarding the Aegidius Hunnius quote from 1594, I have not read the book. From the summary I'm reading here:http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00BFGFMV0/ref=rdr_kindle_ext_tmb it appears Hunnius is right in correcting Samuel Huber for over reaching o...See More
    

    
    

    
    

    

    
    

    A Clear Explanation of the Controversy among the Wittenberg Theologians

    AMAZON.COM

    Like · Reply · Yesterday at 3:17am
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    Keith Shedron I will send a copy, I think you will find it interesting. Hunnius: "We interpret those things that the Scripture contains regarding the redemption and reconciliation of the world (or of the human race) concerning the benefit gained and acquired through...See More
    

    Like · Reply · 19 hrs · Edited
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    Keith Shedron Book sent. Should be delivered by October 9
    

    Like · Reply · 20 hrs
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    Keith Shedron UOJ adherents do indeed state that God works through means, They simply deny that he works through the Word and Sacraments exclusively, so that a person is forgiven, absolved and pronounced a Saint without the need of the Word, the Sacraments, or faith...See More
    

    Like · Reply · 19 hrs
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    Steven Flo Does the Bible speak of a "general reconciliation" of the world in the Bible ... and ... a "personal reconciliation" for a person only after they receive it? Yes! Look at how clear Romans 5:10-11 speaks of this "both/and" reality:
    
    10 For if when we...See More
    

    Like · Reply · 2 hrs · Edited
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    Keith Shedron I understand your argument, but at this point, it must be clear that your argument was not upheld by early Lutherans, such as Hunnius, who claims that the argument is not supported by Scripture or the Confessions. And, fortunately, it does not enjoy universal acceptance by Lutherans today, even in the LCMS.
    

    Like · Reply · 2 hrs
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    Steven Flo And so, is there a general use of the word "Justification" for the whole world...as well as for the individual when he personally receives it by faith? Yes! Look at this "general use" in Romans 5:18 "Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life."
    

    Like · Reply · 2 hrs
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    Steven Flo Hunnius was so right in attacking Huber for teaching a "universal election" which neither the Scriptures nor Luther supported. But how sad Hunnius over reached and attacked the "general justification and general reconciliation of the world" that both...See More
    

    Like · Reply · 2 hrs · Edited
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    Keith Shedron You disagree with Lutheran orthodoxy. Hunnius refutes your understanding of Romans, but, given that you disagree with Hunnius, one author of the Saxon Visitation Articles, I will not include a quote. Note that Huber left the University at Wittenberg because the faculty disagreed with him, not simply Hunnius, so, the staff would disagree with the current manifestation of Huber's error. Fortunately, I have talked to a couple of current LCMS pastors that rejected UOJ outright, one giving thanks to God that a red flag went up when we heard about it and the other apologizing that such a doctrine would be present in an LCMS church. I pray you find opportunity to read the book I have sent. Pax
    

    Like · Reply · 2 hrs
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    Steven Flo Keith, as a pastor, I'm not able to live in the world of theoretical ivory tower theology. I have to hold the hand of those who are dying. Let me ask you, what would you say to one who was dying and said, "I know I have to have 'faith' to get to heaven. I'm just not sure I have enough faith to get me there."? 
    
    Those that deny UOJ and insist one must have "faith" before Jesus can declare them forgiven and saved would offer no hope.
    
    But I was able to give this man (my father) great hope by saying, "Dad, I have Good News for you. Jesus doesn't say, 'I forgive you only IF you have faith.' No, He says, 'I forgave you before you were born! I forgave the whole world! I applied this salvation to you, personally, in Holy Baptism. Believe what's already been done and given!' " 
    
    My father died in peace with faith not in his faith, but faith in Christ who declared him forgiven and saved BEFORE he believed it.
    
    That's why this general justification or reconciliation is so important. It means hope when you die.
    

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    Steven Flo Who could be more orthodox according to Lutheran Orthodoxy than Luther Himself. Again, I'll quote (below) his teaching that the world is forgiven before they believe it and, at the same time, most go to hell because they do not believe this fact that ...See More
    

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    Steven Flo Keith, is it true you are aligning yourself to a small group of pastors and congregations , maybe 6 or 7, that used to be a in a larger group of 15 or so? And that group of 15 or so broke in half because your group denied Universal Objective Justifica...See More
    

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    Brenda Shedron Pastor Flo, not sure where you are going with "aligning yourself to a small group".
    I have been taught the same thing all of my life, but to clarify that I hadn't forgotten something that I don't see in scripture, I sought clarification from a current ...See More
    

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    Brenda Shedron "Now, since it is necessary to believe this, and it cannot be otherwise acquired or apprehended by any work, law, or merit, it is clear and certain that this faith alone justifies us as St. Paul says, Rom. 3:28: For we conclude that a man is justified by faith, without the deeds of the Law. Likewise 3:26: That He might be just, and the Justifier of him which believeth in Christ."
    Smalcald Articles Part II Article 1:4
    

    Like · Reply · 57 mins
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    David Jay Webber It all depends, of course, on what someone means by "UOJ." There have been some clumsy and imbalanced ways of explaining this doctrine in the past which no one should defend today. But the various ways in which Luther explained and taught it do not have "significant error." In fact, they do not have error at all. There are lots of examples of how Luther explained and proclaimed these things in this paper, if anyone is interested:http://www.redeemerscottsdale.org/.../WebberEmmausConfere...
    

    Like · Reply · 55 mins
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    David Jay Webber "Now, since it is necessary to believe this, and it cannot be otherwise acquired or apprehended by any work, law, or merit, it is clear and certain that this faith alone justifies us..." Exactly true. But this begs the question. Objective justification is about the "this" that is necessary to believe. It is not an alternative to the believing.
    

    Like · Reply · 54 mins
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    Keith Shedron Stunning. I wonder if some sort of mass insanity is the cause? Whatever the cause, it is obvious that UOJ is an idol for a select group, one that they will not give it up under any circumstance. I would call that a "hardening". It saddens me a great deal that this abomination has crept into the Church and that it is being taught to people. Lord have mercy on your church.
    

    Like · Reply · 47 mins
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    David Jay Webber Calling the completed gospel that is presented in the means of grace to be believed by penitent sinners, "an abomination," is really stunning.
    

    Like · Reply · 38 mins
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    Gregory L. Jackson I agree with Dr. Luther and Dr. Robert Preus. Webber and Flo - you have no grasp of Lutheran doctrine, the work of the Holy Spirit in the Word, or the key passages. You impose the Rambach-Stephan-Walther nonsense on the Word of God. You are blinded, hardened false prophets.
    

    
    

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    David Jay Webber But other than that, we are still nice guys
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  Steven Flo Jay, no doubt we'll wrestle another day on a different topic, but today....we are on the same team. The paper you sent (above) dealing with UOJ is excellent. 
  
  You said: "We cannot use passages that treat objective justification to prove or disprove subjective justification, and we cannot use passages that treat subjective justification to prove or disprove objective justification. We cannot become one- dimensional in our teaching, so that we ignore either the objective or the subjective side of the whole doctrine of justification."
  
  Theology is the art of making distinctions. You have done a wonderful job on this topic! There is a clear biblical distinction between general justification that is declared to the world and the personal justification that is received by faith. Greg doesn't (or won't?) see it so he has fallen into this one-dimensional thinking and brought Keith down with him...so that Keith is now uttering stunning statements. How heart breaking and sad.
  

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  Steven Flo And I talked to Robert Preus about Objective Justification when I was at Fort Wayne and He fully supported it. The Preus quote that Greg placed above is merely a quote affirming personal justification when a person receives it by faith. Who doesn't agree with that?
  

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  Steven Flo How sad to take one biblical truth (i.e. justification by faith) which speaks of personally receiving the Gospel... and... using that truth to destroy the Gospel (i.e. that God has justified or reconciled the world to Himself through Christ). Dear Lord, take away the blindness.
  

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  Gregory L. Jackson So you think UOJ is the Chief Article? And agree with the Pietists Rambach, Webber, and Knapp?
  

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  Steven Flo Greg, in one sentence, what is the Gospel to you?
  

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  Gregory L. Jackson You didn't answer, Steve. Do you agree with the Pietists about UOJ?
  

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  Steven Flo Ok, I'll answer your question. Then please answer mine.
  
  I don't know Ramback or Knapp. I do know Jay Webber and what he says on UOJ...and he is right. He is right in line with the Word, Luther, and the Confessions.
  

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  Steven Flo So Greg, what is the Gospel to you...in a sentence.
  

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  Gregory L. Jackson Rambach - Halle Pietist.
  

  
  

  
  

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  Gregory L. Jackson Knapp - Halle Pietist.
  

  

  
  

  
  

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  Gregory L. Jackson Walther's UOJ - which he learned from Stephan, who studied at Halle.
  

  
  

  

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  Steven Flo Thank you for the info. So what is the Gospel to you in a sentence? How would you speak it to a dying man who said, "I know you have to have faith to get to heaven. I'm just not sure I have enough to get there."
  

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  Gregory L. Jackson Do you agree with Rambach and Knapp?
  

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  Keith Shedron So, wasn't Walther saying that the first "general justification" was not complete and needed the addition of a decision by me?
  

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  Gregory L. Jackson General and Objective are the same. General in German does not mean the Atonement but universal, each and everyone is justified. As Ed Preuss said, the Hottentotts and the Hindu too.
  

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  Keith Shedron Steven Flo I certainly have been reading material from sources other than the LCMS as much of the LCMS is obviously in error about justification. That said, the church we currently have membership with is LCMS, which we do not attend. The pastor teache...See More
  

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  Ron Pederson A question for those who deny UOJ would be: So God has not forgiven my sins but if I believe He has, then they are forgiven?
  

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  Steven Flo I agree with the statements by Knapp, Ramback, Walther, Webber's paper, Luther whom I've quoted, the Scriptures which have guided all of them to agree with the fact that the entire world is reconciled (2Cor5:19) or Justified (Rom. 5:18). I don't care if the devil said it or even you Greg, I'd agree with it because it is true according to the Word.
  

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  Steven Flo Now Greg, I answered your question. Will you answer mine. What is the Gospel to you in one sentence. More specifically, how would you speak the Gospel to man who was dying and who said, "I know you have to have faith to get to heaven, I just don't know if I have enough faith to get me there."
  

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  Steven Flo Good question Ron. Your question hits the nail on the head. I appears they are teaching the Gospel to be: "I believe that if I believe then I'll be forgiven."
  

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  Keith Shedron I have never heard anyone make such a claim except yourself. Silliness.
  

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  Gregory L. Jackson Funny how UOJists admire each other's talking points from seminary, but you do not know the Scriptures at all. Romans 4 is a chapter on justification by faith, just as Romans 3 is. Christ died for the sins of the world and we are counted righteous IF WE BELIEVE in Him who raised Him from the dead.
  

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  Steven Flo Then Keith, tell me what your Gospel is? What would you say to he dying man who said, "I know you have to have faith to get to heaven. I just don't now if I have enough to get me there."

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  Steven Flo So Greg, what is the Gospel to you in a sentence? How would you speak it to a dying man who said, "I know I have to have faith to get to heaven. I just don't know if I have enough faith to get me there." ?

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  Gregory L. Jackson I made that clear above, Steve. You really need to study Romans 3-5 and the Formula of Concord, Article III, The Righteousness of Faith. You and Webber disagree with Chemnitz and agree with Rambach. Shame on you. The Apology's section on justification by faith would also help you, unless you continue to hide behind classroom quips from the 1980s. Here is Luther's answers to the charge of being a faithian.
  

  

  
  

  
  

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  Gregory L. Jackson Too bad so many of you listened to Scaer.
  

  

  
  

  
  

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  Keith Shedron What is the Gospel? We have played this game in our email exchange. You asked and I supplied a rather in depth answer, along with the following, yet you responded by asking me what the gospel was, indicating that you did not recognize it when you saw it. The Gospel is "I baptize you, in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit." "Take and eat, this is my body; take and drink, this is my blood." The Gospel is that, through His appointed means, God has taken away all of our sins and declared us to be saints while giving us faith to grasp that loving action. John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life.? Notice that "believeth" thing...

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  Steven Flo The Gospel is "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son." That is the general or objective Gospel = God loving and reconciling the world to Himself through Christ. That Gospel goes forward through the Word and Sacrament and crea...See More
  

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  Keith Shedron No, I don't see that at all. You make "believe it" a mandate. Are you seriously saying that you could not point a dying person to their baptism?????
  

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  Keith Shedron You put the burden of "believing" on the dying person and then call it the gospel???? The world is turned upside down!
  

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  Keith Shedron What gives faith to a dying person is God's Word and Sacraments! You seriously don't believe that?
  

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  Steven Flo The "it" they are to believe is: the world is forgiven. Not what you are saying Keith, "The world can be forgiven if they believe it."
  

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  Steven Flo The Word that gives faith through Word and Sacrament is, "You and the entire world are forgiven". That Word creates faith. You Keith and Greg, on the other hand, have a gospel that says, "You and the world can be forgiven if you believe it." You make "faith" a requirement before God can say that He forgives you. That is the error!
  

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  Keith Shedron Faith is created by God, through his appointed means, and in no other way. Telling someone to "have faith" is a blatant sin. You deny this and I cannot express the sadness that I have over that.
  

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  Steven Flo His means declare something! They declare, "You and the whole world are forgiven! Believe it so you may receive it." You and Greg, on the other hand, have a different gospel which says, "You and the others can be forgiven if you believe it." Your Gospel is conditional. The real Gospel is not.
  

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  Gregory L. Jackson For the Pietists of Halle, the Gospel was Universal Absolution, and that is also the message of ELCA. That is why LCMS and WELS and ELCA can have a joint ministry conference this month, arranged by WELS Pastor Mark Jeske. Every time Steve Flo mentions the Gospel, it is not the Atonement but Universal Absolution.
  

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  Gregory L. Jackson The Atonement and Justification by Faith are distinct. The preaching of the Atonement is the action of the Holy Spirit in the Word creating and sustaining faith.
  

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  Gregory L. Jackson Don't ask me, ask the Confessors.
  

  

  
  

  
  

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  Steven Flo For God to reconcile the entire world to Himself is the same as saying God has made atonement for the world world. God is "at-one-ment" with the world through Christ. So now you, be at-one-ment with Him. Or...the same is said when the Scriptures tells us that God is reconciled with the world (objective)...so now you be reconciled to Him (subjective).
  

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  Gregory L. Jackson No Steve, the Book of Concord and the Scriptures are clear. No one declared the entire world forgiven and you have not one hint of it in the Scriptures, only in Huber, Rambach, and the Calvinist translator of Knapp. Knapp said it in German too. But OJ and SJ came from the Calvinist translator. Luther's treasure analogy is very good.
  

  

  
  

  
  

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  Steven Flo I'm sorry you think this way Greg. We are not going to agree and I'm going to have to mark and warn people about your false theology. This discussion is pretty much over.
  
  I am interested, however, in a book I head about that you have written. It has something to do with Jesus having faith for us. Can you give me the web address for it. I want to explore that.
  

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  Gregory L. Jackson It will be in print soon. Much of the work is on the blog now. You disagree with Paul, Luther, the Concordists, and Gerhard. I agree with them. You simply avoid dealing with justification by faith except for cute sayings from seminary days.
  

  

  
  

  
  

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  Gregory L. Jackson Formula of Concord.
  

  
  

  

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  Steven Flo LOL. Greg you silly man. Away with you and the devil now with your spitting and hissing. You remind me of a sassy little kitten. I'll hope for better in your new book.
  

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  Gregory L. Jackson The Confessors make you angry, and Luther makes you act up.
  

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Steven Flo LOL! You really insist on having the final word don't you! It's so silly! (Let's see how far we can go with this).