Profile of Dr. Charles R. Hogg, Jr.
Username: Robb
Full Name: Dr. Charles R. Hogg, Jr.
E-mail Address: pastor_hogg@hotmail.com
Last Logged In: September 05, 2008
Registered: September 05, 2004
Total Posts: 292
Status: Intermediate Member
Denomination: Former LC-MS; now Antiochian Orthodox
Positions Held (elder, pastor, layman, teacher, etc.): Pastor, Professor
Church Website URL: http://stnickgr.com
The set is still available as of this moment. More details:
> All volumes except 26, 27, 47 & 53
> Some underlining, mostly in pencil
> Entire set, new, is $1278
I'm asking $500, you pay shipping.
Thanks!
***
GJ - Notice below, a long blog about the Virgin Mary, which includes a note about reading the articles in Lutheran Forum (the crowd that will lecture at The Surrendered Fort) by Hogg, the EO convert listed above. Also mentioned is Fenton, who denounced Lutheran docrine and joined Eastern Orthodoxy. Fenton worked with Paul McCain, MDiv, on the Missouri hymnal.
Most importantly - Weedon is considered high on the list of Confessional Lutherna bloggers. Oh my. Richard J. Neuhaus was a Confessional Lutheran up until he joined Rome with his Confessional Lutheran brethren, who joined Rome. Here is a list of fellow bloggers on yet another Confessional Lutheran blog: Rev. Wright II Alan Ludwig Pr. H. R. Rev. Rick Sawyer Rev. Jacob Sutton The Rev. BT Ball Pr. Georg Williams Brent Kuhlman Fr. Timothy D. May, S.S.P. Rev. Paul Beisel Rev. Gifford A. Grobien Rev. Rick Stuckwisch Rev. Erich Fickel Rev. Richard A. Heinz Pr. Ralph Tausz Rev. Fr. Robert W. Schaibley David Jay Webber Pastor Foy Rev. Kent A. Heimbigner, Ph.D. Rev. Robert Franck.
What Happened (Weedon Blog)
I was chatting with a friend today. He thinks I'm obsessed with the Blessed Virgin. Fancy that. Actually, I was telling him that what is striking is how often and simply the great fathers of the 16th and 17th centuries speak of the Mother of God's perpetual virginity or the closed womb birth and such from the pulpit and in their other writings. To them it was just taken for granted.
Why was it taken for granted then, but not taken for granted now?
I don't know the answer for certain, but I have a hunch about what happened. It's this: the Churches of the Augsburg Confession retained Latin. That means that they didn't bother to translate the old Latin office hymns. They wrote new hymns in German, of course, but they just kept on singing the old hymns in Latin right alongside the new ones (though the Sequences, unlike the office hymns, were subject to frequent "correcta" - always with copious Scriptural annotations). And those hymns simply shaped their theological endeavor.
In the Magdeburg Book the hymn "Creator of the Stars of Night" is listed as being sung at Vespers throughout Adventtide. It is sung in Latin, of course, and - as throughout the book - Scriptural allusions are provided in the margins. So when in the third stanza they sang of the Lord proceeding from the "closed" Mother, the margin listed the reference to Ezekiel 44:2. They sang it every night at Vespers in Magdeburg during Advent! They grew up shaped by that. Where did Gerhard learn the allusion of Mary's virginity being typified in the burning bush, in Gideon's fleece, in Aaron's rod that budded? It was all in the hymnody! The LATIN hymnody. The hymnody they didn't translate and just kept using. UNTIL.
Until rationalism and pietism swept through the Lutheran Churches, and then Latin was the first thing axed. And suddenly all the hymns that had nurtured and sustained a way of reading and thinking about the Scriptures were no longer there. Only the post-Reformation hymns that had been composed in German largely remained. And it wasn't too long after this that we see a marked change in how the Scriptures themselves were being read and understood.
As I said, this is all Weedon's suppositions - I have yet to do all the "hard data work" as dear Dr. Nagel would call it - but I truly suspect it explains a LOT of what happened. Take up your old German Gesangbuch and look for the hymns that we regard as standard from the Latin. They're not there. It's a loss I think we've still not reckoned with, and it explains why Lutherans of the 21st century simply don't know how to DEAL with what their forebears in the faith simply took as axiomatic.
posted by William Weedon at 4:52 PM
28 Comments:
Paul T. McCain said...
Maybe your friend was right?
5:42 PM
William Weedon said...
Well, I DO believe miracles still happen... ;)
6:45 PM
Anonymous said...
I went to Fenton's new church today. I looked for you on IM but you're not logged in. I ducked out before anybody talked to me and I didn't accept any of their bread. I was supposed to reject it, right?
7:52 PM
Rev. Benjamin Harju said...
Bill,
Good post. I think with the disappearance of the hymns, the sad darkness of the Reformed and general Protestantism seeped in to fill their place. Now with the Liturgy itself with all good hymns being chucked in many of our parishes, just imagine the chaos that looms ahead for us in the future. I'm afraid that the loss of the Semper Virgo and the Closed Womb delivery of Jesus will seem like small potatoes compared to what's coming our way in 50-100 years.
BTW, your new ID image is nice, but it's big. Now, maybe it's because I can only get a 26K connection at best, but it sure does take a while to download. I'm sure it's because my connection speed is so poor out here. It still looks nice, though.
8:42 PM
Rev. Benjamin Harju said...
Dear Anonymous,
The only reason you would need to refuse their bread is if you wish to refuse their love and friendship. That's the point behind their baking it by hand, blessing it, and giving it to those with whom they cannot admit to the Sacrament.
Thinking of my own parish situation, it sure would be confusing and disheartening if a new face showed up, but darted out so no one could say "Welcome" or "Hi, and you are?"
Why did you visit their parish? Did you intend to behave this way from the get-go? I wouldn't be pleased to find out one of my parishioners did something like this in one of the other churches in town.
But maybe this all sounds worse than it really is? Perhaps I just have the wrong idea here.
What is going on here?
In Christ,
Rev. Benjamin Harju, Pastor
St. John's LCMS, Hastings, IA
St. Paul LCMS, Oakland, IA
8:53 PM
Anonymous said...
The bread they were offering me was the same bread they were receiving in communion. Wouldn't accepting it be like communing at the alter of a non-Lutheran church? I didn't go with plans to refuse the bread. I didn't know they were going to do it until I read it in the ordo. As for darting out right at the end, I did plan that as my current pastor actually recommended that I don't visit at all because he thought J.F. would corner me and try to convert me on the spot. J.F. headed downstairs and I bolted for my car.
8:59 PM
William Weedon said...
Dear Jenn,
Pastor Harju is quite right about the bread - though it LOOKS like the Eucharistic bread, it is called "antidoran" - "instead of the gift" - and is offered merely as a gesture of friendship.
I don't think Fr. John would have tried to convert you on the spot, though he would certainly love to have you as an Orthodox Christian because of his conviction that Orthodoxy is the one true Church.
What did you think of the liturgy? It's remarkably similar, I suspect, to Zion's liturgy. The Divine Service of the Lutheran Church and the Liturgy of the Gregorian Rite of the Western Orthodox have a true kinship. And certainly Fr. John is a powerful preacher of the Gospel. Still where we differ, we differ, and no similarity in liturgy can gloss over the difference.
9:32 PM
William Weedon said...
Pr. Harju,
You may of course be correct, but we also see in LSB the Lutheran faith expressed beautifully in numerous new hymns written in modern English. That gives reason to hope as well. Time will tell. It's a battle of passing on vs. erosion.
9:33 PM
Anonymous said...
Doh! It's not the same bread? *facepalm* Oh well. At least now I know.
Yes, it's remarkably similar in liturgy. It felt a little informal but I think that's because I'm used to organ music and a grand-looking building with great acoustics. The hynms were all about martyrs and Mary. It seemed somewhat lacking in gospel by comparison. Also, there was unfamiliar terms used here and there so I didn't feel as though I could give any Amens. I merely observed for the most part.
9:47 PM
Omar said...
Interesting,
The disuse of Latin - in hymns or otherwise - must be why a Roman Catholic friend of mine(who's a convert from the Baptists) thought it strange that when I was examing Lutheranism I started delving into Latin. The two seemed mutually exclusive to him and Lutheranism had, in his mind, become synonymous with hostility toward Latin... sigh
If the early Lutherans wrote new hymns in the vernbacular without translating the old Latin hymns, they must have had a high regard for teaching Latin.
very, very interesting
Fr.Weedon,
How would the rise of Rationalism and Pietism in Lutheransim cause Latin to be regarded as less favorable? Was it Latin itself or more importantly theological points evident in these writings that were a thorn in the side of these streams?
Pax
10:25 PM
William Weedon said...
Omar,
The rationalists and pietists both disliked the Latin itself. They thought of it as being stuck to far into the Romanism that Lutheranism ought to have extracted itself from. The Lutherans thought entirely differently: the Latin was just the language that they'd grow up with and they treasured it and used it regularly.
10:30 PM
William Weedon said...
TOO far. Grr!
10:34 PM
The Unknown Lutheran said...
Pastor Weedon:
I too am accused of having a Marian obsession. The phrase "Icon of the Church" is stuck in my mind.
One can have a healthy obsession with the Blessed Virgin though, and I am sure you have such a healthy interest as all I have read from you or heard from you on IE never goes against the fact that Christ is absolutely central.
Anonymous:
You have nothing to fear from Fr. Fenton. Talk to him if you get the chance. He has no supernatural powers to convert high church confessional Lutherans :)
You hit the nail on the head by writing about the lack of gospel.
He needs to hear this. If you get the chance, tell him. The typical old school cn type Lutheran crowd would call me a hyper-euro and sacerdotalist and despite my absolute respect for the OHM, the Gospel, the Truth, spoken by a layperson is just as powerful as what is spoken by the ordained. If you know the Truth, speak it! Fr. Fenton or not.
I have a dream in which Fr. Fenton comes home to Wittenberg, where he belongs, where we need him as well.
11:17 PM
Fraser said...
Dear William,
Have you have read Charles R Hogg Jr's articles on this theme in Lutherna (sic) Forum?
Fraser
