The Cradle Roll at
Doebler's Stealth Church
Anonymous has left a new comment on your post "Radloff Preaching at Church From Scratch - Doebler...":
Greg, Jim Radloff retired earlier this year. He is no longer in Grenada. If Joyce were a pastor, it would have said 'pastors'. They are not implying anything. What better way to honor God and your help meet by including her in your ministry. In a way aren't we all 'ministers'? For a man with your intellect, education and talent as a writer it is a tragedy that you stoop to these antics continually on this blog. How is this building the body? You call WELS the church shrinkers and yet how big is your parish? Where is your parish? A virtual online church with just you? It looks like your church as already shrunk.I will continue to pray for your peace and I would encourage all who visit this blog to do the same. Have a very blessed Christmas.
Joe Krohn, former member of Gunn's stealth congregation, current member of Doebler's Rock and Roll Church, semi-stealthy blogger at:
http://randrchurch.blogspot.com/:
An Apology for a 'Rock and Roll' Lutheran Church.
Blogger Profile:
Joe Krohn
Gender: Male
Location: Cedar Park : Texas : United States
About Me
I am a member of Christ the Rock in Round Rock, Texas and part of the worship team. I started this blog to temper the legalistic opinion of some of our brothers and sisters in our Lutheran fellowship.
GJ - Denomination? Confession of faith? Buehler? Buehler? Anyone?
***
GJ - Joe is a regular poster to Ichabod. His grasp of English is equaled by his knowledge of Lutheran doctrine. Pastor and Mrs. Jim Radloff is the traditional caption. Joe probably knows how quickly WELS is moving toward women's ordination, which is just a confirmation that women are teaching men and in authority over men in WELS.
Aren't we all ministers? No.
A Lutheran minister is called to preach the Word and administer the Sacraments.
The Church and Chicanery crowd thinks a big apostate church is far better than a smaller faithful congregation. Just look at the crazed grins on the faces of the WELS pastors at Drive 08. Does it matter to them that their hero Andy Stanley is opposed to infant baptism, baptismal regeneration, and the efficacy of the Word? Not at all.
I don't have to hide my name on my blog or in my comments. I do appreciate the messages from Krohn. They are often wrong factually and consistently wrong doctrinally. No wonder they make his hide bristle.
I am surprised anyone reads this blog. I am shocked that a few people have survived the onslaught of false doctrine--from WELS/LMCS/ELS/CLCs--and still want to hear the Word of God.
9 comments:
Mr. Krohn, your contention that the phrasing does not infer the Office of Public Ministry on Joyce Radloff would have had some justification if taken alone and out of the overall context that WELS Church Growth history has given such introductions. The problem is that almost all introductions of the new WELS Church Growth public ministers are using the same structure - Pastor X and wife. Most ELS and WELS pastors call women's activities in the Office of the Public Ministry either a grey area, that the Pastoral Office is not the Office of Public Ministry or saying that that the church can separate portions of the Office, by human right, give them to women and call them divinely instituted. The WELS, and by association the ELS, has Staff Minister programs to train women to be in the Office of Public Ministry. Your following statement, "What better way to honor God and your help meet by including her in your ministry. In a way aren't we all 'ministers'?" destroys your first attempt at denying any inference. You think that it honors God to include a woman in the Public Ministry - the Pastoral office. Read these verses carefully, 1 Corinthians 14: 33-38 (KJV),"For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints. Let your women keep silence (3) in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak (4); but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak (4) in the church. What? Came the word of God out from you? Or came it unto you only? If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments (5) of the Lord. But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant."
Here are comments from Martin Luther.
Martin Luther in his “The Private Mass and the Consecration of Priests,” states, “For we must believe and be sure of this, that baptism does not belong to us but to Christ, that the gospel does not belong to us but to Christ, that the office of preaching does not belong to us but to Christ, that the sacrament (of the Lord’s Supper) does not belong to us but to Christ, that the keys, or forgiveness and retention of sins, do not belong to us but to Christ. In summary, the offices and sacraments do not belong to us but to Christ, for he has ordained all this and left it behind as a legacy in the church to be exercised and used to the end of the world; and he does not lie or deceive us. Therefore, we cannot make anything else out of it but must act according to his command and hold to it. However, if we alter it or improve on it, then it is invalid and Christ is no longer present, nor is his ordinance.”
In a response to an ELS pastor in March of 2007 I posted the following from Martin Luther.
In contention with my statements that women are forbidden by Scripture to teach in the church, along with being forbidden to usurp authority over men in the church, you stated, “Actually, the Bible teaches that the kind of teaching forbidden to women in the Church is that which would exercise authority over a man.” The verse I was referring to was 1 Tim. 2:11-12 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. The verse states that women are not to teach nor to usurp authority over the men. The Greek word ‘nor’ in this verse is ‘oujdev’ transliterated word ‘oude’. In Greek it means but not, neither, nor, not even. So this verse states that women are not to teach neither are they to usurp authority over the men. There are two things they cannot do. They cannot usurp authority over men in the church. They cannot teach in the church. The other verse in the Bible where oude is used is, 1 Timothy 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen. This word separates both activities and does not allow the usurpation of authority to describe the kind of teaching that is forbidden. Martin Luther states in “Lectures on 1 Timothy” (Luther’s Works, Vol. 28) 1 Tim. 2:11. “Let a woman learn in silence with all submissiveness. I believe that Paul is still speaking about public matters. I also want it to refer to the public ministry, which occurs in the public assembly of the church. There a woman must be completely quiet, because she should remain a hearer and not become a teacher. She is not to be the spokesman among the people. She should refrain from teaching, from praying (ie: leading in prayer) in public. She has the command to speak at home. This passage makes a woman subject. It takes from her all public office and authority.” Women are not to teach in the church and in this statement Luther does not include the usurpation of authority as the affect of the teaching. Note also that Luther believed that the public ministry occurs in the public assembly of the church which is the local congregation gathered around the Word purely taught and Sacraments rightly distributed.
From Scripture alone it is clear that it is not giving honor to God when anyone includes their wife in the Public Ministry of the Word. And if anyone hold value in Martin Luther's words he also condemns such actions and thoughts based on God's Word.
In Christ,
Brett Meyer
Brett, Wow. Don't cut yourself splitting all of those hairs...Where did I ever say it was OK for a woman to preach in church much less be a part of PUBLIC ministry? Ministry can and does mean many different things. YOUR paranoid over the top literal translation of all your sources should send me rushing back to my church to urge all women to shut up, period. "That's right Mrs. Krohn, I don't want to hear one more peep out of you! Not one more verse of 'A Mighty Fortress is Our God."
Brett, take some of your own advice from Corinthians and stop confusing people.
JK
Mr. Krohn you state, "What better way to honor God and your help meet by including her in your ministry. In a way aren't we all 'ministers'?"
Mr. Krohn, what other ministry could you be referring to when talking about the pastor of a church other than the Pastoral Office? What inclusion do you feel could be attained for thier wives in the Pastoral Office? When talking about a pastor's ministry - how many different things are there that are not part of the Public Ministry of the Word? What part of Christ's admonition to His Church regarding women in the church is not to be taken literally? Which, in your opinion, are figurative?
I would have you take me literally though and by doing so realize that I didn't address women singing in the church. Rather than splitting hairs I am addressing what you said 'specifically' and showing you and those reading this where it is inconsistent with Scripture.
In Christ,
Brett Meyer
I do appreciate that you post your name to your comments. Thank you.
Church Growth probably got its biggest start in the Pep Rallies held at Northwestern College, where the rock and rollers would be on the microphone, and they'd have skits following a program. Once they got into the ministry that translated into rock and roll music following a loose program, and the skits are the children's sermons, i.e., changing the church service into a pep rally.
Another development was for years at Northwestern Prep and College they no longer required people to be members of a mass choir, however, I heard that now a Martin Luther Prep, Watertown, everyone must now be in in at least one choir. What does that translate into? If you can't read music, or can't read the alto, tenor or bass parts, you might as well just have an overhead screen with the words and a bouncing ball to follow along. Thus the WELS was pumping out pastors who saw no added value to having hymnals in congregational hands over having an overhead projectors with just words. It's an big invitation for Church Growth to take over the synod.
Brett, in your first post you are equating the Office of the Public Ministry with the Pastoral Office. That is the LCMS view, not the WELS view. WELS believes the Office of the Public Ministry may exist in varied forms; forms which the church may prescribe.
"Brett, in your first post you are equating the Office of the Public Ministry with the Pastoral Office. That is the LCMS view, not the WELS view. WELS believes the Office of the Public Ministry may exist in varied forms; forms which the church may prescribe."
Bingo.
JK
You are correct. I reject the WELS and now the ELS (fortunately for your longstanding fellowship with them they recently changed their doctrine concerning the Public Ministry of the Word to match your own) doctrine concerning the Pastoral Office, the Office of the Public Ministry of the Word. I contend that your very own Adolf Hoenecke’s thesis on “The Teaching Office, Das Lehramt” makes the following statements which reject the notion that the WELS can create offices by human right and still call them divine. That the WELS can separate functions of the one office Christ instituted and still call them divine and place divine calls to women for those offices.
Adolf Hoenecke, "The Breslauers continuously call upon Eph. 4:11 (compare 1 Cor. 12:28ff) like the papists for here a divine institution of distinct offices with their churchly duties is supposedly taught. But against this: 1. This verse does not talk about a divine institution of distinctions of rank between offices laid out by grade in steps. (The Roman church numbers their seven thus: Priests, that is, bishops and presbyters together, deacons, sub deacons, who together make up the three higher grades, acolytes, who attend the bishops and is now the highest of the lower grades, the readers, the exorcists, and the doorkeepers. The last four grades are designated the minor orders and merely receive the lesser consecration which does not impint the character indelebis, and therefore it is permitted to leave these grades.) Namely, 1 Corinthians 12:28ff. shows that what is being talked about is rather functions and aptitudes being used for the best of the church. In one and the same context the gift of healing, or doing wonders, and of tongues are mentioned. If these are not offices distinguished according to grade and rank with different power and dignity of office, or if they are not made such through being mentioned, then those in the Ephesians passage aren’t either. In other words, when different offices are mentioned they are still not enumerated in such a way as to set forth offices truly and essentially distinguished, that is, distinct offices distinguished by rank.
2. Here the true functions contained originally in the office of the episcopacy, or office of presbyter, or ministry of serving the church in word and sacrament are brought forth. These were first joined in the apostate and so also they can remain joined in the ordered office of bishop, presbyter, or pastor. However, on account of need, as in the office of deacon, or on account of a great advantage to be gained, when there were people in the congregations who had received a greater aptitude for one or the other functions than the already present presbyters, the functions where conferred to various people.
Chemnitz says, the apostles have included these different grades together under both the names bishops and presbyters. An especially important proof is Col. 4:7; Eph. 6:21;
where Paul designates Tychikus who clearly was an evangelist, as a minister and fellow servant, and 1 Pet. 5;12 where Peter calls himself a fellow elder and like unto the presbyters (v. 2) as pastors and shepherds.
Chemnitz finishes his explanation with the clarification that the enumerations of Eph. 4:11 and 1 Cor. 12:28 only show which grades the obligations and duties of the one and the same office of the church or preaching office was distributed. Finally he sets forth the following fundamental principles:
a. That the Word of God does not establish any particular number of grades.
b. From the scripture it is clear that at the time of the apostles the same grades were not present in all congregations.
c. Even so it is clear from the scripture that the separation into grades was not a necessity such that not often all the functions were unified in one person. And furthermore, the entire order was a matter of freedom and was implemented according to need and for the good of the church.
d. All grades were not offices in addition to the preaching office but were themselves true offices of the ministry of the word and sacraments.
Note: Chemnitz states that "Eph. 4:11 and 1 Cor. 12:28 only show which grades the obligations and duties of the one and the same office of the church or preaching office was distributed." And, "d. All grades were not offices in addition to the preaching office but were themselves true offices of the ministry of the word and sacraments." Also note that Hoeneke says, "Comment: Whoever has a legitimate call of a congregation, he is a pastor and needs nothing else in order to be a pastor. Ordination is nothing else than this, that the church recognizes and confirms someone’s call. This consists of two things. Most importantly they see the call as legitimate and therefore confirm it as divine. Secondly, they confirm the one called as competent and that that the congregation can call him with good consideration as before God. Therefore, we teach concerning ordination that it gives no one the preaching office because the scripture says and commands nothing (concerning this). Only that which God commands in his word must occur and is necessary." Even here he confirms that only that which God commands in his Word is necessary. Thus the freedom the WELS has to create new positions other than the Pastoral Office which Christ instituted are not necessary, although allowed, and thus are not divine.
In Christ,
Brett Meyer
Bruce Church,
You wrote:
"Church Growth probably got its biggest start in the Pep Rallies held at Northwestern College, where the rock and rollers would be on the microphone, and they'd have skits following a program. Once they got into the ministry that translated into rock and roll music following a loose program, and the skits are the children's sermons, i.e., changing the church service into a pep rally."
I am wondering if you could give us an example of what you assert that Church Growth got its biggest start in the prep rallies at NWC. I am really interested in your allegation.
I realize you gave a general example in your post: "where the rock and rollers would be on the microphone, and they'd have skits following a program.Once they got into the ministry that translated into rock and roll music following a loose program, and the skits are the children's sermons, i.e., changing the church service into a pep rally."
If you could give specific examples of men who participated in NWC pep rallies (what they did then and how that translates into their adopting Church Growth methodology) and how that was the "biggest start" of Church Growth methodology poisoning the WELS, that would do wonders to back up your claim.
I would really like to hear of these examples. If you gave specific examples, it would give credence to your post.
Worship Team! What is a worship team? Do they worship better? Do they improve worship? What? What? What?
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