Below are words of encouragement were e-mailed to me today by a fellow brother in Christ. I have one question for you before you get encouraged.
How many more hours are men and women going to waste arguing about how to deliver the Gospel message to those who are lost and destined for hell?
Traditional, contemporary, inside, outside of the box, pastoral, lay lead ministry, focus on the older members, wait and see if the youth come back to church, your unfit to be involved in ministry, stay away from our members here is a directive from our board etc.......
I would love to hear just an ounce of God's thoughts on what He thinks of the WELS "the only denomination that holds to the true teachings of the Bible" and how many hours, day's and week's we spend ripping each other and our respective ministries apart as one by one the people who need to be rescued with the truth we brag about holding true to die.
Safe ministry? There is no such thing. Ministry is messy, stop worrying about getting dirty and dig in for Christ! What I have learned is that apart from God man can do nothing, and that our minds are hostile towards Him. Isn't ministry supposed to be about God's Kingdom purpose?
Brian Arthur Lampe
CEO-Ministries.com
Words of Encouragement;
We live in a day when leaders are often driven more by public opinion than what is right. We are each called to live a life based on obedience-based decisions, not public opinion. Living a life of obedience will often go against the tide of public opinion. Jesus lived a life based on a purity of purpose and mission. The Pharisees wanted Him to conform to the rules of religious tradition. The result was He died because He lived to obey an audience of One, not public opinion.
Are you challenged to live a life of conviction versus pleasing others? Be true to what God has called you to do no matter the cost.
Since when does "getting along" require that we neglect to discuss issues where we disagree? If some critiques have not been presented in a civil fashion, then let us repent and make future comments in a more loving manner.
I have noticed recent Quarterly and Forward In Christ articles and commentary that is clearly aimed against contemporary worship and some forms of outreach. These articles were very civil and were presented in a loving manner. I do though, find that many of the arguments presented in those articles do not apply to the contemporary WELS worship of which I am familiar. I still encourage that these issues be discussed and not ignored. While the WELS is united in doctrine, we are not always united in how to apply that doctrine.
I do not see that the WELS is spending much in the way of resources in such discussions, so I do not see it as wasting valuable resources. I see the discussion of these topics as a necessity. I expect that such discussions may go on at some level for decades. That may sound bad to some, but I see the alternative of ignoring these important issues as far worse.
in love for Christ
Mark Bergemann
LCMS is on the verge of being ripped apart over this issue - any time spent studying what God's Word has to say about this (or any other issue) is not time "wasted", IMO.
I have no idea what has caused you to feel the frustration coming across in your post, Brian, but I encourage you to give whomever is frustrating you the benefit of the doubt that they aren't just out to puff up their own pride. "Bragging" to hold to the truth is no more dangerous than "bragging" that others don't care about the lost as much as you do (I don't mean "you" personally), but I suspect that there are stronger principles at the heart of your disagreement than simple pride and its probably worth the patience to try to understand each other better.
Here are two things I know for certain:
- Sharing the Gospel is never at odds with holding to God's Truth (in fact, they rely on each other). It it feels like these are conflicting goals, then its time to revisit our theology
- Not all methods of sharing the Gospel are "neutral" with regards to God's Word. (i.e. there is more than one right way, but there are also many wrong ways - many of which are very popular today)
Mark Salzwedel
Brian, Mark, etc.,
It's too easy to think that love for pure doctrine and love for souls are at odds with one another.
In fact, I cannot love souls as Jesus wants me to unless I love the pure teaching of his Word. "The words I have spoken to you are Spirit, and they are life." (Yet thousands of people walked away from Jesus that very day, precisely because of his words! John 6:63.) "Faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the Word of Christ." Simply put, announcing God's Law and Gospel, sin and forgiveness of sin, is the be all and end all for Jesus' church. We confess as Lutherans that the doctrine of Justification by grace alone, through faith alone, is the article by which the church stands or falls.
So it's also true that Satan attacks the church by refocusing on things other than the forgiveness of sins. Therefore it is absolutely essential we watch out for one another in doctrine and life. Matt. 18 (the whole chapter) focuses us on that holy and difficult duty of watching out for each other's souls.
Yes, sometimes sinful pride can say "we are the only orthodox church body." (Although we do not make that claim, actually.) And yes, sometimes sinful pride can say, "Get your nose out of what I say and teach! I don't need the admonition to watch my life and doctrine closely (1 Tim. 4:16), especially not from you! I don't see the problem. Besides, I'm trying to save the lost, and you're just getting in my way!" Paul wrote most of his letters to address problems in doctrine and practice. In Romans and Ephesians (the 2 churches that didn't have problems) he also strongly commands that we guard our doctrine.
Never be quick to judge or condemn a brother. And never be too frustrated to learn from a brother. There's a very narrow, very difficult Lutheran middle road between "don't ever change anything," and, "everyone did what was right in his own eyes." I consider it 100% certain that in the WELS, there's some of #1. And I consider it 100% certain that in the WELS, there's some of #2.
Dennis Rardin
Mark, I was glad to see your post. I may not have been paying very close
attention to what has been posted lately, so I have not picked up on the not
getting along, either. I do have some questions and am looking for some
discussion from others:
We hold a contemporary service. We use contemporary language. We 'lead' with 3
contemporary Christian-type songs, go to confession, hear basis from scripture
for the sermon then sermon, offering with prayers requests, communion, then
close with 3 songs. I have struggled to get the other musicians to understand
that there is a theme for the week's service. They may be coming around. Some
of the singers get it. Anyone else confront that or handled that same
situation?
Another 'thing' that has been bugging me. As I'm "on duty" at the organ, I am
sometimes getting music prepped and not engaged in worship, when that happens
during a prayer, I notice, from the balcony, many looking around, getting
something from a purse, etc. This may be my sinful nature, but I find myself
wondering "Do they know that this is an opportunity for them to pray along with
the Pastor? Are we teaching/reinforcing to these people that all you have to do
is show up and the pastor will pray for you?" "Do most of the people like the
contemporary service because they are entertained?" I do not see many singing
along. We even take CW hymns and jazz them up with guitar and drums. This is
hard for some from our 'band' because "those tunes just don't flow." I have
begun introducing the songs and tieing them into the theme with the lyrics, and
singing the refrain and verse without the rest of the band, so they could get a
jump on the song, but
singing still seems to be so-so.
So, I also wonder, are we teaching the people that there is value in how we
worship? Are we teaching them that it is okay to enter church with the same
reverence as a theater or symphony hall? Is it good to socialize with members
of the church? YES it is. Why do you think they built fellowship halls? (Sorry,
my editorial) I worry that we are not giving respect to God in his house. Some
may say that I am too high-church. I believe that symbols help to illustrate.
Pictures on the screen during a sermon. Processing out with the Alleluia banner
at the end of Transfiguration and minimal organ as a postlude. Alleluia is
gone, Lent is on the way. Should I feel like I'm out of touch because of a
tradition that is not contemporary? Or would that practice be viewed as
contemporary?
This actually is the tip of the iceberg. Even though I grew up in small town
MN, served in large WI conservative church, was a member of a mission church
meeting in garage of parsonage, served in metro medium-sized church/school, and
now at a larger church, I still don't feel as if I've experienced enough to help
with these issues. So, let's talk. I probably have opened up too many topics,
but let's follow one and see how the Holy Spirit leads us through these
situations by His Word.
Thanks,
Troy Yerks
Trinity
Bay City, MI
Let me quote a visiting professor to Asia Lutheran Seminary on the underside of the China where 1/4th of humanity lives, many without Christ. Upon leaving a very successful three and a half months of teaching in a way similar, yet dissimilar, to what we do at Mequon, he said to me, "I had no idea. I had no idea."
What he referred to is that experience and exposure to the huge challenge of sharing Christ with the world is circumscribed by our three score years and ten and the places and people with whom we have had the privilege of ministry. Of course there are many ways, shapes and forms in which the Gospel is shared! Of course.
Snippets of the apostolic witness found in Acts emphasize five things. Jesus of Nazareth was really a man and this Jesus was God's son. Third and fourth, he really died and really rose again! All four in accordance with God's foreknowledge and inspired prophesy. And fifth, the impact is repentance and the forgiveness of sins. About what music (contemporary synagogue or what the kids were humming in Antioch?) we are told little. I suspect that is so that we could follow in the footsteps of the man of Tarsus who said from the bottom of his heart that he would be whatever God asked to be in order that some be saved.
A more contemporary church leader and former president of WELS, Carl Mischke, once closed a WELS convention with words that I will paraphrase from memory, "We must examine everything we say and examine everything that we do so that more are saved."
Grace and peace from Hong Kong, John C. Lawrenz
Thank you Troy, for bringing up your concerns. I also look forward to hearing from others on this subject.
I am not an advocate for contemporary worship. I am an advocate for choice in worship styles. If I had to choose one style of worship to attend, it would be straight from TLH. CW would be second. Contemporary would be third. My real preference, is to attend a variety of worship styles. In this I am a person of the times. I like choice in worship. I do not buy the argument that each congregation must have one worship style, nor do I agree that the WELS needs to have one national worship style.
I firmly believe that all of our worship styles should clearly reflect our confessional Lutheran doctrines (in other words the Biblical position). Each worship service must center on justification. Overall, the prevailing theme of the hymns should be justification. I expect all worship services to have a confession of sins.
I do not see the concerns voiced by Troy as generically applying to any one particular style of worship.
Troy mentions a problem with some musicians not following the service theme. Does each musician picks their own music? Doesn't someone coordinate all the music for the entire service? All aspects of any style service should be well coordinated.
Worshiper not paying attention is a problem in any style service. People need to be lovingly corrected. At least they attend worship. We will always have worshipers who are at differing levels of faith. Occasionally I do not pay attention and am doing something else. No one can pay complete attention at all times (at least I can not).
One complaint about contemporary worship is that we are "entertaining" worshipers. I do not fully understand this complaint about contemporary worship. We should set a high standard in how we plan and execute all styles of worship. People in our society expect quality. In days gone by, worshipers had to sit on unpadded pews (or in some eras stand the whole time) in unheated and non-air-conditioned churches. Do we want to live in the past? People expect good musicians, including good organists. People expect a professional looking worship folder and bulletin. People expect a well written and well delivered sermon. I understand that some consider a PowerPoint of the hymns to be entertainment, but many today consider it normal. A well done PowerPoint shows Christian background images that enhance the words of the hymn. Why is this bad? The fact is that we live in today's society, not the 1960s. I remember the 1960s well. I could be very happy worshipping in a 1960s style service even today. Many people today were not yet born in 1960, nor even in 1970 or 1980. They have higher expectations that I do, but even I have higher expectations than I had in the past.
Mark Bergemann
John,
That was pure gold - thanks
Don Patterson
I guess the concern I had with entertaining aspect is that the 'band' is there
to 'rock out' the congregation and 'get them moving.' I used single quotes,
because those were exact words from some of our contemporary band members. Not
many of the people sing with the group, and they applaud. Now, make sure you
understand me. I don't have a problem with clapping in church with the correct
motivation. If it seems like a concert, and we're receiving applause during a
worship service, I missed the boat! If there is applause at the end of the
service and it is understood as giving thanks to God for the talent He has
granted us, then I feel comfortable and like I'm not sinning. I feel as if I am
sinning getting applause while giving praise to God. All glory should be going
to him and not to myself or others that are creating music.
Troy Yerks
It sounds like I too might have some issues with your contemporary worship if I was in attendance.
I value congregational singing in worship. Maybe your worship leader needs to try various methods of encouraging singing by the worshipers. Maybe worship could be a topic for a Bible study at your congregation. Our worshipers sing the songs at our monthly contemporary worship just like they do at our traditional services.
I am always uncomfortable with applause in a worship service. I seem to recall someone mentioning that at one of our 4 weekend services a few weeks ago, there was applause for the visiting high school choir. Applause is a rare visitor to our congregation, so it is noticed when it happens.
Mark Bergemann
In my judgment, much rock/pop/jazz/soul music simply does not lend itself to congregational singing. That doesn't mean it can't ever be used, of course, but it's one more challenge to consider.
Dennis Rardin
Prof. Lawrenz,
Ummm…. “We must examine everything we say and examine everything that we do so that more are saved” ???
You know that sounded fine to me… at first, but… on second glance, it seems to me to be a bit “off.
When I look at the statement the first thing that strikes me is the statement’s focus – who’s doing what for what reason. The doer in the statement is “we”, the focus seems to me to be squarely on what “we do” (not exactly the best focus when one is talking about salvation – yes, it is “ok” in a sense to ascribe God’s work to those who apply the means of Grace, but… ) and the reason we are to do what the statement says is so that “more are saved.” More than what? More than you or I would have saved otherwise? That doesn’t sound right… More than God would have saved otherwise? That doesn’t sound right, either. (In fact, is it not true that in one sense all of our collective efforts will not add one soul to the list of those already written in the Book of Life?) So, is it really mandated that we are to examine everything we say and do “so that more are saved”? And if not, what then?
Perhaps we should look at this another way and perhaps we should ask a different question… as Christians, what is our desire and our call? Well… as a Christian, aren’t we called to love God and our neighbor – and aren’t our lives to be living sacrifices, lives of service to God and to our neighbors? And as Christians, isn’t it by definition our desire that all be saved… and doesn’t the new man in us desire such with fervor and with a deep love for the lost? Indeed, isn’t that is exactly what God desires, as well (so much that he was willing to become man, so much that he was willing to take our sins on himself and suffer the ultimate punishment for those sins – so that we too might become adopted sons in God’s family, co-inheritors with the Son, so that we might live forever with him in heaven)?
But as far as how we serve God and our neighbor, don’t we do so first and foremost by faithfully living and serving in the various vocations in which God has placed us – and striving at all times to do so in full accordance with God’s Word (“For all men, in every vocation, ought to seek perfection, that is, to grow in the fear of God, in faith, in love towards one’s neighbor….”)? And indeed, isn’t the way that I grow in the fear of God solely through the application of his Word, specifically, the Gospel, and through the sacraments?
And if we are serious about what God’s Word says, won’t we always strive to proclaim it fully in accord with its truth and purity? Put another way, yes, we are to follow the footsteps of Paul. But in so doing, dare we excise from those footsteps Paul’s constant focus, indeed his persistent emphasis, on teaching and proclaiming pure doctrine? In short, as a Christian, I love God’s Word – I love to hear it, read it and meditate on it… and I love to proclaim it – in each case always in all of its truth and purity. That love for the Word sits side by side with my desire that all be saved – with the love that I as a Christian necessarily have for my neighbor. There is no disconnecting pure doctrine from the love a Christian has for his neighbor, for as Dennis aptly noted, “I cannot love souls as Jesus wants me to unless I love the pure teaching of his Word.”
With best regards,
Harvey Dunn
Dear C & C Brothers and Sisters,
Please understand that my comments are purely out of Christian love and that I want to insure that my daughter who is 4 years old now has WELS church that will be able to reach and apply God’s Word to her when she gets into her teens and college age.
I personally witnessed my Father coming home from council meetings almost monthly upset and telling me how “yelling” and “arguing” would take place in the basement of the church. Who knew what the topics were, but every month with the fighting?
I agree that talking about issues is healthy, and I don’t want to see traditional worship disappear. However, I would like choices but for those of us who are unable to worship our God with all heart, soul, and mind because they are held hostage by the refusal of being open minded to new ideas.
I clicked and pasted this from our WELS web-site;
Read John 8:31,32.
3. What does it mean to be “set free” in the area of worship forms?
We are free to choose the best forms to present Jesus’ teaching, the truth that sets us free.
5. How do you keep from studying the Scriptures and coming to false conclusions?
Keep Jesus as the center of everything you study.
Shouldn’t that be enough?
Keeping Jesus at the center of everything we study?
I get some of the contemporary music is unhealthy, and I actually love most of the hymns but not with organ. I have been introduced to KOINE from St Marcus and it’s amazing what they can do with hymn.
In closing my goal isn’t to change the way churches currently perform worship, I am just wanting to open up new churches that are outside of the outside of the box idea.
www.gotocore.com is a great ministry. I would encourage you to e-mail Pastor Ski who’s church isn’t even open yet, and no members. Ask him how much love he has experienced from his fellow brothers as they begin to launch into new un charted territories.
God Bless
Brian Arthur Lampe
CEO-ministries.com
Brian,
I have been reading the responses to various types of worship and note with interest
how many of them seem to fit your description of your father's reaction to council meetings.
We seem to have the same reaction in our council meetings, too. Now, I'm not particularly
interested in getting into the "theology" of council meetings but I thought that there might
be an application of this church council characteristic to the primary discussion at hand involving
worship services!
Somehow we manage to discuss, to an alarming degree, the size of the bug that we're choking
on while missing the whole point of the discussion. Frankly, I have seen the "liturgy" question
discussed between pastors and lay people wherein the debate ends up in a stalemate. The
lay people will say, "I dislike hymn #nnn because it's so old and stifling!" The pastors respond,
"But the words are so Bible-based and meaningful!" And it grinds to a halt. Of course, the
lay people are talking about the music and the pastors are discussing the words. Both groups end up frustrated and little, if any progress is made in furthering Christ's kingdom.
I believe that the Christian doctrine taught by WELS is right on. But, let me say that I'm scared
of how we use adiaphora to justify, defend and continue to bolster our arguments in clearly non-Biblical situations. The American response in defending the status quo is: "Circle the wagons!"
My concern is that when "we circle the wagons," we are then excluding the lost sinners out there that need a risen Christ in their lives.
We are now beginning a new season of Lent and Easter. Maybe we need to really look at how we can proclaim the gospel in a totally new way including our worship services.
I await the deluge of responses...
Peace Through Jesus!
Ray Miller
Brian,
Actually I'm glad you originally posted, because I think we have a dialogue going regarding worship. I don't think we should have sides for traditional or contemporary. It need to be the best of both. I feel we need to blend both together. The mix of that blend depends on how we will least likely cause offense. This stems from motivation factors and how spiritually mature others are. Many variants to delicately work through.
I too remember many people complaining about arguing at church meetings. Sometimes it was on the side of called workers, sometimes it was on the side of lay leaders. Most of the time, it seems in retrospect, that it boiled down to "good old German stubborness." I grew up in heavily German/Norwegian/Sweedish area. The Norwegian side seems to not leat things bother them so much, perhaps that's why the ALC/LCA/ELCA have become so allowing. I digress.
Anyway, thank you for putting this out.
Troy
Brothers and sisters-
I must be amazingly naive. I have no idea what you're talking about. It's not that I don't understand the concept of a discussion descending into a shouting match; I've just never seen it happen at a church council or voters meeting--at least, not without it being addressed and resolved.
When a pastor and a lay person disagree about a hymn, in my experience they both learn from it and grow from there. I don't doubt that you guys have experienced what you have experienced, but I'm a guy who gets pinned fairly often as being "old school WELS," and I don't even know what you're talking about.
I preach the gospel. I make use of the best of what I have available to me in worship. I study the Word. I don't worry about whether or not more souls could be saved if I did this, that, or the other thing, so long as the thing that I am doing reflects both love for those souls and love for the Word that is the one thing that has the power to save them. I don't feel I have a side to come down on in the contemporary/traditional debate because every time it has come up in a church I've been a part of, it either results in a blending where everyone learns a little something and grows together or it results in someone finally showing their true colors doctrinally after a long period of getting upset about things that weren't really at the core of their issues. And I certainly don't resent the amount of time it took to get to the core of the issue, as that was God at work to call those precious souls to repentance.
Act from a sincere, repentant heart that desires the last Word to be God's, and deal with your brothers in accord with that Word. And I do mean deal with them. Don't paint the WELS as having the problems that you have seen in your own life or church, tempting others to worry about the state of pastor/lay relations in their own congregations, the state of our theology as a body or about our collective love for the lost. That just creates an atmosphere of suspicion and avoids the debt of love we have toward one another to deal together in truth and in love. It even tempts us to look outside our church body, which does, in fact, have a pure confession, to listen to blind, false teachers who have bigger issues than our own.
God bless your service, everyone. And may he abundantly bless the Word that you sow.
In Christ,
Aaron Frey
I agree and won't post or answer on this venue anymore.
Brian Lampe
All of a sudden the number of e-mails in my in-box went up. I knew there
must be some sort of discussion regarding contemporary worship going on.
Everyone seems to have an opinion on this topic and there usually isn't much
middle ground.
If traditional worship works best in your effort to serve your congregation
and reach out with the gospel message to your community, by all means, use
traditional worship. If blended or contemporary worship work best for that same
purpose, use it. If you or your church doesn't like a certain worship style,
that's ok, but please don't condemn those who have a different approach to
worship that is not your preference. God has given us freedom in worship.
Let's not try and make rules where rules do not exist. The WELS theology can be
shared in numerous ways that are pleasing to God.
One other thing - I strongly believe we need to re-examine the way we are
doing ministry as a church body, especially when it comes to outreach. The 2007
synod statistics are evidence of that, especially when it comes to adult
confirmations:
Total Adult Confirmations 3,669
The number of adult confirmations in 2007 is the lowest number since 1994. The
number of adult confirmations in 2007 is 183 (-4.8%) less than in 2006.
Breakdown
• 491 congregations (38.4%) had 0 adult confirmations
• 206 congregations (16.1%) had 1 adult confirmation
Almost 55% of congregations in our synod did not add more than one soul to
the church in 2007. For a church body that strongly emphasizes the importance
of evangelism, these statistics should alarm us. If we really care for the
souls of the lost, we need to reflect on what we can do better and possibly
different so we are less of an obstacle to the Holy Spirit. Let us continue to
strive to worship and serve the Lord with all our heart, soul, mind, and
strength.
My 2 cents - thanks for your time.
In His Arms,
Phil Boileau
While I am 100% in agreement that we should always be asking if we're doing our best, I strongly believe that we need to be very careful with how we use statistics. This statement certainly could be taken to be saying that if my church was among the 55% that added one or fewer members to its roster, then we are doing something to be an obstacle to the Holy Spirit. I fail to see any Scriptural support for such a statement. I don't believe we have any promises from God that our numbers will continue to increase, and we have several allusions to the contrary, that the little flock will continue to get even more little as the love of most grows cold.
This is used so often that it becomes a cliche, but by the standard recently stated, it seems like Noah and Jeremiah, and many other biblical heroes, must have been obstacles to the Holy Spirit, because they didn't win many adult confirmands either.
We dare not wear our small-ness as a badge of honor, but we also dare not see it as a sign that we're doing something wrong. As Pres. Schroeder explained so well in his recent FIC article, we don't define success by the numbers of the results. How many people we contact with the gospel is up to us, but how many adult confirmands are added to our churches (i.e., how many people are converted) is purely in the realm of the Holy Spirit. And we really can't glean much from those numbers, except to be reminded that the Holy Spirit will work when and how he desires, not according to our dictates.
Rik Krahn
Pastor, Martin Luther Church
Neenah, WI
www.MartinLutherNeenah.org
The numbers are important because they are souls - souls that aren't being
reaching with the saving Gospel message. How can it not hurt to see so many
congregations without any adult confirmations?. I never said that God has
promised us that our numbers would increase, but don't you think it is worth
examining why we aren't reaching more and why numbers continue to shrink?
I fear complacency in ministry. It is so easy to make excuses for ourself.
I am not judging the faithfulness and motivation of any of our called workers
who are serving in our church body, but I do believe that it is healthy for us
to continually examine what we are doing in ministry. (I need this reminder
myself.) I have been hearing about the flock growing smaller and "love growing
cold" for at least the last 20 years or so. Instead of giving in to this
direction, we need to need to come out even stronger and more determined for the
Lord and His desire for us to reach the lost. We don't know when the Lord will
come again, so we need to do as much as we can while we can.
I don't know if more souls will come to God's kingdom or not (the Holy
Spirit is the one who works the faith) in congregations in our synod, but
regardless of our perception, we should be willing to do anything short of
sinning to reach the souls of those who don't know Jesus.
In His Arms,
Phil Boileau
Phil,
I agree that 3,669 adult confirmations is embarrassingly low for our 1,284 congregations. Even worse is that many congregations go for years without a single adult confirmation.
Even though almost 55% of our congregations had 1 or less adult confirmation in 2007, does not lead to the conclusion that "Almost 55% of congregations in our synod did not add more than one soul to the church in 2007." Other columns in the statistical report are additional indicators of how many souls our congregations are bringing to faith. There were 730 adult baptisms, 2,119 professions of faith, and 6,923 child baptisms.
I agree that we should be reevaluating our outreach both as congregations and as individual Christians. Outreach by our individual members to their friends, relatives, associates, and neighbors (FRAN) is almost always far more effective at reaching the lost than congregational projects. That said, my congregation has greatly expanded its evangelism budget over the last few years. We are starting several new and innovative programs. The programs that bear fruit we expand, and the programs that bear little fruit we change. Our congregational outreach still has many weaknesses, but we are working to change that.
When quoting statistics as I have here, it is also prudent to point out that the effectiveness of outreach should NOT be primarily judged by the number of souls it brings to Christ. Outreach must be judged first by faithfulness to Scripture. Several Old Testament prophets brought so very few to faith. Some today would call these prophets failures. God calls these prophets his faithful witnesses.
Mark Bergemann
I used to feel this way too - but I've come to see the dangers in this attitude.
God is in control of the numbers - not us. Putting stock in numbers and "what works" tends to divert us from what God has asked us to do in the Great Commission - baptize and teach.
What's most sinister is that the devil uses our fixation on numbers and our sinful pride (which causes us to believe that *we* control the numbers, not God) - to trade off clear, cross-focused teaching for what brings in better numbers. This is Evangelicalism in a nutshell.
Now, I've argued on this board before about the need to be willing to improve our methods (but I won't make the mistake of referring to their "effectiveness" again) ;-) BUT - I think the focus of our self-evaluation needs to be on how faithful we stay to God's Word in our teaching, how focused we remain on the Cross as our central message, how well we do at communicating these truths clearly, etc. I suppose we could arguably also measure how many people we share the Word with, but even there we have to be very aware of a slippery slope that will tempt us to make concessions to get people to "like us better". Seeker-sensitive churches inevitably become seeker-centered churches! (I heard that slogan from an Evangelical, and I think its true.)
A story a former Pastor of mine gave really stuck with me, and I've repeated it in some Evangelism training at my current church. On one hand, the Bible makes it clear that lost human souls depend on us ("how will they believe if they have not heard..."). On the other hand, we know that God will save all who have been recorded in the Book of Life. I've come to see our role in Evangelism much the way I see my 3-year-old's role in "helping" me shovel my driveway. First I go out and start shoveling in nice, neat rows. then, my 3-year old excitedly tells me he wants to "help", and starts smearing snow all over what I've already cleared. After a while, he has enough and goes into the house excitedly telling Mom how much he "helped" dad shovel the driveway, after which I go back and clean up his mess for him.
Remember - God prepared our "good works" in advance for us, including evangelism. I know that in reality God doesn't need my help, and in fact the only thing I can really accomplish is to make more work for Him to clean up my mess - but at the same time I rejoice that I have the privilege to take part in my father's work. When I get lazy, I remind myself I have work to do. When I start feeling either self-important, pressured, or anxious, I remember that my Father's really in control of every lost soul - not me.
Mark Salzwedel
Well said!
A few other points should be made before we beat-ourselves up with statistics:
- overall, the WELS is doing as well or better than most denominations (including Evangelicalism). The lack of growth we are feeling is largely a trend against Christianity in our culture in favor of more pluralistic faiths.
- Over the long term, many churches that experience explosive growth tend to experience explosive declines not far later on. Witness what Willow Creek has come to see about their growth over the years - they were not developing any deep roots and have huge losses through the back door.
- Another huge point that often gets lost - for every Evangelical megachurch that seems to be growing explosively, there are a dozen smaller churches shrinking. In other words, a lot of the "growth" is not really souls saved - it is people drifting from other churches of similar denominational backgrounds. So - if our focus is on growing our congregation, these churches are successful - but laregly at the expense of many sister churches. The net gain isn't all that large - if at all.
- To be fair in comparing ourselves to the past, we need to realize that for most of 2000 years the main source of the Church's growth has come through our expanding families. With the late 20th Century trend of shrinking families, our growth is likewise shrinking. Our main "Evangelism Prospects" have historically been our own children - and the best way to continue to do that has to do with strong Bible Studies in our churches and homes - it has nothing to do with outreach programs.
Mark Salzwedel
It is my experience, that when people on opposite sides of an issue at church, discuss the issue at length, they often find that they have more common ground than at first thought. They also often change their views at least a little. This may or may not resolve the issue, but it usually makes the situation far better than before a lengthy discussion took place. With a large group of people involved, the discussion process can take a long time. Changing your own opinion, or the opinion of another, or both, takes time.
My career is as an electrical engineer. Like many engineers, I tend to sound like a know-it-all and one who is unwilling to listen to opposing opinions. Others often perceive me in that light, even though I do desire to listen, and I do sometimes completely reverse my opinion. There are many like me who strongly support their position and seem to be unwilling to listen to the other side. Please give such people many chances to hear your opinions. Consider them (people like me) to be weak in that they are slow to listen and fast to speak.
in Christian love for my brethren,
Mark Bergemann
So let's look at an example from the Bible and see what lessons we can learn from it:
II Samuel 6:5 (David was bringing the ark to Jerusalem) "David and the whole house of Israel were celebrating with all their might before the Lord, with songs and with harps, lyres, tambourines, sistrums and cymbals." Maybe what our members are saying is that they want to worship "with all their might." (On a side note, I know a lot of people who don't celebrate with their voice, me included, because we can't hit the notes in the hymns. I love to sing, but a lot of times I can't so I don't. That's very frustrating.)
After the death of Uzzah, when David had consulted the Law on the proper way to move the ark, and the procession continued, here's what happened:
II Samuel 6:14-15: "David, wearing a linen ephod, danced before the Lord with all his might, while he and the entire house of Israel brought up the ark of the Lord with shouts and the sound of trumpets." There's that "all his might" thing again. What does that mean? How does it apply to us? Have you ever celebrated the Lord with all your might? Isn't that the environment and atmosphere that we are trying to create with our worship services, no matter what the style?
Then along came the traditional liturgy supporters, or the contemporary service supporters, or the "we've-never-done-it-that-way-before" group, or whatever faction you can think of.
II Samuel 6:20-22: "When David returned home to bless his household, Michal daughter of Saul came out to meet him and said 'How the king of Israel has distinguished himself today, disrobing in the sight of the slave girls of his servants as any vulgar fellow would!'"
"David said to Michal, 'It was before the Lord, who chose me rather than your father or anyone from his house when he appointed me ruler over the Lord's people Israel - I will celebrate before the Lord. I will become even more undignified than this, and I will be humiliated in my own eyes. But by these slave girls you spoke of, I will be held in honor.'"
I don't think there's a worship style in existence today that won't offend someone. But if that worship is done "before the Lord," and to "celebrate before the Lord," then the offense is due to the weak faith of the offended.
In response to that I ask: Why would any Christian put up judgemental barriers in front others, preventing them from worshipping God "with all their might?" Instead of preferring one style over another, why not take joy in the the edification that others are receiving from their worship? After all, it's not about me, it's about God first and then others.
Here's a suggestion to take our minds off ourselves and our preferences. No matter what type of worship style it is, no matter what our preference is, why don't we try to worship God with all our might.
Oh, and don't forget how this saga ended - God's displeasure at Michal's criticism of David: II Samuel 6:23 - "And Michal daughter of Saul had no children to the day of her death."
Thank You,
Matt Plocher
Amen Brother!
Brian Lampe
I think this is where the discussion breaks down on forums like this - because we all have different perceptions in our head about what we are arguing that can't be conveyed well in a discussion group - and we end up arguing over things we really don't disagree about. Its easy to make blanket statements and argue about things like "contemporary worship" when in the particulars we're envisioning completely different things and arguing past each other. Maybe it would be constructive for someone to post a particular "contemporary" order of service as a talking point if we want to discuss anything more specific.
Here's a point I'd be careful about, though. On one hand you state " it's not about me, it's about God ", but on the other hand most of your argument is about "me" getting edified and worshiping "with all my might" - it seems to me that that's putting the emphasis of worship on "me", not God. It also can be very tricky for us to discern the difference between what is "worshiping with all my might", and what is "me enjoying this experience with all my might" - we need to be careful we don't confuse those things - and its easy to do.
My other concern is this statement:
”I don't think there's a worship style in existence today that won't offend someone. But if that worship is done "before the Lord," and to "celebrate before the Lord," then the offense is due to the weak faith of the offended.”
This may be true - and better to have a millstone around my neck than to cause one of these little ones (or weak ones) to stumble! This is a case where the "strong" must give way to the "weak". However, just as important is that we aren't too quick to label those who disagree with us as "weak" before we carefully listen to their arguments.
I think you are right in that our attitude about questions like these has more to do with what is God-pleasing worship than the particular instruments we use, song styles we choose, orders of service, etc. However - those choices are not independent from these theological and brother-loving concerns either - they tend to flow out of them.
Just to be clear - I'm all for freshening up many of our hymns, orders of service, etc. Depending on your definitions, I'm even OK with a non-liturgical form of worship (in the narrow sense) - but that's a far cry from anything goes either, and frankly most (but not all) of the attempts I've seen to be new or novel in worship tend to leave behind critical aspects of sound, God-pleasing worship - which is one reason you'll probably initially be greeted with skepticism about "contemporary" worship by many others who have seen this for themselves. Have patience and talk about the particulars with them, and leave open the possibility that, like me, you will learn some things from them (and this may or may not be the right forum for that.)
Mark Salzwedel
Well said:
"Let us praise God with all our might".
May I expand this to:
"Let us praise God with all our might and lovingly encourage others to do the same".
I see this as a foundational reason for much of the debate on worship style. Maybe I'm reading too much between the lines, but I also see this as the motive behind most of the points made recently here on ChuchAndChange.
When some criticize some worship as "entertainment," it may be they wish to have the worshipers praise God with all their might, and they think that is not happening.
When some point out worshipers who are not paying attention or not participating in the service, it may be they wish to have the worshipers praise God with all their might, and they think that is not happening.
God evaluates not only our thoughts and actions, he especially looks at our motives. Our motives should be based on trust and faith in God. I believe that Michal's criticism of David did not flow from faith. If it had been based on faith, then things would have turned out differently. Mary, in faith, questioned God's plan, when she was told she would have a baby. God explained his plan to Mary and did not punish her for questioning God's plan. Zechariah, from lack of faith, questioned God's plan and was made mute until John was circumcised.
We can in a God pleasing way and out of faith, question worship styles, evangelism methods, and anything else. Such questioning can be a learning exercise for us all. I have learned much from those who questioned what I was doing and how and why I was doing it.
Change agents, who are on the leading edge of doing things in a new way, often receive much more criticism than those who continue doing things the same way as in the past. I see this as very reasonable. People need to be educated as to the purpose and need for the change. Some changes are good and some are not. In many cases it is hard to know. The old way is known and the new way is unknown. I have been a church leader in many areas for many years. Some times I am a change agent and other times I am not. If you wish to minimize criticism of what you are doing, do NOT be a change agent. I believe that a good change agent is one who is able to lovingly and patiently and repeatedly explain the change and why it is good.
Mark Bergemann
I've probably exceeded my posts for today - I haven't seen my last one go through. I was just reflecting on the Scripture quoted by Matthew and was struck by an observation regarding the portion of the account that was skipped over:
6 When they came to the threshing floor of Nacon, Uzzah reached out and took hold of the ark of God, because the oxen stumbled. 7 The LORD's anger burned against Uzzah because of his irreverent act; therefore God struck him down and he died there beside the ark of God.
Interesting that in worship we need to struggle to keep both of these perspectives in balance - "worshiping with might" while not losing reverence for an almighty God - and worshiping him on His terms. I guess I had never noticed that the accounts of David and Uzzah's "worship" were so intertwined before.
Mark Salzwedel
For what it's worth... The key to understanding the OT ascendancy of King David and the crash landing of King Saul respectively, one hear's Samuel's inspired words, "Man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart" (1 Samuel 16:7). God knew Uzzah and his heart even as God knew Cain and his heart. Ditto for King David and for Abel. Saul's daughter Michal thought David undignified when he danced before the ark. She was truly her father's daughter. Saul with a wink and a nudge tried to get Samuel to see the "advantages" of having a big sheep slaughter and the political payoff of parading of the captured Agag before the troops. Saul looked every inch a king, but his heart was a nest of demons.
I wrote to C&C (after a long hiatus) this week in the context of the contending for the truth around the outward appearance of worship. The responses (some public, some private) have been across the spectrum. I pray, of course, that the God who loves me will send his Spirit to those who read what I wrote and what others write. I make no claims to special wisdom. Some will choose to take my choice of words in the kindest possible way. Others will read into this or that expression something unintended. God knows my heart. Do we presume to judge at times too quickly. Like Michal? Who among us is an Uzzah or a Cain or a Saul? Who among us is a David or an Abel? God knows.
There is perhaps (just a suggestion inviting others to think as I am thinking) a tendency to contened earnestly for the faith with too much reliance on our ability (individually or corporately as WELS) to thing we have to (or can) get it right every time. Who of us would not really like to to have complete control of our lives and our faith and our words? I would! Alas, since the fall in Eden none of us controls a thing. Not really. It's a lie of Satan that we have "open eyes" to "be like God" and "know good and evil" and "never die." The Spirit opens blind eyes, restores in us the image of God in Christ, gives the gift of discernment, and shows the path to eternal life. If we control anything at all--to our own benefit and for the eternal welfare of others--it is by the grace of God in Christ and by the working of the Spirit whom Jesus sent to work in us through Word and Sacrament what God wills. God alone controls. Through law and Gospel. We serve.
Also in the way we worship.
John C. Lawrenz in Hong Kong
One of the things that strikes me when we consider statistical numbers is that we don't always take into consideration other things that may be going on within our outside of a congregation:
1) We may have a congregation that is growing with lots of new people being brought in (either through adult confirmations, professions of faith or transfers), but it really doesn't show in the statistical report because the pastors and elders are doing their jobs when it comes to working with and dealing with delinquents.
2) A congregation may be in a "dying" community, such as a rural area or a small town. I wonder how many of our Michigan communities are "dying" right now due to this economy? If you have a small town where population is stagnant (no one moving in for the past 5 years, for example), or a town where the major employers are shutting down and people are moving away for work, it shouldn't surpise anyone if this is reflected in church attendance and membership. I believe we have quite a large number of congregations in such communities. Not all of us are blessed to live in growing metro suburbs.
3) In a small rural community a church may be doing lots of evangelism work--it may not show on the stats, but the pastors are working with people in area nursing homes, where residents have one foot in this life and they're almost ready to enter the next. A pastor's work in such a situation will not necessarily show up in the annual statistics, but more and more people are hearing the gospel and will rejoice with us in heaven.
Stephen Kurtzahn
