Heard ppl tell Ski tonight "Love that u don't hide the fact u r Lutheran when u preach." love that we are true to doctrine & still reach ppl
about 2 hours ago from Tweetie.
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GJ - That is why they call this mission The CORE, so everyone knows it is a Lutheran Church fronted by an Imax, a popcorn stand, gourmet coffee, and Wi-Fi.
The website URL does not hide the Lutheran identity at all:
gotocore.com
I hear the strains of "O Lord, Look Down From Heaven, Behold," every time I see the website address.
Since the Pricey Executive Assistant is communicating with Ichabod via Twitter, please answer these questions:
1. How can someone study under Babtist Andy Stanley, copy Craig Groeschel's sermons, and remain true to Lutheran doctrine?
2. The comments you record seem to come from area WELS members, so did Fox Valley need a 41st WELS outlet? Wouldn't it be cheaper to have a popcorn/latte service at St. Mark Depere and get a $1 million grant from Thrivent for innovation?
PS - Thanks for removing the duct tape Flash movie from the website. That kind of "evangelism" is so old that the two of you were on trikes when Rick Miller shopped it around in S. Lyons. And it was a foolish mockery of the Word then, too.
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Anonymous has left a new comment on your post "A Woman Twits - The World Listens":
I think you really hit the nail on the head here. The CORE is designed to take WELS members who hate Christ-centered worship from surrounding congregations and plant them in a "relevant" church where Jesus is buried under popcorn kernerls.
It is obvious from Ski's website that he is targeting people who dislike their current church. I thought he was supposed to be targeting people who HAVE NO CHURCH!
Perhaps this explains what "Pastor Tim" of Ski's sugardaddy congregation, St. Peter, did after leading chapel at Fox Valley Lutheran High School. He actually invited the entire student body of Fox Valley Lutheran High School to the CORE for worship.
When something like that happens, are we really supposed to believe Ski isn't here just to sheep steal from WELS congregations? "Hey, kids, do you think worship with Christ at the center is boring? Well, we do to! So come on down to the CORE! What's that? You already attend a WELS church? Don't worry! You won't mistake us for one of those loser churches!"
That's how the CORE "reaches" people.
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Anonymous has left a new comment on your post "A Woman Twits - The World Listens":
This statement really bothers me:
"love that we are true to doctrine & still reach ppl"
Would you expect anything less?
Are you implying that other WELS congregations are true to doctrine and DON'T reach people?
What do you really mean by that statement?
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GJ - The pricey executive assistant is trying to say the Popcorn Cathedral of Rock is both Lutheran and reaching people. They seem to be reaching active WELS members at the moment, but the facts should not interfere with a good plan.
Tim Glende learned from Floyd Luther Stolzenburg that evangelism means taking active members from other congregations and calling it growth.
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Anonymouse has left a new comment on your post "A Woman Twits - The World Listens":
I've got a question for all of you accusing these folks of not having Christ centered worship: How many of you have attended a worship service at The CORE? How many of you have heard Pastor Ski preach a sermon? Just curious.
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GJ - Apparently, very few have heard Ski preach in Appleton. I don't need to travel there, because I can click on Craig Groeschel's or Andy Stanley's sermons.
Ski could provide a typescript of each sermon. I do that. I broadcast and save the the file. I don't have a huge grant and a price executive assistant, so why I can do this part-time when he cannot do it full-time? The fault is with Ski, not with his groupies.
19 comments:
"...the two of you were on trikes..."
That's what kills me about this whole C&C movements. The tactics they pretend are soooo innovative are exactly what screwed up the LCMS in the 1970s.
My Mom (who saw the LCMS get screwed up from the inside) sardonically suggests that the WELS C&Cers have had pudendum envy for the last 35 years--when their conservative pastors wouldn't let them rock out to "It only takes a spark" in church. They sooo wanted to be like the 'cool Christians...
"Greg "Rampage" Jackson defeats the Dean of Mean. You go Greg!"
Hi Professor Jackson.
I don't get it. What does Ski mean?
I went to gotocore.com, and while they readily state that they are a daughter congregation of St Peter, and a member of WELS, they call themselves 'relevant' to 'the culture' and state that they have removed the 'barriers' to reaching people outside the church.
'Relevant' to what? What 'barriers' have been removed?
I see 'feelings' being so important. What, exactly has any of this to do with my salvation? Am I going to Heaven on the basis of how I feel?
We have folks in the pews for an hour. Are we truly concerned about their eternal life if we do anything other than pack that hour with anything other than the Word and Sacrament?
The Means of Grace = the ONLY way to Heaven.
I'm old. I feel pain, tiredness, loneliness, etc. Whether I am saved has nothing to do with those feelings.
Christ, and Him crucified is the way to our salvation.
Don't preach to me about my feelings in my nonage. Tell me only how I am saved.
These 'feelings pastors' have all their degrees. I have but a high school diploma. Why do I get it and they don't?
I will say that at least The Core states its affiliation with St Peter and the WELS.
Jeske admits to being Lutheran, but nothing more.
Any unchurched person would have no clue that the seminary at Mequon is affiliated with WELS.
The thing that Time of Grace and The Core seem to have in common is that they are both ashamed of The Word and Sacraments.
Aren't the called and ordained folks at Time of Grace and The Core forgetting that their first obligation belongs to the life and salvation of those who called them in the first place?
I think you really hit the nail on the head here. The CORE is designed to take WELS members who hate Christ-centered worship from surrounding congregations and plant them in a "relevant" church where Jesus is buried under popcorn kernerls.
It is obvious from Ski's website that he is targeting people who dislike their current church. I thought he was supposed to be targeting people who HAVE NO CHURCH!
Perhaps this explains what "Pastor Tim" of Ski's sugardaddy congregation, St. Peter, did after leading chapel at Fox Valley Lutheran High School. He actually invited the entire student body of Fox Valley Lutheran High School to the CORE for worship.
When something like that happens, are we really supposed to believe Ski isn't here just to sheep steal from WELS congregations? "Hey, kids, do you think worship with Christ at the center is boring? Well, we do to! So come on down to the CORE! What's that? You already attend a WELS church? Don't worry! You won't mistake us for one of those loser churches!"
That's how the CORE "reaches" people.
This statement really bothers me:
"love that we are true to doctrine & still reach ppl"
Would you expect anything less?
Are you implying that other WELS congregations are true to doctrine and DON'T reach people?
What do you really mean by that statement?
Somebody has a statistic out there-- but from my observation, only 40% of my graduating class at Fox Valley Lutheran attended church on a regular basis after graduating. Why?
Work schedules--teens & young adults are the ones working on the weekends and sunday mornings. The CORE offers sunday night services.
Dating life/Parties (I am not condoning the reasons here-- just reporting) Again, Sunday night worship fits more within the schedule of that age group.
Is is wrong to try to keep young adults in church by creating a setting that is more appealing to them? It's somewhere they can get involved with others their age. Somewhere they are comfortable inviting their non-churched friends of their own age group.
I have found it hard to find groups in the Fox Valley area for WELS young adults when I was that age. I know others that went to your Christ the Rock's and others off 41 to just find a social group because "at least they are christians".
Of course it isn't right, that isn't what I was taught at Fox Valley Lutheran H.S. But that is how the Devil works. He takes your need for socialization and puts it before God convincing you that there isn't room for you in the traditional Lutheran church. He takes your priorities and twists them around until you believe that working to pay for college, dating to find the husband/wife comes before church.
Now there is a chance to reach out to the kids that are headed away from church, to let the Holy Spirit build them up through hearing the Word at a church that has a different setting. They most likely have non-christian friends already leading them away.
It may be through those young adults that their friends are lead to God's Grace.
There will be a few members from area WELS churches joining the CORE but God willing there will be many more that didn't have the saving faith before they were introduced to The CORE.
8:11 AM: Your comment is ludicrous. Every WELS church in the Fox Valley area has evening worship one night a week at least. Every WELS church has a youth group with opportunities to socialize. That is not what the CORE is providing. It is providing an opportunity for WELS members who despise Christ-centered worship to join a theater instead. Parroting the same tired lines about relevancy, reaching people where they are, and everything else is just cover for an exercise in sheep stealing.
The opening of the CORE created a buzz among WELS laity in the Fox Valley, but I sensed mostly [human, Old Adam] envy. The innovation! The WELS publicity! The comfy seats!
Perhaps Ski's false flag maneuver will draw the hip, fashionable, A-town wannabee pozer rock-n-rollers out of faithful WELS churches in the area.
Our prayer is that we'll remain faithful, by God's grace, to accept them back when Ski collapses.
Diet O. Worms
Diet o worms said:
"Perhaps Ski's false flag maneuver will draw the hip, fashionable, A-town wannabee pozer rock-n-rollers out of faithful WELS churches in the area."
Yes, and then we can excommunicate CORE!!
I've got a question for all of you accusing these folks of not having Christ centered worship: How many of you have attended a worship service at The CORE? How many of you have heard Pastor Ski preach a sermon? Just curious.
Great question Anon 10:46 but it really doesn't matter. The majority of the accusers will not go to The Core because they know they will not find anything wrong. They will only find out that they don't like it and then their argument is reduced to opinion. And the accusers are not about to let that happen.
8:34AM: I was mostly referring to the post-high school age group. If you think that they feel there is a lot available for them to get involved in, maybe you should ask them.
TRUE-- there is small high school youth groups in each congregation, the same kids you went to grade school with, rarely do the kids from the public schools even come.
Groups for young adults post- high-school are rare, we happen to have a small area singles group right now but those have come and gone, the current group is the 3rd one in the last 10 years. The groups that some WELS teens and 20-somethings are going to at Christ the Rock and Appleton Alliance are much bigger. I know several people that migrated from the WELS churches and are attending
Christ the Rock or Appleton Alliance and their reasons are the social opportunities: H.S. youth group or the young adult group.
TRUE, there are evening worship services. However, Sunday nights seem to work better for this age group. I don't think there are many if any currently on Sunday night in the valley. Many campus ministry groups have or had services Sunday nights. There is a whole community of college kids few blocks away from The CORE.
When churches were still doing German services, there were English services at another close by, both WELS and even in downtown Appleton. This is the same thing, same saving grace, same Bible, same God. Just a difference in style.
Both styles have strengths and temptations. Contemporary, are you giving God the reverence you should? Are you there for the music and the atmosphere and not the message? Traditional, are you just going "through the motions" is it so routine that you aren't paying attention anymore. God is the ultimate judge of our hearts.
If you have not attended The CORE or spoke to the pastor, I don't think you can say that it is not Christ-centered and you can't assume that all the prospective members are from other WELS congregations. Every indication from the web-site supports true biblical teachings in accordance with the Bible and official WELS doctrine. Tag lines from other churches doesn't prove or disprove that the Gospel is being proclaimed in its truth & purity.
Frankly, if the sheep are better served there then let them be stolen.
This is not 'Dancing with the Stars' and a mere battle of "style," re: Contemporary vs Liturgical.
Liturgical, Western Rite worship is a *Theology* of worship; it is not a "style" of worship.
And no, I won't be swing'n into downtown A-town to jam w'id Ski-Dub and his posse, or whatever other uber-hip childish lingo they use. I don't need to visit upon a well-advertised, self-proclaimed whorehouse to "see for myself" what goes on there. I'll take his word for it!
These jump and clap, refrain, refrain, refrain Powerpoint praise bands ought to reminded of what our Lord thinks of vain, repetitious prayers. (Matt 6:7)
Diet O. Worms
I don't remember God saying that only those who practice the Western Rite worship liturgy are going to be saved.
For an idea of what Pastor Ski's band at St Marcus was like, check out www.koinemusic.com. You might even know a few lyrics!
Yes, anon3/9 12:56, I trust that God forgives even the sins of obstreperous worship.
Let's say, for instance, that you had a Father who loved you very much. He loves you so much, so completely, that He would forgive all of your transgressions against what He has said you should do to honor Him and please Him.
So out of love for your Merciful Father, in order to decide how to best express your love for your Father, (and to demonstrate that love as an example for your own children) you use your Christian freedom to choose from the following two options:
OPTION A
Worship in a manner that carefully reminds you that:
your Father asks his children to seek His forgiveness of our sins;
He has indeed absolved your sins through His called worker;
you give thanks to the Lord because His mercy endures forever;
you promise to look after the spiritual life of a baby that just received the Holy Spirit with Water and Word;
you hear the Word from the Old Testament, New Testament and a Pure Gospel message;
you sing a prayer of praise for this Gospel;
your pastor expounds for 20 minutes on how God harshly deals with all who violate His Law; no one can escape from sin, but Christ has redeemed you;
you recite the words carefully chosen by the early church fathers 1700 years ago to simply define the nature of our Triune God, describe the major tenants of your faith, and your relationship with your Father;
you sing verses of harmonious hymns to musically remember God's Law & Gospel;
you pray the words that Christ Himself prayed;
you are physically reminded by tasting the bread and wine that Christ has indeed given His body and blood to forgive you;
sing a beautiful reminder that Christ is the Lamb of God, the blood sacrifice required for sins;
receive a blessing from the pastor, who asks the Father to keep and hold you as His dear children and to further receive His Grace;
as you leave, you warmly greet the newcomer to your service sitting ahead of you, knowing he and his family just got a heaping full measure of the Gospel & Seed Sown onto their hearts (visually, audibly, musically, and verbally).
* * * OR * * *
OPTION B
sing two opening, repetitive songs about how you feel about your Father;
squint through the dazzling lights at the guy in the t-shirt moaning about how awesome that band was and ask the crowd, "Who'z ready to worship our God??!?"
sing another song about how excited you are;
check your email using the wi-fi during the video clip of some guy who said something earlier this morning down at the church up the road;
Twitter how "Gr8 n awesmo r prz bnd is rly. srsly!";
watch the pastor and his wife get on stage and talk about how "hot and spicy" they like their food and their marriage;
follow along the power point song about how great your Father makes your feel;
ask others if they need a refill on their coffee;
catch the reminder from the "lady pastor / worship coordinator" to fill out the survey on spiritual fulfillment;
use the "new church" pledge card tucked in the seat's cup-holder to write down the name of the website for the visiting band ... 'what is it? Coin Enya? I thought she did Irish music?'
wipe the sweat from your brow after hopping around singing another song about how awesome you think your Father is;
remember to pick up your 6th grader from the "children's church" downstairs (she's never had to sit through an actual church service in her life)
stop by the merchandise table down by the visiting praise band to get their CD and a t-shirt for a freewill offering of (suggested) $20;
compare mental notes with how you felt about that service versus the Baptist, Assembly of God, Pentacostal, and B'hai ones that you've tried out lately; shrug; try to remember which one had the best coffee.
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Remember, Western Rite liturgy is a Theology, not merely a "style" of worship.
Is rock-n-roll worship the best way to respond to God's love? Does it edify Him? Does rock-n'-roll give a visitor to worship the full dose of the Gospel in several ways? Is it centered on "me" or "Christ"? Does rock-n-roll worship rely on the Word to work, or does it seek to trip human emotions?
Diet O. Worms
Considering only Jeske: He does not list his affiliation with WELS on Time of Grace.
Most of the folks in the cities other than Milwaukee on which TOG appears on TV would have no clue as to his 'Lutheran' affiliation.
Jeske doesn't direct folks outside of Milwaukee to either Lutheranism or to WELS.
The problem with Time of Grace seems to be that it doesn't direct folks to a church or church body to which they might turn. It seems only to offer Time of Grace to them.
Where's the Means of Grace in that?
Diet O. Worms:
I agree that in the two scenarios the "christian" should pick the 1st. I am trying to play a little "devil's advocate." Because I think that you can be a part of a modern, contemporary service in good taste and just as pleasing to God. I would hope and pray that pastors that were educated a conservative Lutheran seminary would choose that objective.
God wants us to get emotional to praise him. The Bible states "make a joyful noise/ shout to the Lord" & Praise him with the sounding of the trumpet, harp and lyre, tambourine and dancing, strings and flute, clash of cymbals. Our emotions in song reflect the fruit of the Spirit and the joy in our hearts to a gracious, merciful God.
I enjoy singing the hymns I memorized as a child. I enjoy teaching them to my children. I also enjoy the up-tempo "praise" songs of the contemporary genera.
If a church is affiliated with a conservative Lutheran church body it should have "Lutheran" aspects to the service. Confession, Absolution, Law, Gospel, prayer, Baptism, Communion, Blessing etc.
Can it be done tastefully in more modern wording? I think so.
An aspect of "contemporary" worship I enjoy is that it feels more personal. The church is not only there to preach the word but to encourage one another. How can a mega-church possibly provide that when the members don't know one another. Do I need to have that personal feeling to have salvation and would I chose a church on that basis--NO. If it comes down to the fact that the Law & Gospel are taught and acted upon in its truth and purity both places, then I have the christian freedom to choose.
I think someone who did not grow up in a Lutheran church will find some praise songs more "relevant" than hymns. We had Hymnology in school just to figure out some of the hymns we memorized. (Of course not all of the hymns are this way.)
Not everyone is going to like jazz music or country music, the same is true with hymns or contemporary praise music. They are someone else's thoughts of expression to praise God. Much like a prayer. We don't pray the same way as someone else.
Pray your way, sing your way but it is not our place to judge the hearts of others.
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