About 30 years ago, I needed to buy basic church supplies in a small town, so I went to the nearest Bible book and gift store. They always had prominently displayed such recent Evangelical best-sellers as Fascinating Woman (if that was the title). One book caught on, perhaps by that name.
We called the genre - Fundies In Their Undies.
They bowdlerized such current classics as Everything You Wanted To Know about Sex But Were Afraid To Ask, which would have been deemed NSFW - Not Safe For WELS.
Fireproof is simply a new version of the old genre, and another neat way to get the congregation into Babtist theology.
---
Anonymous has left a new comment on your post "Fundies In Their Undies":
Am I missing something? How does this book grow my faith? Does fireproofing my marriage prepare me for the next life?
***
GJ - The Book of Concord will fireproof your soul for the next life.
---
Anonymous has left a new comment on your post "Fundies In Their Undies":
"The Book of Concord will fireproof your soul for the next life."
You do mean Scripture, of course. It's nice to see you placing man's writing over God's.
***
GJ - I wrote it that way to elicit another dollop of sanctimony. Nothing in my statement put the Book of Concord above the Scriptures. Anyone who appreciates the Confessions can grasp that. The Pietists jump at every opportunity to scorn anything that might get in the way of their ecumenical Enthusiasm.
---
Kenneth Schmidt has left a new comment on your post "Fundies In Their Undies":
I saw that awful "Fireproof" movie in an LCMS church I later left. "Fireproof" shows the concept of female headship in the home that is a cornerstone of American Evangelicalism. A Christian husband's sole duty is to follow all the orders and instructions of his wife at all times. If he violates this precept he is a manifest and impenetent sinner headed to hell.
The Glory Has Departed
Thursday, May 7, 2009
Fundies In Their Undies
Subscribe to:
Post Comments (Atom)
18 comments:
Am I missing something? How does this book grow my faith? Does fireproofing my marriage prepare me for the next life?
When the enthusiastic Church Growth hirelings believe that the clarity of Scripture and Lutheran Confessions are a barrier to opportunities for witnessing to a real, relevant and relational God the only option is to teach the false doctrines of the lost. Rejected is the one true foundation that provides the only discernment between Good and evil, false and true. Once they fall to the error of the inadequacy of the Word the veil is drawn over their hearts. Not understanding and unable to see their apostasy. It is only by the grace of God through the work of the Holy Ghost that anyone understands and can abide in the Word. Eventually these apostates will kill Christians thinking they are doing the service of the Lord. Certainly they do this now by killing the souls of those who believe their false doctrines and confess their false gospel.
In Christ,
Brett Meyer
Regarding the credentials argument, Martin Luther himself had a Ph.D. Credentials in and of themselves are critical for minimal standards for most professions (e.g., many jobs require a bachelor's degree) and you cannot practice medicine without a Doctor of Medicine, nor practice law without a Doctor of Jurisprudence. It's not the initials after a name, rather it's the overt statement that says "I am qualified, have been trained, and supervised by others in the profession to work with, teach, and treat others." Having credentials is important, otherwise pastors would not enter the sem for a "Master of Divinity." There is nothing wrong with showing, proving to others that you are "qualified" in the area that you claim to know much about. In fact, it helps to show that you do have credentials in that it begins laying the foundation for a "relationship" to begin. Without credentials, you leave the other(s) wondering, questioning, second guessing, and even doubting what you have to say/do.
"The Book of Concord will fireproof your soul for the next life."
You do mean Scripture, of course. It's nice to see you placing man's writing over God's.
A hazard of these types of books (and the underlying Babtist thinking) is that they gloss over the Gospel and leave just the Law. According to them, once you turn it all over to Christ (with their false decision theology) then your duty is to learn the Law, the strictures of scripture, and Right-E-Ous Living, can-I-get-an-Amen!
We Lutherans seek to live upright and freely in Christ's grace. However, according to those that heap burdens on the saved, once you chose Christ you have to figure out the code of Godly living. Joel Olsteen's newfound aversion to shrimp and pork, for instance, points out such a trap of thinking. The continued existence of dry counties down South in the 21st century is another example. ["Buurp," Diet offers as a rebuke, as he quaffs another Spotted Cow.] http://www.newglarusbrewing.com/
The crux of their false lesson diminishes Christ and the Gospel. Once you start doing what God wants you to, *then* He'll repair your marriage, let your team start winning, and you'll get lots of new things. They want you to think of God as a cash machine, just waiting for you to punch in the right code from the Bible.
Law, law, law. Instead of the law being the bright mirror reflecting our sins and guiding us to the Gospel, they use these preacher-pounded shortcomings as an excuse for overt, ostentatious, Enthusiasm. Out of necessity, the law-Babtist's guitar amp has to go to up to "11."
+Diet O. Worms
Lemkeel, you state, "Without credentials, you leave the other(s) wondering, questioning, second guessing, and even doubting what you have to say/do.
I'll give you that if we're talking about personal opinion on matters unrelated to Scripture. We're talking about what God has said, the very Word of God written in the Holy Scriptures and correction expounded in the Lutheran Confessions. Wonder at, question, second guess, and even doubt everything I say but when it is shown by Scripture and confirmed in the Lutheran Confessions to be God's Word then it is not me who is speaking but God himself. No one is held blameless for wondering at, questioning, second guessing or doubting what God has declared. It's the Holy Spirit's faith worked by Word and Sacrament alone which removes all doubt when it comes to Christian doctrine.
The question of credentials is a nod toward Papistic hierarchy. Much the same as the HTLC WELS quote of, "(women reading the liturgy) is a reading of God's inspired word...and is not considered to be 'teaching' the congregation... Teaching of scripture is an activity that the Lord in His Word has clearly reserved for the Pastor" If my 3 year old daughter read Scripture to a group of people she is wielding all the power of God and everyone who hears it is required to listen, believe and obey it because it is God's Word and not hers. This is why she is not to read it in the divine service.
The issue of credentials when determining whether or not to believe, doubt, question or second guess anyone who reads God's Word purely is a sham and places the individual above Christ.
When these false teachers spew their false doctrines we, as confessional Lutheran's, are to judge what they say and do by Scripture and the Lutheran Confessions wether they are laymen or District Presidents. Galations 2:6
In Christ,
Brett Meyer
"Teaching of scripture is an activity that the Lord in His Word has clearly reserved for the Pastor" If my 3 year old daughter read Scripture to a group of people she is wielding all the power of God and everyone who hears it is required to listen, believe and obey it because it is God's Word and not hers. This is why she is not to read it in the divine service."
Brett,
Are you saying that if my 6 year old daughter recites Luke 2 in a children's Christmas service she is violating God's role for men & women?
By Christmas service I am assuming you mean a Divine Service within the local congregation. Yes. Do you think it would be doctrinally acceptable to have your wife recite Luke 2 in a Christmas service? They are both female. By your question do you mean to imply that age is a determining factor in wether or not God's Word instructs? That age of the reader is a factor in the function of any particular part of the divine service? What part of a divine service is meant to be purely entertainment and not meant to teach and confirm God's Word and will? The liturgy is meant to reveal God's Word and will, instructing the congregation and by the grace of God sanctify them in their faith. It is not Scriptural to have a woman or girl perform this in any form or fashion.
In Christ,
Brett Meyer
Brett,
And if a congrgation's choir sings the psalm, and the sopranos & basses sing it antiphonally, then is it a violation when the sopranos are singing alone?
Or if a treble choir/women's choir sings the Magnificat or any other section of Scripture...is that too a violation?
Anonymous, do you reject what I wrote at 10:10am and if so why?
Most will note that singing was not the issue but the reading of the Liturgy during the divine service. You are chasing an issue stemming from a knee jerk reaction.
Do you reject what I wrote and if so why?
I saw that awful "Fireproof" movie in an LCMS church I later left. "Fireproof" shows the concept of female headship in the home that is a cornerstone of American Evangelicalism. A Christian husband's sole duty is to follow all the orders and instructions of his wife at all times. If he violates this precept he is a manifest and impenetent sinner headed to hell.
I believe that when children, both male and female, recite Luke 2 in front of the congregation during the Christmas service, they are demonstrating to the congregation that their pastor and their Sunday School teachers are training them in the way they should go.
I believe such a situation is analogous to a public examination of confirmation students during a Sunday morning service. Would we argue against female confirmands? Yet by the confirmands' confession of the true doctrine they are proclaiming the Word publicly. Would we say that they're speaking the Word in an authoritative manner?
In services like these, students show the church that they are being properly educated in the Word of God. I believe they are following the precept of Paul: "Let him who is taught the word share in all good things with him who teaches" (Galatians 6:6). And the fact that they are students of the church, which is charged with the task of feeding Christ's lambs, demonstrates that they are in a position of submission, not authority, when they speak the Word in front of the congregation (or in the balcony, if you prefer).
That parents turn Christmas services into entertainment with their ubiquitous digital cameras is reprehensible, to be sure, but it's not the children's fault.
I think there's a big difference between Sunday School children reciting Luke 2 after a month of instruction vs. a pastor letting a twelve-year old girl read the lectionary with a week's notice.
Stan, I agree with that assessment. I can understand why C&C folks would see many on these forums as legalists.
JR and Stan, do you reject the practice of women reading the liturgy?
Yes, Mr. Meyer, I reject the practice of women reading the liturgy.
Yes. That is very clear. Men are the spiritual heads of the household, and that authority extends into corporate worship as well.
You answered the question on the Psalm by saying it didn't apply because it was singing. However, doesn't the Book of Psalms also "reveal God's Word and will, instructing the congregation and by the grace of God sanctify them in their faith"?
I sense a logical flaw in your argument.
Gentlemen, I appreciate and am heartened by your answers that you reject the act of women reading the liturgy. Stan posed interesting points which caused me to rethink my position on children reading for examinations and reciting for services. My initial dilema was to never give in on the efficacy and function of the Word no matter who wields it and not to approve of or condone Stan's statements, "Would we say that they're speaking the Word in an authoritative manner?" which implies that the issue is with the intent of the one speaking God's Word or the physical manner in which it is done. Both of which I reject as both considerations elevate the person over God's Word both in it's unchanging supreme power and authority over everything. Stan also states, "And the fact that they are students of the church...demonstrates that they are in a position of submission, not authority, when they speak the Word in front of the congregation (or in the balcony, if you prefer). " I reject this statement also because all Christians are priests, no matter what age, who have been given the authority by Christ to teach, to preach, to baptize, to exercise the Keys of forgiving or retaining sins and administer the Lord's Supper (but only those men called to do so by the local congregation can do this publicly in the assembly). Since all Christians are equal under Christ, when speaking the Word they in fact have the highest authority in heaven and earth and are not in a position of submission.
JR stated, "You answered the question on the Psalm by saying it didn't apply because it was singing." Actually I didn't make this statement. I avoided answering this as it is separate from the original contention and wanted to first clarify doctrinal confession before continueing. I will here agree that all of God's Word instructs, is supremely efficacious and fulfills God's will. This would include the Psalms. (2 Timothy 3:16, "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"
The issue of women singing and reciting Scripture during the divine service boils down to the office of Public Ministry of the Word, the Pastoral office. Even though all Christians have the Christ given office of priest and have the authority to exercise the activities I listed above (teach, preach, baptize etc. (all activities of the Pastoral Office)) only those called by the local congregation are to administer those activites publicly. This includes men and women. Since it is the role and responsibility of the pastor to conduct all aspects of the divine service in the place of and by the authority of the congegation the reciting of Scripture by children for proof of education and the singing of the congregation (girls and women included) are not specific portions of the divine service reserved for the pastor and as such would not violate Christ's command that women are not to teach nor (neither, or) take authority from the men.
Based on this I retract my earlier statement on May 8th 10:10am above and state that when Anonymous' 6 yr. old daughter recites Luke 2 during the Christmas service it is not a violation of Christ's command concerning women in the church. When I contended with HTLC (WELS) over women reading the liturgy during the divine service they immediately went to women singing in order to justify and condone the women reading the liturgy. I focused on the liturgy during the exchange and hadn't worked through the contention concerning singing etc. until now. I appreciate Stan and JR's willingness to discuss this openly.
Here are some quotes from Luther which speak to the subject of women's roles in the church. http://www.angelfire.com/ny4/djw/lutherantheology.gender.html
"Rather, priesthood and power have to be there first, brought from baptism and common to all Christians through the faith which builds them upon Christ the true high priest, as St. Peter says here. But to exercise such power and to put it to work is not every man’s business. Only he who is called by the common assembly, or the man representing the assembly’s order and will, does this work in the stead of and as the representative of the common assembly and power."
"But let us go on and show from the priestly offices (as they [the papists] call them) that all Christians are priests in equal degree."
"As St. Paul says in Gal. 3:28, you must pay no attention to distinctions when you want to look at Christians. You must not say: “This is a man or a woman; this is a servant or a master; this person is old or young.” They are all alike and only a spiritual people. Therefore they are all priests. All may proclaim God’s Word, except that, as St. Paul teaches in 1 Cor. 14:34, women should not speak in the congregation. They should let the men preach, because God commands them to be obedient to their husbands. God does not interfere with the arrangement. But he makes no distinction in the matter of authority."
"Mostly the functions of a priest are these: to teach, to preach and proclaim the Word of God, to baptize, to consecrate or administer the Eucharist, to bind and loose sins, to pray for others, to sacrifice, and to judge of all doctrine and spirits. Certainly these are splendid and royal duties. But the first and foremost of all on which everything else depends, is the teaching of the Word of God. For we teach with the Word, we consecrate with the Word, we bind and absolve sins by the Word, we baptize with the Word, we sacrifice with the Word, we judge all things by the Word. Therefore when we grant the Word to anyone, we cannot deny anything to him pertaining to the exercise of his priesthood."
"Now you might say: “What kind of situation will arise if it is true that we are all priests and should all preach [1 Peter 2:5]? Should no distinction be made among the people, and should the women, too, be priests?” Answer: In the New Testament no priest has to be tonsured. Not that this is evil in itself, for one surely has the right to have the head shaved clean. But one should not make a distinction between those who do so and the common Christian. Faith cannot tolerate this. Thus those who are now called priests would all be laymen like the others, and only a few officiants would be elected by the congregation to do the preaching. Thus there is only an external difference because of the office to which one is called by the congregation. Before God, however, there is no distinction, and only a few are selected from the whole group to administer the office in the stead of the congregation. They all have the office, but nobody has any more authority than the other person has. Therefore nobody should come forward of his own accord and preach in the congregation. No, one person must be chosen from the whole group and appointed."
"But in the New Testament the Holy Spirit, speaking through St. Paul, ordained that women should be silent in the churches and assemblies [I Cor. 14:34], and said that this is the Lord’s
commandment. Yet he knew that previously Joel [2:28 f.] had proclaimed that God would pour out his Spirit also on handmaidens. Furthermore, the four daughters of Philip prophesied (Acts 21[:9]). But in the congregations or churches where there is a ministry women are to be silent and not preach [I Tim. 2:12]. Otherwise they may pray, sing, praise, and say “Amen,” and read at home, teach one another, exhort, comfort, and interpret the Scriptures as best they can."
In Christ,
Brett Meyer
Brett, I appreciate your willingness to listen to others' viewpoints and react in a way that is logical, thoughtful, and well-reasoned. I only wish this were the case with all commenters of this blog. May God have mercy on us all.
Post a Comment