From the church bulletin, at St. Peter's Lutheran Church, Freedom, Wisconsin:
Pastor Tim will be gone from Monday – Wednesday, May 4-6th. If an emergency arises, please contact Pastor Christenson @ 733-7225 or his cell 585-6998.
Absent is any mention of Drive 09. An innocent reader would think the "pastor conference" was Wisconsin Synod.
From the Twittering of Glende, Ski, Buske and Katy, we know that all four were in Atlanta at the Drive 09 Babtist conference with Andy Stanley, that they are such buds with the Babtist staff that the four invited Carlos Whittaker out to lunch even before they got there.
We also know from Katie that a total of seven WELS pastors (see below) were there in Atlanta, including four WELS pastors never mentioned in the Tweets of the A-town Musketeers-plus-Buske. Ichabod readers, I warned you more WELS workers were there. The blabbering Tweets came from the cubs, who know they are protected by the stealthy senior wolves of Church and Change.
Background
The recently retired pastor of St. Peter in Freedom, Ron Ash, has been chairman of Church and Change, the folks who ran the synod into the ground before Gurgel beat a hasty exit to a secure and undisclosed location.
Tim Glende grew up at St. Paul, German Village (Columbus, Ohio), where Floyd Luther Stolzenburg introduced the loathsome Church Growth Movement. Pastors Mike Nitz and Robert Schumann both promoted CG at St. Paul. Needless to say, the congregation shrank from the work of the Church Shrinkers. Schumann is openly allergic to religion these days, like many CG burn-outs.
As Wayne Mueller claimed in FIC The Northwestern Lutheran, the Church Growth Movement never existed in WELS. But no one was allowed to question the Church Growth Movement in WELS, especially in Columbus. VP Kuske worked closely with Stolzenburg and promoted Floyd for a church job after Floyd and Roger Zehms wore out their welcome as leaders of the "first Church Growth agency in WELS." Of course, The Love Shack was first Church Growth agency of WELS, with predictable results.
Dishonesty breeds even more dishonesty, stealth, sneaking around, dissembling. I do not blame the young cubbies of Church and Change as much as the senior wolves who have abused them with bad training in the WELS school system, horrible examples at so-called evangelism days at MLC, and easy money from synod subsidies, grants, and Thrivent bail-outs.
Katie Tweeted: "Grateful for the last 3 days I spent with 7 kingdom minded WELS pastors. Love their hearts for lost ppl." But Ski spoke to the alleged evangelism conference for the Anything Goes District (Northern Wisconsin) this year and last. The delight of Katie seems to contrast the Babtist WELS pastors, "who have hearts for lost people," with the traditional WELS pastors who implicitly rely on the efficacious Gospel in the Means of Grace.
---
Anonymous has left a new comment on your post "Lo, How Honest the Church and Change Pastors Are":
Finally someone is pointing out the duplicity that is done in the name of God. Man devises and promotes such dishonesty -- not God.
Why should these people be deemed trustworthy when it comes to your soul?
---
Anonymous has left a new comment on your post "Lo, How Honest the Church and Change Pastors Are":
We have not heard much from the Wolf Pack today.
***
GJ - I think they are waking up or sobering up. See below.
---
Anonymous has left a new comment on your post "Lo, How Honest the Church and Change Pastors Are":
The Ichabod zombies are hilarious. Brett the scorned layperson, Worms from A-town, Kreuter the former St. Marcus member, and Jackson the zombie leader have all had their hands slapped by the man and now are seeking revenge. GJ wants so bad to connect the Church and Change dots that he dreams up stuff and the zombies fall for it. I don't think GJ could connect the dots if his life depended on it.
***
GJ - Dreaming up must mean quoting their websites and Tweets.
---
JR has left a new comment on your post "Lo, How Honest the Church and Change Pastors Are":
My father didn't give me enough attention. I wasn't breast-fed. My pastor doesn't return my calls. I was passed over for a promotion at work. My ex-girlfriend is getting married. Obama is stealing my tax dollars.
OK, there. Now will you actually answer the allegations instead of resorting to petty attacks that do nothing to reinforce your position? Or is this what amounts to "strategery" among the C&C crowd these days?
I'll ask as simply as I know how:
1) Is there any question that Ski and others were at this Drive conference?
2) How is the attendance of WELS pastors at a pastoral conference attended and organized by others with whom we clearly are not in fellowship okay?
3) If you agree that going to the Drive conference was okay, why was it hidden from the congregation under the guise of a "pastoral conference" that would give the members the impression that it was a WELS event?
---
JR has left a new comment on your post "Lo, How Honest the Church and Change Pastors Are":
I'm confused then. You seem to be advocating two viewpoints in conflict. Pastor Glende said he was at a "pastoral conference," yet the conference was "not about fellowship." Either Pastor Glende is lying to us or you are lying to yourself.
"I am not going to change your opinion and you will not change mine." There's another classic C&C talking point at work-- it's all adiaphora, isn't it? That's classic Parlow.
I'd be interested in hearing what Ski and the others learned at this Drive conference that was so markedly different from the last Drive conference that justifies the expense incurred in light of these tough economic times. Couldn't that money have been better spent giving it to World Missions or some other synod need?
---
JR has left a new comment on your post "Lo, How Honest the Church and Change Pastors Are":
You said, "I know that it [attending Drive '09] is not about fellowship." (emphasis mine)
I'm curious to know how you "know" this. Are you one of the attendees? Were you at the conference?
Obviously, I was not at the conference. But when I hear the phrase "pastoral conference," I can't help but think of fellowship.
You have a different perspective. If this conference wasn't about fellowship, what was it about?
***
GJ - Judging from Ski's gushing remarks about Drive 08, and Tweets from various participants, this was definitely a worship conference where all the participants joined in ecumenical worship. Ski said he worshiped with the Babtists last year, and I believe him. Why would 2009 be different?
23 comments:
Finally someone is pointing out the duplicity that is done in the name of God. Man devises and promotes such dishonesty -- not God.
Why should these people be deemed trustworthy when it comes to your soul?
Where did they learn their trade craft as undercover agents? Jeske appears to be the handler.
Starting with "The Secret Life of Walter Mitty" they are building their own self-aggrandizing worlds.
The Ichabod zombies are hilarious. Brett the scorned layperson, Worms from A-town, Kreuter the former St. Marcus member, and Jackson the zombie leader have all had their hands slapped by the man and now are seeking revenge. GJ wants so bad to connect the Church and Change dots that he dreams up stuff and the zombies fall for it. I don't think GJ could connect the dots if his life depended on it.
We have not heard much from the Wolf Pack today.
Let's think about who else might deserve the use of the term "zombie". Perhaps someone who takes his sermon ideas from a Web site might be considered a "zombie" (Ski, Parlow, Kelm, Doebler). Someone who designs his own church's Web site to mimic that which is found on Willow Creek et al might be considered a "zombie" (Ski, Parlow, Kelm, Doebler).
Retort?
JR can now be added to the GJ zombie list. I wonder how he/she has been scorned?
"Brett the scorned layperson?"...
Not true based on my doctrinal confession regarding the role of women in the church. This is the final statement from HTLC (bold type is mine to emphasize the false doctrine and eternal fellowship):
Sent: Monday, August 21, 2006 8:58 PM
Subject: Fw: Women in the church
August 18, 2006
From: HTLC Board of Elders
Stan Bauer
Tad Doviak
Monte Ewald
Dave Fulton
Kevin Nack
Dan Smith
Mark Tacke
To: Brett Meyer
Dear Brett,
You originally e-mailed the Board of Elders regarding the question of antiphonal
worship at Holy Trinity.
After prayerful consideration and study of the Word in this matter we believe that antiphonal worship is a proclamation or READING OF GOD'S INSPIRED WORD IS NOT CONSIDERED 'TEACHING' THE CONGREGATION. Reading of scripture as a congregation is an activity to be encouraged in worship. Teaching of scripture is an activity that the Lord in His Word has clearly reserved for the Pastor or other duly appointed official man of the congregation. FURTHERMORE, THE BOARD OF ELDERS CONSIDERS YOU TO BE IN FELLOWSHIP WITH HOLY TRINITY AND THE WELS."
See, no scorn.
Now their reaction to my doctrinal confession concerning their false doctrine of Universal Objective Justification is another matter. To watch them scramble for throwing stones was like watching hobo's on a hotdog. (one of my favorite Ichabod phrases)
In Christ,
Brett Meyer
My father didn't give me enough attention. I wasn't breast-fed. My pastor doesn't return my calls. I was passed over for a promotion at work. My ex-girlfriend is getting married. Obama is stealing my tax dollars.
OK, there. Now will you actually answer the allegations instead of resorting to petty attacks that do nothing to reinforce your position? Or is this what amounts to "strategery" among the C&C crowd these days?
I'll ask as simply as I know how:
1) Is there any question that Ski and others were at this Drive conference?
2) How is the attendance of WELS pastors at a pastoral conference attended and organized by others with whom we clearly are not in fellowship okay?
3) If you agree that going to the Drive conference was okay, why was it hidden from the congregation under the guise of a "pastoral conference" that would give the members the impression that it was a WELS event?
WELS pastors do not lie. They may mislead and deceive, but that is OK.
1) Is there any question that Ski and others were at this Drive conference?
No, there is no question
2) How is the attendance of WELS pastors at a pastoral conference attended and organized by others with whom we clearly are not in fellowship okay?
It is not about fellowship. You want it to be about fellowship. I am not going to change your opinion you will not change mine.
3) If you agree that going to the Drive conference was okay, why was it hidden from the congregation under the guise of a "pastoral conference" that would give the members the impression that it was a WELS event?
This would be you not putting the best construction on a situation you know nothing about...unless you're a member of Glende's church and then you could just ask him yourself.
Will the other four WELS pastors in attendance at Drive 09 please come forward so I know whom to mark and avoid.
I'm confused then. You seem to be advocating two viewpoints in conflict. Pastor Glende said he was at a "pastoral conference," yet the conference was "not about fellowship." Either Pastor Glende is lying to us or you are lying to yourself.
"I am not going to change your opinion and you will not change mine." There's another classic C&C talking point at work-- it's all adiaphora, isn't it? That's classic Parlow.
I'd be interested in hearing what Ski and the others learned at this Drive conference that was so markedly different from the last Drive conference that justifies the expense incurred in light of these tough economic times. Couldn't that money have been better spent giving it to World Missions or some other synod need?
JR,
I'm not surprised that you're confused given the fact that you take in all the Jackson dishes out.
It is usually the pastor that looks down on the layperson and tells them that they are not equipped to filter anything that is non-WELS(this is code for I don't trust you). Here you, assuming you are a layperson, are telling the pastor that he is not equipped to filter anything non-WELS.
I know that it is not about fellowship so that leaves you judging Pastor Glende as a liar. You may want to talk to him about that.
If it's adiaphora then it's adiaphora. If it isn't then it isn't. You're the one that is saying its all adiophora.
I'm sure that Ski and the others would share what they learned at Drive but you really don't want to know do you? Could the money have been used elsewhere? Probably but the Synod would not be my choice.
Anonymous,
I feel so slighted that you did not include me on your Ichabod Zombie List. At least those of us who who aspire to be on the list, or are on the list, are honest in our words and actions.
You said, "I know that it [attending Drive '09] is not about fellowship." (emphasis mine)
I'm curious to know how you "know" this. Are you one of the attendees? Were you at the conference?
Obviously, I was not at the conference. But when I hear the phrase "pastoral conference," I can't help but think of fellowship.
You have a different perspective. If this conference wasn't about fellowship, what was it about?
I was not at the conference. I know some of the attendees and I am confident that there was not a violation of fellowship.
bdah! bah! thank you I'll be here all week.
Well, since "Anonymous" knows some of the attendees and s/he is confident that there was not a violation of fellowship, then that settles it! Let's shut this site down now; it obviously isn't needed. GJ has been barking up the wrong tree.
Forgive me if that doesn't provide compelling evidence.
JR,
Like I said in an earlier post you will not change my opinion and I will not change yours. I know the pastors you guys are railing on and you don't. You don't want to know them. All you want to do is rant and follow your leader Jackson. I'm glad to see that you realize this site is no longer needed and that Jackson can shut it down. You wouldn't know compelling evidence if it bit you.
I'm not really sure how "opinion" comes into play in this situation. Imagine if several WELS pastors went to an LCMS conference with several conservative LCMS pastors presenting. Even though we are not in fellowship with them any longer, there certainly would be a lot of questions about this action. Now, take that action even further by having several WELS pastors attend a conference on improving our churches put on by a group with whom we have even deeper doctrinal differences. This has (and should) cause a lot of questions to be asked of this group of pastors.
I find it very interesting that some of the WELS pastors who attended this conference are so secretive about it. If there is nothing wrong with any of these actions (which I concede may be true), then why do so many do things undercover?
Incidentally, I do know these pastors. I have been to their churches several times. I've heard them preach, both in person and online, several times. And your statement about "knowing" these pastors is tantamount to when President Bush surmised that Russian President Putin was good because he "looked into his eyes." I do not subscribe to a cult of personality-- I base my questions on the actions of these pastors. This has nothing to do with them as people. I think Parlow, Patterson, Ski, and Jeske are very charsimatic, "good guys." I probably could be good friends with them; we have a lot in common. But all of that is irrelevant. We are talking about them as pastors charged with the preaching and teaching of God's Word.
By the way, Jackson is not my leader. I don't agree with all of his tenets mindlessly, in spite of what you might think. In fact, I think he's flat-out wrong on some things. This isn't about GJ or you or me. I don't want nor need to "know" these pastors either. I can't know all of the pastors in my synod, but I should trust that they all have the same confession of faith as that explained in the Book of Concord. And hearing the things that come out of some of our "progressive" (to put it euphemistically) congregations makes me wonder if that still is true.
Finally, I'd like to test this "compelling evidence" theory of yours. So bite me.
Hmmm...interesting that you feel one should react differently depending on the degree of doctrinal difference we may have with various groups. I suppose that could be a thread all it's own.
Why do you feel that going to the Drive conference has been a covert operation? Anybody in-the-know knows.
I think the issue that you are having is that you, and others, feel that what the pastors have done is wrong and you want them to face discipline. My suggestion is that you let WELS chain of command work its course. If you don't like the results then you go further up the food chain. At some point you have to accept what comes down whether you like it or not.
I don't feel that one should react differently based on the degree of doctrinal difference. I merely was comparing the perceived severity of the offense in a more concrete example. I don't see degrees of difference-- either you are in doctrinal agreement or you are not.
If "anybody in the know" knows about going to the Drive conference, then I'd like a report on it posted somewhere online. If the information provided is so wonderful and proven at getting the unchurched to hear the Word, then it would be extremely selfish of those who attended not to share it with as many other pastors as possible that could not attend.
I want this entire process to be above board. I would like those who attended the conference to stand up and state their case as to why they did so and to have the chance to defend themselves from the allegations of engaging in inappropriate fellowship.
I pray that our pastors and WELS leaders would shine a bright light on this issue and resolve it in a way that is both biblically-based and loving to all involved. If this is done, I am fine with accepting the outcome, whatever it may be. I hope that everyone else would do the same.
The divisions caused by not addressing these things causes all sorts of problems in our synod and is destroying its unity from within.
To see this happen to a church body that I love dearly is painful to me.
Post a Comment