Phil Gurgel's reminded me of Bivens when he tried to convince WELS members that Ski did not worship with the Babtists.
"Jessica, the blog post [Ski's] was not clear about whether he actually participated in the worship at the conference or not."
Here is the blog post and a quotation:
"The final Main Session with Andy Stanley was just phenomenal. We began with awesome worship. Today though, they began with a Christian rapper, Toby Mac."
In plain English, "We began with awesome worship" means Ski participated: first person, plural, past tense.
"They began with awesome worship" suggests that Ski only observed but coveted. Ski did not say that. He obviously joined their worship with great Enthusiasm.
Decades ago, when I quoted Paul Calvin Kelm endorsing a pan-Lutheran (ELCA-WELS-LCMS) lifestyle evangelism conference, in a paper given to the Northern Conference, Bivens immediately stood up "to defend Kelm's good name."
Bivens first demanded that I offer actual proof that Kelm wrote this. I imagine most in the audience got the same brochure. I had a copy along, so I passed it through the audience.
Bivens' next effort to absolve Kelm went like this, "How do we know Kelm meant to endorse that conference?" Bivens was again calling me a liar and offering a question no one could answer at the moment.
Later, the Church Doctor, Kent Hunter (DMin Fuller) told me that he asked Kelm for the endorsement and got it. So poor innocent Kelm was not snookered into a life with Leah when he expected Rachel. He was a willing participant, as anyone would guess, knowing Kelm. Bivens knew that best of all.
These logical dodges and dishonest cries of alarm might have worked in the 1980s. But now people have seen where these Pietistic methods lead. They are not impressed.
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Phil Gurgel (Mexico) wrote:
You are not in fellowship with the WELS. You have been marked as a false teacher. So identifying you as such is no different than identifying the pope (Luther´s example), or a baptist pastor as being a false teacher. (This was the entire point that Luther was making above), that the public sinner who has been judged as a false teacher, can be testified about in order to help people mark him for what he is.
I have studied the Large Catechism, and it will continue to be part of my ongoing study of the BOC. However, is it safe to assume that you were in agreement with Joe´s understanding of Luther´s words on the eight commandment? It sure appears to me that those words that were pulled out of their context and made to say something that is not at all Biblical nor Luther´s intention in writing them. Perhaps we all could use a better study of the BOC and the Large Catechism! And with that, I encourage us to either 1) move this discussion to a different forum (WELS theology would be fitting) or 2) leave the discussion at this point because it is clearly that all those involved have clearly made up their minds on the issue as it currently stands.
Why does Jessica Hill know more than the Chicaneries? I wish some pastors could write this:
There have been requests not just to quote people, but to find out exactly what the author meant by that quote. This is taken from Ski's report on what Andy Stanley meant with his mantra: To reach people no one else is reaching we must do things no one else is doing.
"Takeaway - Become preoccupied with those you haven’t reached as opposed to those you keep. This is easier said than done. Wow, it seems so simple. And yet so hard."
The mantra itself *can* be spun and polished and Lutheranized. We, and those in our fellowhip, are the church body who teaches God's Word in its entire truth and purity. So in that way, we are reaching the people nobody else is reaching by doing what no one else is doing. BUT, according to Ski's report on Stanley, he means for churches to become preoccupied with those we haven't reached at the expense of those we already have. Of course, he did not say "at the expense of" but that is the connotation. I think you would need to turn your brain off not to infer that from the statement.
This is NOT the way it works. Believers, laity and lay people alike, must hear the Gospel message clearly and continually in order to have the strength and motivation to go out and reach the lost. If they do not, their motivations will turn away from godly motivations (as has happened with other false teachers) and the strength to take the steps to witness to unbelievers will wane (as has perhaps happened in the WELS).
For the umpteenth time on this thread, when believers are in the Word, God blesses faith. When unbelievers are given the WORD (not ANYTHING else), God works faith. Any extra "things which no one else is doing" are powerless.
[GJ - I just learned Jessica Hill is a Manthey, which means she is also a Brenner on her mother's side.]
