DRB has left a new comment on your post "UOJ Stormtroopers Illustrating How They Get Their ...":
Since the well has been adequately poisoned, there should be no harm in my encouraging anyone confused about this topic to spend time carefully reading the source documents themselves. Here are a few passages from the Scriptures and Lutheran confessions that have been cited in support of the position that God in Christ reconciled (past tense) the world (not just part of the world) to himself, exhorting sinners to be reconciled to him (no Universalism here) -- 2 Cor. 5:19-20. I already pointed out Luther's agreement in a comment on a post from a few days ago.
These LCMS Theses on Justification succinctly distinguish objective justification from subjective justification and give the sedes doctrinae for the good news that God absolved the world by the work of his Son:
'In normal Biblical and ecclesiastical usage the terms "justify" and "justification" refer to the ("subjective") justification of the individual sinner through faith (Rom. 4:5, 5:1, etc.; AC IV, 3; FC SD III, 25). But because theologically justification is the same thing as the forgiveness of sins (Rom. 4:1-8; Ap IV, 76; FC Ep III, 7), it is Biblically and confessionally correct to refer to the great sin-cancelling, atoning work of the Redeemer as the "objective" or "universal" justification of the whole sinful human race. (John 1:29; Rom. 5:6-18; 2 Cor. 5:19; Col 2:14-15; 1 Tim. 3:16; Ap IV, 103-105; LC V, 31, 32, 36, 37; FC SD III, 57)'
That is the position of the Lutheran confessions (e.g., Ap IV, 103-105; FC SD III, 57), not a later development. More important, it is the position of the apostle, as can be seen from 2 Cor. 5:19-20, unless one either follows the Calvinists in changing the meaning of the word "world" or follows the synergists in changing the meaning of the word "reconciled."
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GJ - In a rare departure, the author of this comment has left his name - David R. Bickel. He is apparently this scientist, since the bio links to his religious website.
I am not impressed with the LCMS Theses. I addressed them at length in Thy Strong Word. Someone claimed that Robert Preus was involved in writing them or wrote them. If so, that was at the zenith (or nadir) of Church Growth at his seminary. The two go together. His Justification and Rome teaches the opposite of the comment posted above.
The comment struck me as typical Missouri. As Egbert Schaller wrote, Walther was not a Biblical theologian. He gave Missouri a heritage of propositional theology - offering theses and citing Biblical or Book of Concord sources for them. There is no better way to engage in circular reasoning. Valleskey did the same thing in his odious CG essay in the Wisconsin Schwaermerschrift.
I am glad a scientist is studying theology. I only hope that his investigates more thoroughly. The double-justification scheme is from Knapp, not the Book of Concord.
No one is obliged to believe in the publication of a Midwestern Lutheran sect. As Mudslide wrote in a brilliant essay, Lutherans seem to celebrate Reformation anniversaries with a new travesty. The LCMS justification theses were that.
I prefer the Book of Concord:
"These treasures are offered us by the Holy Ghost in the promise of the holy Gospel; and faith alone is the only means by which we lay hold upon, accept, and apply, and appropriate them to ourselves. This faith is a gift of God, by which we truly learn to know Christ, our Redeemer, in the Word of the Gospel, and trust in Him, that for the sake of His obedience alone we have the forgiveness of sins by grace, are regarded as godly and righteous by God the Father, and are eternally saved." Formula of Concord, Thorough Declaration, III. #10. Of the Righteousness of Faith before God. Concordia Triglotta, St. Louis: Concordia Publishing House, 1921, p. 919. Tappert, p. 541. Heiser, p. 250.
4 comments:
Pasting this from the original thread in order to address the claims of Dr. Bickel
DRB, I take it you haven't read through the UOJ discussions on this board or having read enough to comprehend the Scriptural and Confessional opposition to UOJ you have decided to continued in your attempt to defend it.
I will focus my comments to the Confessional references in your fourth paragraph which you state are supportive of UOJ.
AP IV, 103-105 can be found here
http://www.bookofconcord.org/defense_4_justification.php
From those sections I quote, "Because after the whole world became subject, He took away the sin of the whole world, as he [John] testified, saying John 1:29: "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." And on this account let no one boast of works, because no one is justified by his deeds. But he who is righteous has it given him because he was justified after the laver [of Baptism]. Faith, therefore, is that which frees through the blood of Christ, because he is blessed "whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered," Ps. 32:1,104] These are the words of Ambrose, which clearly favor our doctrine; he denies justification to works, and ascribes to faith that it sets us free 105] through the blood of Christ."
I believe this encompases the section you feel promotes UOJ. Note that "He took away the sin of the world" is shown to mean the atonement - that Christ paid for the sins of the whole world. This is so since in context it goes on to declare (bold lettering) and define how we obtain the forgiveness of sins which is in Christ, "he who is righteous has it given him because he was justified after the laver [of Baptism]. Faith, therefore, is that which frees through the blood of Christ," It is faith that sets us free through the blood of Christ. Your references reject UOJ.
The following BOC quotes reject and condemn UOJ for declaring the unjust just without the Word which is distributed only through the Means of Grace.
BOC: We maintain this, that properly and truly, by faith itself, we are for Christ's sake accounted righteous, or are acceptable to God. And because "to be justified" means that out of unjust men just men are made, or born again, it means also that they are pronounced or accounted just. For Scripture speaks in both ways. [The term "to be justified" is used in two ways: to denote, being converted or regenerated; again, being accounted righteous.] Accordingly we wish first to show this, that faith alone makes of an unjust, a just man, i.e., receives remission of sins.
BOC: Accordingly, justification occurs through the Word, just as Paul says, Rom. 1, 16: The Gospel is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth. Likewise 10, 17: Faith cometh by hearing. And proof can be derived even from this that faith justifies, because, if justification occurs only through the Word, and the Word is apprehended only by faith, it follows that faith justifies.
http://www.bookofconcord.org/defense_4_justification.php
Keep hammering on this UOJ stuff, Pastor, and one of these days it'll get through my skull.
A pastor gave us the 'sinking -ship-and-Christ-is-the-life-preserver' analogy, and my heart felt rebuke and discordance that UOJ was wrong.
Perhaps if I'd attended seminary and had my wallet and mind wrung dry, I'd have been more susceptible to just nodding and saying, "Yes."
D.O.W.
It was by God's grace that you did not wind up in cemetery , I mean seminary.
Who knows, you could have been another Yes Man, or one of the Yes Men. letting theology be done for them rather than them doing it themselves.
LPC
God be praised for your honesty Diet of Worms... may you go on feeling rebuke and discordance that UOJ IS wrong..Am certain the Holy Spirit of promise is witnessing unto your spirit until that point when you truly see it altogether clearly, and thus, get set free from " law of OJ" and from the bonds of OJ WITH JOY ... into the true freedom and liberty of the children of God.
Should that come into being for you, and I pray it shall, you will find your love for God (the Father, Son & Holy Spirit) and His Word, is immensely deepened.
Very many passages you are already well familiar with, will offer up their full meaning, thrilling you with joy in Christ, in understanding simple yet profound things you never saw revealed there before.
Press on with your examinations Diet of Worms. Search the Scriptures, study on... The Lord will be with you blessing you...
KJV ROMANS 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God: 24 Being justified freely by his garce through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus; 25 Whom God has set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. 27 Where is boasting then ? It is excluded. By what law ? of works ? Nay; but by the law of faith.28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith...
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