Fox Mulder has left a new comment on your post "DK's Offer For the Chicanery Convention Tomorrow":
To say that UOJ states that all men should just go to heaven, is to take out of context what I said. Yes, Romans 5:18 says that justification applies to all men (and it very clearly does) but in context is also clear that no one enters heaven but through Christ. The verdict toward mankind is that through Christ they are not guilt (sic), but a man can certainly deny this mercy, and remain an unbeliever.
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GJ - I am amazed that the CG Enthusiasts can overlook Romans 5:1-2
KJV Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: 2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
and shoehorn Knapp's Pietistic double-justification scheme into the rest of the chapter. Paul must have lost track of what he was saying a few verses before. The Apostle's mind must have wandered after spending Romans 4 on Abraham as the father of faith.
Strangest of all, Luther and the Concordists never noticed this UOJ opinion.
Lenski did a careful analysis of the entire New Testament and never found UOJ in any passage.
UOJ Stormtroopers endlessly repeat their favorite slogans without enlightening anyone.
18 comments:
As a note of caution Paul Proctor is a Baptist.
This article on the Church Growth Movement is appropriate and accurate.
http://www.newswithviews.com/PaulProctor/proctor50.htm
How does 1 John 2:2 fit in?
" 2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."
(As an aside, v15 certainly twists the knickers of those Chicaneries that want to ape the world's culture inside the church. Think of it as a celestial wedgie.)
Mr. Worms, Propitiation means mediator. God the Father made Christ the mediator between God and the whole world. 1 Timothy 2:5, "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;" But he is not apprehended as mediator by any man except through faith as the BOC confirms.
BOC states how Christ becomes each individuals mediator here:
BOC - "The wrath of God cannot be appeased if we set against it our own works, because Christ has been set forth as a Propitiator, so that, for His sake, the Father may become reconciled to us. But Christ is not apprehended as a Mediator except by faith. Therefore, by faith alone we obtain remission of sins when we comfort our hearts with confidence in the mercy promised for Christ's sake."
Apology of the Augsburg Confession
Part 5
That We Obtain Remission of Sins by Faith Alone in Christ.
http://www.bookofconcord.org/defense_4_justification.php
Scripture: Romans 3:25, "Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;"
Hi Brett
Have you read Walter Maier's paper on Justification found on WLS essayfiles?
It's totally pertinent and I'd like to get a conversation going about the paper on Ichabod. Maier got in big trouble with the LCMS for writing the paper in the early 1980s--in fact was censured and no longer allowed to teach Romans at Fort Wayne.
Besides being interesting because it's anti-Objective Justification, it's interesting because it's on the WELS Sem site. Why, I haven't the foggiest. It seems like a paper that WELS wouldn't want anyone to read.
Walter Maier vs UOJ:
http://www.wlsessays.net/files/MaierJustification.pdf
DK, thanks for the link to Maier's essay. I hadn't seen it before. Having just read it I agree with him 100%. This quote clearly shows his Scriptural Confession of Justification by faith alone, rejecting UOJ.
"If forgiveness of sins and justification are offered and promised to sinners for their acceptance by faith, it is clear that sinners are not justified and do not have forgiveness of sins apart from faith, and they will not have these blessings unless and until faith is present in their hearts. According to the dictionary, a promise is an assurance given by one person to another that the former will or will not perform a specified act. God’s promise to the sinner in his Word is that He will justify and save the sinner if and when the latter accepts Christ as his Redeemer from sin." Page 9
I also agree with him when he stated that faith is a condition of salvation.
"xxviii Is it correct to state simply that faith is a condition of salvation? Yes, indeed. Some in the Synod today are reticent to answer in the affirmative." Page 33
UOJ defenders reject this statement saying that faith then becomes a work that man does - directly contradicting their previous statements that faith is created by the Holy Ghost through the Word and Baptism.
UOJ defenders will also state that even though God declares the unbeliever forgiven, justified and righteous - he isn't until he believes that God already declared him forgiven, justified and righteous. UOJ makes God a liar. According to the false doctrine of UOJ God who created the universe in a Word, has in a Word declared the entire unbelieving world forgiven but they aren't until they believe it. Rational enthusiasm.
GJ, why did you post my quotes from the formula of concord?
UOJ makes it easier for prospects -- especially pastors -- since no training and conversion is necessary.
You wrote:
"Strangest of all, Luther and the Concordists never noticed this UOJ opinion."
Of course not. In Romans the argument is about faith vs. works, and not about justification by faith or (as you put it) without faith.
The same context is true of the Lutheran Confessions. They were not arguing about the role of faith in justification, but rather about faith vs. works as a basis for justification.
Anonymous at 9:45pm, your statement is pure fallacy. The Book of Concord states, "6] Accordingly, since even here at Augsburg at the very beginning of the Diet, Your Imperial Majesty caused to be proposed to the Electors, Princes, and other Estates of the Empire, amongst other things, that the several Estates of the Empire, on the strength of the Imperial edict, should set forth and submit their opinions and judgments in the German and the Latin 7] language, and since on the ensuing Wednesday, answer was given to Your Imperial Majesty, after due deliberation, that we would submit the Articles of our Confession for our side on next Wednesday, therefore, in obedience to Your Imperial Majesty's 8] wishes, we offer, in this matter of religion, the Confession of our preachers and of ourselves, showing what manner of doctrine from the Holy Scriptures and the pure Word of God has been up to this time set forth in our lands, dukedoms, dominions, and cities, and taught in our churches." Augsburg Confession, Preface to the Emperor Charles V., section 6
http://www.bookofconcord.org/augsburgconfession.php
The confessors were submitting the Articles of their Confession. It wasn't simply faith vs. works and so there was no mention of the eternal doctrine of Objective Justification - the universal forgiveness OF all unbelievers.
Found within the link posted above and below the Preface is the section Chief Articles of Faith. If OJ was a doctrine at the time of the Confessions it would have been posted here as the central doctrine of faith even as it is now with the heterodox Lutheran churches. It is not found in the BOC.
If OJ were a doctrine at this time it would have been included in the many books of the BOC as was the doctrine of Election. The BOC admits that Election was not an issue but detailed the doctrine in case issues arose at a later time.
XI. Election.
"1] Concerning this article no public dissension has occurred among the theologians of the Augsburg Confession. But since it is a consolatory article, if treated properly, and lest offensive disputations concerning the same be instituted in the future, it is also explained in this writing."
http://www.bookofconcord.org/fc-ep.php#XI.%20Election.
OJ was never mentioned in the BOC because it is a new false doctrine in the Lutheran church. UOJ defenders rely on the false assertion that the issue was, as you stated above, between justification by works and justification by faith. This is a lie since Objective Justification is even more offensive to the Roman Catholic Church as it declares God's forgiveness to the entire unbelieving world before any works can be accomplished. And since UOJ teaches nothing happens when a person comes to faith (Subjective Justification) that wasn't already true before faith (they were already forgiven, justified and righteous by God's divine verdict) the doctrine of Objective Justification would have been of primary importance in the confession of the chief articles of the Christian faith. It wasn't.
Brett, it sounds like you adhere to two propitiations - a universal, objective, propitiation, if you will, and a subjective propitiation.
I recall you in the past equating propitiation with redemption/ atonement/ ransom, and other terms and therefore you must adhere to two redemptions, etc.
So is justification the only thing in which there is not two aspects?
Please correct any of my premises or conclusions if they are faulty.
Anonymous at 10:38am, thanks for your questions.
I confess in only one propitiation for the sins of the whole world - that is Christ. He is the one Mediator between God and man.
If this answer doesn't satisfy your concerns, please explain more fully where you believe I've promoted two separate propitiations.
You state, "I recall you in the past equating propitiation with redemption/ atonement/ ransom, and other terms and therefore you must adhere to two redemptions, etc."
I can't comment on what the "other terms" may be and therefore cannot agree with that. I do confess that propitiation is the same as redemption, atonement and ransom. I don't see how that means I adhere to two redemptions. Christ paid the ransom for the sins of the whole world - sinless and perfect He suffered in the worlds place under the worlds sin. God the Father accepted His payment and has placed Him before the world so that through the Gospel promise the Holy Ghost would bring to faith those God has called to believe through the Word and Baptism (the Means of Grace).
I confess that there are not two aspects to Christ as the worlds propitiation (Mediator) nor are there two aspects to Justification.
Question for you: In your confession is Subjective Justification just as Objective as Objective Justification? Also requesting that you please explain your response.
Anonymous at 10:38am, I read back through my recent comments and find that you may have been referring to my statement here:
DK's Offer For The Chicanery Conference Tomorrow, "But again you also fail to confess the truth of Scripture in your assertion because you've made Christ a propitiation for the whole unbelieving world (forgiving them their sins while they are alive to sin, carnaly minded and rotting in the decay and stench of complete separation from God) while they are outside of faith."
The part that may have caused confusion is, "because you've made Christ a propitiation for the whole unbelieving world". Although I explained it in the parenthesis immediately following I should have explained it better. Note Romans 3:25, "Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;" Scripture states it's through faith that Christ becomes our propitiation - He is obtained as a Mediator between the wrath of God and the sinner through faith alone. Without availing ourselves of Christ as Mediator through faith worked by the Holy Ghost we remain dead in sin, alive to sin, carnaly minded and under the condemnation of God because of our sin.
Brett, I apologize for the delayed response.
What initially triggered my question was what you wrote earlier in this thread: “God the Father made Christ the mediator between God and the whole world.” And also: “But he is not apprehended as mediator by any man except through faith as the BOC confirms.”
(I’m also trying to understand your equating of mediator and propitiation and perhaps that is part of the problem. Jesus mediates on the basis of the propitiation he procured and therefore “propitiation means mediator”? Heb. 9:15 )
It caught my eye because the way you wrote about propitiation/mediator (redemption/atonement/ransom) is how I usually hear justification described: God justified the whole world through Christ…But Christ/Justification is not apprehended except through faith.
So it seems to me that you put justification in a class of its own: Christ redeemed/atoned for/reconciled/propitiated the whole world and when this fact is apprehended by faith God justifies the sinner (declares him not guilty of sin). And you would agree with the statement that everyone is redeemed/atoned for/reconciled whether they believe it or not but not the statement that everyone is justified whether they believe it or not?
As to your question: “Is Subjective Justification just as Objective as Objective Justification?” I humbly confess I’m not sure I understand the question. The sinner is declared not guilty of sin when the Holy Spirit brings him to faith. This is true whether someone (e.g. an atheist) believes this happens or not. Is that what you are asking or have I completely missed the point?
I agree with anon@9:38. Lazy pastors find themselves enamored of UOJ.
Anonymous, according to the Greek Lexicon on Crosswalk website, http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/ , Propitiation has two meanings in the Greek. The first is the transliterated word Hilasmos which means, 1. an appeasing, propitiating or 2. the means of appeasing, a propitiation. Propitiation with this definition is used in these two verses. 1 John 2:2, "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world." and 1 John 4:10, "Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins."
The second is the transliterated word Hilasterion. The first definition is the one relating to our discussion which is: relating to an appeasing or expiating, having placating or expiating force, expiatory; a means of appeasing or expiating, a propitiation. The two verses which use this definition the one which relates to this discussion is, Romans 3:25 (quoted earlier), "Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;"
The Greek transliterated word for Mediator is Mesites which means: one who intervenes between two, either in order to make or restore peace and friendship, or form a compact, or for ratifying a covenant a medium of communication, arbitrator. 1 Timothy 2:5, "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;"
My equating Propitiation and Mediator is through the definition that Christ is the means of appeasing the wrath of God in order to restore peace. Strictly by definition the two terms are not synonymous. Going forward I will keep them separate.
Cont...
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You ask, "And you would agree with the statement that everyone is redeemed/atoned for/reconciled whether they believe it or not but not the statement that everyone is justified whether they believe it or not?"
I confess that everyone's sin has been paid for but no one is reconciled except through faith.
I disagree with your statement the God justified the whole world through Christ. Christ is the justification for the world but the world is not justified except through faith. Christ paid the price for the worlds sin but we do not have the forgiveness of sins which Christ won for us except that through faith we die to sin and are raised again to life by believing in Christ as our Savior. This is where my question comes in. My point is that Objective Justification means that Christ's payment for the worlds sin is all within the realm of God and mankind has no part in accomplishing it - completely objective. Subjective Justification is equally objective since it also is all within the realm of God and mankind has no part in accomplishing it. Romans 8:30, "Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." This is the doctrine of Election. It is God who works the faith in man which trusts in the redemption that is only offered in Christ. Thus Subjective Justification is just as objective as Objective Justification (not the false UOJ but Scriptural Objective Justification is that Christ paid for the sins of the whole world, period. It is not that God declared the whole world forgiven). God does it all. The two descriptions Objective and Subjective were only created to support Universal Justification, it's a Universalist tool and not Biblical or Lutheran. Note also in Romans 8:30 that those people elected by God he called, and those he called he justified and those he justified he glorified. Another denial of UOJ since the whole unbelieving world was not glorified.
I fully agree with Walter Maier's essay on Justification and recommend it as it clearly discusses the nuances of atonement, propitiation, expiation etc. and is Scriptural and faithful to the Confessions.
http://www.wlsessays.net/files/MaierJustification.pdf
I appreciate your demanding that I'm precise in my statements.
DK suggested a discussion on the Maier paper, I will be interested in participating in that.
LPC
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