WELS Pastor Mark Walters, from Abiding Word, Ottawa, Canada:
Greg:
Thanks for the stimulating conversation. Would you be willing to help promote confessional Lutheranism in Ottawa
I also pray that you discover grace…not intellectually but that it melts your heart to breathe the love of the Gospel of Christ,
Thanks,
Mark
[December 8, 2009]
GJ - The following is an email from Pastor Mark Walters, pictured above. I phoned him in case the email was fraudulent. He called back a few days later and confirmed that he sent it, that he meant to shut down Ichabod. "I am going to contact some people in the States and see what can be done. You are harming the Kingdom."
---
Subject: Let me know one thing (December 2, 2009)
pastor.abidingword@rogers.com
Greg Jackson:
My name is Mark Walters. I think I went to school with your son, Marty.
I am a pastor in the WELS and serving at Abiding Word Lutheran Church in Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
I am a VERY supportive brother of Jeff Gunn, Ski, Tim Glende, and many others that you seem to enjoy trashing.
How do I get my picture on your website so that I can join your toxic hall of fame?????????
I’m very sad that you spend your time putting up such a legalistic, judgemental (sic) website, without knowing the true facts about things.
I will do everything in my power to shut you down because you are destructive to the kingdom.
Please contact me soon.
613-824-2524
Mark Walters
***
GJ - Walters had no problem with his friend Ski going to Groeschel, Stanley, Beeson, etc for training. "Name one false doctrine from Groeschel," he demanded. I said, "Everything."
He tried the "spoiling the Egyptians" argument on me, not using those words but the concept. He claimed - Christians need other Christians and they can use their discernment, which he found somewhere in Paul. He did not seem to connect with Matthew 7, 1 Timothy 4, or 2 Timothy 4.
---
-----Original Message-----
From: Gregory L. Jackson [mailto:chemnitz@cox.net]
Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2009 11:33 AM
To: pastor.abidingword@rogers.com
Subject: Your wish has been granted
Were you at the latest Church and Change conference? Or previous ones?
This is my regular email account.
In Christ,
Greg Jackson, PhD
---
Not at the last one…at previous ones.
Thanks,
Mark
"God: Never Get Too Big For Him." Ben Carson
Pastor Mark Walters
1575 Belcourt Blvd.
Orleans, ON K1C 1M3
Phone: 613-824-2524
Fax: 613-824-2905
---
Michael Schottey has left a new comment on your post "WELS Pastor Mark Walters Threatens To Shut Down Ic...":
"Supporting brother of Jeff Gunn, Ski....etc"
That means he went to school with the whole group.
Mark Walters--WLS Class of '97
James "Ski" Skorzewski--Class of '98
Tim Glende--Class of '98
Its hard to disagree with someone when you sat next to them in class or drove them back from the bar late one night. At least, its hard when you don't have a backbone.
The reverse Ad Hominem support system of classmates is a ridiculous system. The guy is good...so he must be doing things the right way. Then you base all arguments on the guy's sterling character.
"Supportive Brother" just means these men were in COS together.
Rev. Mark Bitter on "Spoiling the Egyptians:" "While the Lord was telling Moses exactly how he wanted to be worshiped, the Israelites were worshiping like the Egyptians did."
He then went on a 10 minute binge against churches who want to use praise songs instead of psalms.
It was easy to see the classmates who were grinning and those squirming in their seats.
This was all at Evangelism Day...somewhere down the hall "Ski" was torturing minds. I skipped Kelm's key note for my own sanity.
---
Anonymous has left a new comment on your post "WELS Pastor Mark Walters Threatens To Shut Down Ic...":
Congratulations!
It's just noon and you took out 2 minor trolls and now they send in the "Creeker Errand Boy" from Ontario.
Pretty good and it's just noon.
More cow bell puhleez, Pastor Jackson
I'm ROFL, keep slingin that sword
Blogging and Scholarship what a combo, only a REAL Lutheran could pull that off!
--The LCMS Church Lady
---
mjleyrer has left a new comment on your post "WELS Pastor Mark Walters Threatens To Shut Down Ic...":
Nothing like empty, unexecutable threats to get your morning going eh Jacko?
If someone did shut you down I would be upset because if there's one thing that I care about as much as the church it Constitutional Liberties. This would definitely be an infringement of one.
I don't even think he could file libel against you if he wanted to. Maybe he could.
See Jacko, even the guys who don't agree with you want you stay up and running. Because if you went away, who would I have to argue with?
***
GJ - I was shocked, shocked to find out Rev. Mark was a regular at Church and Chicanery conferences. And he links to Time of Generic Grace.
He confuses satire with slander. The funny Photoshops seem to rile him more than is healthy for someone so brittle and humorless. I tried to point out the long history of satirical cartoons, going back the the 19th century at least. But Mark is slow to listen, quick to talk, quick to anger.
My suggestion is that he go to court in Ottawa and get an injunction banning anyone in Ontario from reading Ichabod. That would be fair, eh?
Muslims in Canada went after Mark Steyn. Perhaps Mark is taking lessons.
---
Michael Schottey has left a new comment on your post "WELS Pastor Mark Walters Threatens To Shut Down Ic...":
OF COURSE Rev. Mark is a regular at C&C events. If my church offered to pay my way to a drinking date with my buddies, I'd take the money too!
I love when he asked about Groeschel...that quote needs to be sent, verbatim to every and all of his superiors from the Mission counselors to President Schroeder.
If this man can't test the spirits of a yahoo like Groeschel, I can't believe he is a fit expositor of God's word.
---
Michael Schottey has left a new comment on your post "WELS Pastor Mark Walters Threatens To Shut Down Ic...":
Leyrer,
Speaking of logical fallacies...I didn't say he would be a bad preacher because he is trying to "shut down Ichabod."
I said I couldn't imagine a fit expositor of God's word who can't find fault with Craig Groeschel's filth pile that is LifeChurch.tv
If someone wasn't paying attention in class while Professors Fredrich and Schmidt were talking about the dangers of false teachers, how much else did they miss?
---
rwiedenhoeft@wisc.edu
Pastor Jackons (sic),
What are your shortcomings?
Chairman Bob
***
GJ - I can spell. I can tell you are probably from UW Madison, perhaps a victim of Willow Creek Chapel.
---
I. J. Reilly has left a new comment on your post "WELS Pastor Mark Walters Threatens To Shut Down Ic...":
Brett--
I don't think your comments would convince Anders. I went to the web page he advertised on this blog and it is apparently the work of a group who believe that the real teachings of Jesus were corrupted by the church and "The Apostate Paul." (Wow, someone besides GJ knows how to compose insulting nicknames that reduces an opponent to a stereotype.) I don't think he'd find much creedence (sic) in your quotes from Romans, Titus, Galatians, and Ephesians. Noble effort, though.
***
GJ - How delicious it must be, to post anonymous, gratuitous comments and be able to brag to fellow sots, "Look at what I published!" With enough comments posted, a semblance of proper spelling may emerge. No, wait, it hasn't so far.
---
JR has left a new comment on your post "WELS Pastor Mark Walters Threatens To Shut Down Ic...":
Wow, I'm on holiday for a few days, and look what happens when I return! Trolls abound, Jews enter the fray, and Canadian pastors threaten to turn out the lights. Ichabod is the place to be!
Mr. Leyrer, I gotta give it up to you. You took a beating, but you hung in there. Great last comment, by the way. Those were my sentiments exactly! +1 for you.
Mr. Schottey, how has your outspokenness affected your standing in WELS? I'd love to "come out," but I am wary of the backlash. I'm interested in hearing what has happened to you.
***
GJ - Total freedom of expression in WELS: real diversity. Not to worry.
---
Anonymous has left a new comment on your post "WELS Pastor Mark Walters Threatens To Shut Down Ic...":
GJ, all theological arguments aside, "judgmental" is in fact the proper Canadian spelling of the word. To poke fun at a pastor in Canada for using correct Canadian spelling is either intentional mean-spiritedness I'll wow the Americans who are ignorant of Canadian spelling rules) or just ignorance of Canadian spelling on your part. If one posts from the US on a British website, one is not expected to use the affectation of British spelling.
***
GJ - I love the patronizing tone of these anonymous comments. Notice how one little (sic) can rustle their chicken feathers. That little Latin word means "thus" - not "this person is an idiot." Mark is not Johnny Canuck. is he? He had the benefit of 8 years of WELS higher education, in America. I am not sure if he is returning to the Motherland or just spending a few years in exile for threatening someone else. They have some good anger management classes in Ottawa, eh?
Here's a a conveniently located one for Mark -
Anger & Emotions Management Institute,
421 Gilmour Street, Ottawa, ON K2P 0R5, Canada
(613) 231-2051.
My wife and I earned degrees in Canada, so we spent a few enjoyable years there. The Canadians are great people. We have many relatives there, so we know how to say Chooseday, ask for serviettes (not napkins), and smile when offered biscuits (cookies). We learned to plug our lamps into the hydro when we sat on our chesterfield. We know about British/Canadian spelling, favouring the extra vowel, in Saviour or aluminium. Spelling is our speciality.
I relish the moments when some humorless Chicanery starts lecturing in stealth mode.
---
34 comments:
1 Cor. 10:21, "Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils."
So much for spoiling the Egyptians. How is it that these guys claim to be able to exercise discernment and yet point to Andy Stanley as a Christian - someone who through decision theology has condemned himself to Hell, and is teaching others to do the same, is thought of as being a Christian?!? Ski, "we had AWESOME worship" with Andy Stanley.
John 10:27, "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:"
Consider the implication when WELS pastors such as Mark Walters, Ski, Patterson and Jeske all hear Christ's voice in Baptist New Age theology. They are flocking to hear the nectar dribble from the lips of Stanley and Sweet. All the while they growl against the Confessions, destroy the Holy Spirit's faith, reject Justification by Faith alone in order to establish their own way to righteousness which is not of God - UOJ.
"Supporting brother of Jeff Gunn, Ski....etc"
That means he went to school with the whole group.
Mark Walters--WLS Class of '97
James "Ski" Skorzewski--Class of '98
Tim Glende--Class of '98
Its hard to disagree with someone when you sat next to them in class or drove them back from the bar late one night. At least, its hard when you don't have a backbone.
The reverse Ad Hominem support system of classmates is a ridiculous system. The guy is good...so he must be doing things the right way. Then you base all arguments on the guy's sterling character.
"Supportive Brother" just means these men were in COS together.
Rev. Mark Bitter on "Spoiling the Egyptians:" "While the Lord was telling Moses exactly how he wanted to be worshiped, the Israelites were worshiping like the Egyptians did."
He then went on a 10 minute binge against churches who want to use praise songs instead of psalms.
It was easy to see the classmates who were grinning and those squirming in their seats.
This was all at Evangelism Day...somewhere down the hall "Ski" was torturing minds. I skipped Kelm's key note for my own sanity.
After reading his e-mail, the first thought that crossed my mind was, "is this guy for real?' Sadly, we have found out, he is for real.
"The Word of God is quick and powerful and sharper than any two-edged sword".
Don't these types of threats make him a terrorist?
Congratulations!
It's just noon and you took out 2 minor trolls and now they send in the "Creeker Errand Boy" from Ontario.
Pretty good and it's just noon.
More cow bell puhleez, Pastor Jackson
I'm ROFL, keep slingin that sword
Blogging and Scholarship what a combo, only a REAL Lutheran could pull that off!
--The LCMS Church Lady
In Canada there's no freedom of speech guarantee built into the constitution or similar laws, so if someone doesn't like what others are printing, there is more recourse to shutting it down. In fact, the plaintiff doesn't even have to win the case because the proceedings are so drawn out and costly, finances usually puts an end to free speech itself. Anyway, it's not like that in the US, fortunately.
Nothing like empty, unexecutable threats to get your morning going eh Jacko?
If someone did shut you down I would be upset because if there's one thing that I care about as much as the church it Constitutional Liberties. This would definitely be an infringement of one.
I don't even think he could file libel against you if he wanted to. Maybe he could.
See Jacko, even the guys who don't agree with you want you stay up and running. Because if you went away, who would I have to argue with?
OF COURSE Rev. Mark is a regular at C&C events. If my church offered to pay my way to a drinking date with my buddies, I'd take the money too!
I love when he asked about Groeschel...that quote needs to be sent, verbatim to every and all of his superiors from the Mission counselors to President Schroeder.
If this man can't test the spirits of a yahoo like Groeschel, I can't believe he is a fit expositor of God's word.
Okay Mike,
The pastor was just talking about Ad hominem.
I'm sure the man is a fine preacher of the Gospel. You shouldn't make judgment calls on his preaching ability just because he's trying to shut down Jacko.
Pastor Mark Walters(and others like him) are backsliding from Othodox Luthernism. Read my comments from earlier today. If my pastor went to Mars Hill or Willow Creek to worship, he would be given the left boot!
What is with this, "Name one false doctrine?" As a church lady before me said,"I don't know what it could be....could it be no infant baptism? the bread and wine are not the body and blood of Christ? you have to accept Jesus?(synergism and descision theology)life coaching in place of Christ Crusified?
From The People's Bible Series,Church-Mission-Ministry, Prof. Armin W. Schuetze has this to say about Reformed doctine and Church Growth:
"Soon outward growth becomes a goal, and the church adopts methods that it believes cannot fail to attract more people to its fellowship. On the other hand, it is tempted to avoid doing anything that seems to stand in the way of numerical growth."
"As a movement, it is not limited to one denomination. Devotees in various churches, including some that are Lutheran, have adopted or adapted the movement's strategies and methods. Others, however, have shown the erroneous Evangelical/Reformed theological roots of the movement and consequent unbilical methods."
There is much in Schuetze's book that these false teachers(including the rest of us) could learn from. This was the same source that Pastor GJ posted yesterday(I used different quotes this time.)
In Christ,
from WELS church lady
Schottey is right about the WELS pastors' buddy system: "He is a good guy" means "I drank beer with him, don't criticize him." "Friendships" like this produce non-critical and non-corrective relationships among pastors.
It would be better for the WELS if her pastors were close...but not too close. Friends, but not buddies. Then maybe guys wouldn't be so worried about what everyone else thinks about them. Maybe then guys wouldn't hesitate so much to correct a fellow pastor and call him out when he's acting foolishly or sinfully, or both. That would be closer to true friendship than what's happening now.
Blindly allowing a "friend" to continue in idiocy because you don't want to lose him as a "friend" is not being a friend at all, actually. WELS pastors (I am one of them) do not get this. Their concept of friendship is backward.
Imagine, pastors, if a member said to you, "Do not be so hard on Member Bob for cheating on his wife; he's a good guy; he's my friend." Any WELS pastor worth anything would recognize that the person talking this way needs some serious instruction about church discipline. Yet WELS pastors and DPS treat their own personal friends with that same laissez permissive attitude. It's hypocrisy.
I think Pastor Walters reaction to the opposition this blog presents to false doctrine and practice is more personal. It may be that he blames himself for the evil he sees in this blog. "Friends, why is there abortion and active euthanasia and suicide and kids left in garbage bags and hatred and gossip? It’s not just “other people’s fault.” It’s my fault, it’s your fault, because each of us perpetuates the same sinful nature that produces all that stuff."
UOJ to the rescue, "Whether you’ve murdered life through your thoughts, your words, or your actions, the Lord of life points you to a cross, a cross that cries out, “It is finished!” Guilt is finished! Dealing with a hurtful past is finished! Words that I wish I could take back are finished! Thinking the worst about those I don’t like -- finished! Instead, a God who is infatuated with every single human conception says in that tender, inviting voice that only a heavenly Father could have, “I, even I, am he who blots out your transgressions for my own sake, and remembers your sins no more!”
As a dedicated worshiper of the golden UOJ calf Pastor Walters will soon remember that you are all forgiven of the sins you are committing on this blog and stand sinless and righteous in God's sight even without faith in Christ. The anguish that must come from wanting to hate this blog, blaming himself for it, then realizing everyone is sinless and righteous in God sight and so they must be in his sight but really wanting to hate it because it's 'hating' on his classmates who are plundering the false doctrines and practices of the heterodox and satanists…
http://www.christianliferesources.com/pdf/lifesunday/sermons/morethanjustacause.pdf
How much have you received through Thrivent matching funds which has matched funds to Planned Parenthood?
Leyrer,
Speaking of logical fallacies...I didn't say he would be a bad preacher because he is trying to "shut down Ichabod."
I said I couldn't imagine a fit expositor of God's word who can't find fault with Craig Groeschel's filth pile that is LifeChurch.tv
If someone wasn't paying attention in class while Professors Fredrich and Schmidt were talking about the dangers of false teachers, how much else did they miss?
Michael Schottey, you keep tellin' it like it is! He's got the front line view folks.
On anothe topic, Michael, did your sister move to Texas?
from WELS church lady
Mike,
If he's a bad expositor, then he's a bad preacher. You can't have one without the other. It's too broad of a term.
We see here yet another example of how personal relationships always seem to trump true doctrine in the new WELS.
Brett Mayer wrote: “someone who through decision theology has condemned himself to Hell, and is teaching others to do the same, is thought of as being a Christian?!? Ski, "we had AWESOME worship" with Andy Stanley.”
I want to comment about foregiveness, which has implications for eternal life.
How to live in order to enable the Creator in His loving kindness to provide His foregivness is outlined in the Jewish Bible ; and was also taught by the first century Ribi Yehoshua from Nazareth (the Mashiakh; the Messiah). The Jewish Bible – for example Yekhëzqeil (Hezekiel) 18 – promises foregivness to those who do their sincerest to keep Torah. The Creator cannot lie and He does not change (Malakhi 3:6)! According to Tehilim (“Psalms”) 103 the Creator gives his foregivness to those who do their sincerest to keep His berit (“covenant”; the pre-conditions to be included in the berit is according to the Jewish Bible to do ones sincerest to keep Torah).
You will find Ribi Yehoshuas teachings here: www.netzarim.co.il
Anders Branderud
WHA?! No way did the small Lutheran synod debates just get crashed by a Jewish guy. This is madness I tell you, MADNESS!
Anders, the Bible rejects the idea that the forgiveness of sins and righteousness are by works ("do their sincerest to keep...")
The forgiveness of sins and righteousness are only ours by faith in Christ as the only mediator between God and man. That faith is worked in man through hearing the Word of God and the application of the Word in Baptism. This faith is of the Holy Spirit who graciously (purely a gift which is bestowed by God without regard to the person since we are all born dead in sins) works through the Word.
Ephesians 2:8-9, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."
Galations 2:16-21, "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: neverthless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain."
Romans 9:30-33, "What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed."
Titus 3:4-7, "But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life."
I appreciate that you posted your comment.
God's Word can be found here: http://www.htmlbible.com/kjv30/index.htm
Yo Leyrer: you wrote
"If he's a bad expositor, then he's a bad preacher. You can't have one without the other. It's too broad of a term."
What has created your mental short circuit? Michael affirmed that in his opinion that someone can't be a faithful expositor (in your terms "Bad Preacher", same thing.) if they do not have the spiritual wisdom to discern that Groeschel is a false teacher.
Since you insist on being part of the argument I would insist that you address Michael's point instead of dodging it.
I agree with Michael. If someone doesn't have the ability to exercise discernment about obvious Calvinism, obvious false teachings of other flavors, we have to assume that the person in unable to faithfully preach the Word.
But Leyrer, please address this issue.
Brett--
I don't think your comments would convince Anders. I went to the web page he advertised on this blog and it is apparently the work of a group who believe that the real teachings of Jesus were corrupted by the church and "The Apostate Paul." (Wow, someone besides GJ knows how to compose insulting nicknames that reduces an opponent to a stereotype.) I don't think he'd find much creedence in your quotes from Romans, Titus, Galatians, and Ephesians. Noble effort, though.
Wow, I'm on holiday for a few days, and look what happens when I return! Trolls abound, Jews enter the fray, and Canadian pastors threaten to turn out the lights. Ichabod is the place to be!
Mr. Leyrer, I gotta give it up to you. You took a beating, but you hung in there. Great last comment, by the way. Those were my sentiments exactly! +1 for you.
Mr. Schottey, how has your outspokenness affected your standing in WELS? I'd love to "come out," but I am wary of the backlash. I'm interested in hearing what has happened to you.
WELS Church Lady--My sister moved to Tulsa, so close enough to Texas for us Yankees although I hear Texans and Oklahomans aren't very fond of each other.
JR--My utter contempt for the church growth movement led to a few "talkin' to's" at MLC. It didn't lead to my desire to not go on to seminary (but certainly didn't make the decision much harder).
Oh, and Leyrer (are you related to the MLC Leyrer's)...you seem to have a confusion of terms.
Exposit means to "set forth reasons" there is a logical bent to the term.
As for preaching? I spent time in the south and know exactly how long a man can "preach" without saying anything relevant.
In my time with WELSian Church Growth gurus...trust me, they can "preach" for just as long without ever logically saying anything useful about the word of God.
Mr. Reilly states, "I don't think your comments would convince Anders."
Ah, case in point. It's not convincing he needs but by the grace of God for the Holy Spirit to work contrition and faith. Since God has ruled that it is only accomplished through the hearing and application of the Word - Anders was given exactly what is needed. If he rejects God's Word provided then the Holy Spirit will harden him even more through those Words, if God in His mercy calls him through those Words he will in the Holy Spirit's faith cling to Christ alone and be saved.
Speaking of Stereotypes and referencing Chairman Bob's question - Since when did the WELS begin to call teaching false doctrine and exercising false practices shortcomings?
GJ, all theological arguments aside, "judgmental" is in fact the proper Canadian spelling of the word. To poke fun at a pastor in Canada for using correct Canadian spelling is either intentional mean-spiritedness I'll wow the Americans who are ignorant of Canadian spelling rules) or just ignorance of Canadian spelling on your part. If one posts from the US on a British website, one is not expected to use the affectation of British spelling.
Mike and DK,
I see your point now. The fine expositor comment makes sense. What I'm trying to get at is he can still be a good preacher (Preaches the Gospel without error and has a genuine connection with his flock) with still being a bad expositor, as you put it. Because you can know the ins and outs of Lutheran theology but if it's not what people need to help their faith grow then it's not helping anything.
And yes Mike, MLC Leyrer is my father. But again, I act on my own.
mjleyrer, you state, "Because you can know the ins and outs of Lutheran theology but if it's not what people need to help their faith grow then it's not helping anything." Lutheran theology contained in the Lutheran Confessions and exquisitely explaining the Holy Scriptures covers all of the chief articles of the Christian faith. There is nothing else needed. Faith grows through Word and Sacrament alone.
What else other than God's Word is needed to help ones faith grow??
In one post you've taken people to the very edge of the precipice and pointed out the chasm in your understanding caused by the glowing self acceptance of who you are, just the way you are, 'and I'm not changing'.
Your quote above is part and parcel of the tide of people leaving the pure teaching of Lutheran doctrine found in Scripture and the BOC for the shores of false teaching and New Age wisdom.
Matthias,
I have no problem with your father. I never had him in class but still consider him one of the most level headed men I've ever talked to.
I also had a few classes with your brother and went to high school with your sister in law.
Small world this WELS.
Brett,
I think I have trouble explaining myself sometimes. I realize that Lutherans "Don't have all the answers but we have the best ones." I in no way am saying that Lutheranism is not the best means of describing the gospel but I think it goes back to spiritual milk.
I mean, we don't go to tribes in Africa talking about the Lutheran confessions, we go there talking about Christ. And only Christ. The point I was trying to make is that if he is rooted in the confessions, which he is because he went to WLS (say what you will about it), then if he preaches simple Gospel then he is doing his job correctly.
I most definitely understand your concern for the synod. Don't get me wrong, but because certain pastors miss out on Lutheran doctrine, doesn't necessarily mean they will miss out on Christian doctrine.
I'm assuming God wrote the Bible with the anticipation that we would get it wrong at times. That's why it's important to point back to Christ and not the confessions.
And Mike, I've heard a lot of people say that about him. I think the gene just skipped me.
Brett,
Let me try this one more time. Since Anders has utterly rejected the work of "the Apostate Paul" (his term), it would probably make more sense to appeal to him on the basis of Old Testament Scripture. Start with Ezekiel's statement that the soul who sins is the one who is going to die. Follow up with all the calls in the book of Psalms to trust in the Lord for forgiveness (Psalm 51 or 38 would do nicely) and finish up with Isaiah's twin descriptions of the promised Messiah as the mighty God (9:6) and the suffering servant (chapter 53). Anders, if you're still out there, what do all these passages point to if not the "Hellenistic false Jesus" as I believe you term him?
Thank you Pastor "Reilly"!
Beautiful words! You can't go wrong with Scripture when teaching truth and love to non-Christians.
In Christ,
from WELS church lady
Mr. Reilly states, "it would probably make more sense to appeal to him..."
I'm not trying to convince him of anything.
1 Corinthians 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
I'm not opposed to using Old or New Testament in witnessing. But attempts to 'appeal to' or 'convince' when it comes to someone carnaly minded is wrong as the these verses attest.
1 Corinthians 9:22To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some. 23I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings.
The above is one of the most misquoted and misused portions of scripture--yet it strikes to the heart of this issue.
Brett, you want to preach Christ crucified...to a Jew?
By all means, get there...but its not where you start.
Look at Paul's sermons. Did he walk into Synagogues and preach the same sermon that he did in the Aeropagus? Or did he preach a different sermon in Lystra than he did before the brothers in Jerusalem?
As for your overall attitude, you seem to have confused our mission to unbelievers with our mission to unrepentant Christians. Jesus didn't look upon Jerusalem and spit...he wept.
Jesus, and Paul, had a love for unbelievers you would rather call "carnally minded". Pardon?
ALL unbelievers, all men, are naturally against God.
But nevermind, he doesn't agree with you...just shun him.
We, as men, can do nothing to help the power of God's word but Paul, in his sermons and his writings show that certain applications to certain audiences might be preferred.
Last time I checked we don't just say "Christ Crucified" and walk out of church.
Michael Schottey, I don't know where you're coming from with the issues you bring up.
First you quote 1 Cor. 9:22 and then state, "The above is one of the most misquoted and misused portions of scripture--yet it strikes to the heart of this issue." You then mock me and state that I shouldn't preach Christ crucified to a Jew.
You infer that I spit on someone - (Anders?) not clear from your fragmented statements.
You take me to task for calling an unbeliever "carnaly minded" instead of just "an unbeliever"
You claim that I shunned him.
You declare that no one is to simply state 'Christ crucified'.
I disagree with everything you claim except that I did refer to Anders and carnaly minded - which he is having rejected Christ. Romans 8:6, "For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace." If it's too icky for you don't use the term but it applies and is an accurate description of the mind of an unbeliever not having been born again through faith in Christ.
You're wrong to fault me for addressing forgiveness of sins soley through faith to a person even a Jew who confesses works righteousness. Note I didn't have an issue with Reilly suggesting to address Old Testament application of the Word but my issue with him is his implying that Anders is to be 'convinced' or to 'appeal' to Anders as though his conversion had anything to do with Ander's reasoning.
Post a Comment