Trepid Lutherans Very Luther-Like - See His Hymn

"Ichabod is really messed up about UOJ, right Jay?
Yes, I sure hope we are not too late to register."


The Trepid Lutherans (especially Webber and Rydecki) remind me of Luther's great hymn:


"O Lord, Look Down from Heaven, Behold"
by Martin Luther, 1483-1546

1. O Lord, look down from heaven, behold
And let Thy pity waken:
How few are we within Thy Fold,
Thy saints by men forsaken!
True faith seems quenched on every hand,
Men suffer not Thy Word to stand;
Dark times have us o'ertaken.

2. With fraud which they themselves invent
Thy truth they have confounded;
Their hearts are not with one consent
On Thy pure doctrine grounded.
While they parade with outward show,
They lead the people to and fro,
In error's maze astounded.

3. May God root out all heresy
And of false teachers rid us
Who proudly say: "Now, where is he
That shall our speech forbid us?
By right or might we shall prevail;
What we determine cannot fail;
We own no lord and master."

4. Therefore saith God, "I must arise,
The poor My help are needing;
To Me ascend My people's cries,
And I have heard their pleading.
For them My saving Word shall fight
And fearlessly and sharply smite,
The poor with might defending."

5. As silver tried by fire is pure
From all adulteration,
So through God's Word shall men endure
Each trial and temptation.
Its light beams brighter through the cross,
And, purified from human dross,
It shines through every nation.

6. Thy truth defend, O God, and stay
This evil generation;
And from the error of their way
Keep Thine own congregation.
The wicked everywhere abound
And would Thy little flock confound;
But Thou art our Salvation.

Hymn 260
The Lutheran Hymnal
Text: Ps. 12
Author: Martin Luther, 1523
Translated by: composite
Titled: "Ach Gott vom Himmel, sieh darein"
Tune: "Ach Gott vom Himmel"
1st Published in: Enchiridion
Town: Erfurt, 1524

They disavow two justifications, but talk about two justifications, with an emphasis on declaring the entire world forgiven of its sin - without faith.

They are not "apt to teach."

I enjoy watching them flail and flounder in public, since their false doctrine can no longer be kept in hiding and revealed only to the initiates of their Gnostic sect.

Sloppy language comes from sloppy and erroneous thinking. We do not need to invent new words and import strange analogies to understand justification by faith. They imagine themselves profound while leading people to and fro, but they are profoundly wrong.


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Daniel Baker has left a new comment on your post "UOJ Refuted by a Single Quotation":

The problem seems to be, after viewing a number of "UOJ" apologists on Intrepid Lutherans now, that when you get to the heart of the matter (namely, the ridiculous quotes like "all are declared righteous" and "guilt-free saints in hell"), the professors of this terminology admit that these statements are radical and not confessional or biblical (like Jay Webber just did), and are only rationalized through heavy mental exercise. What's more, they clearly admit that the terminology of "objective" and "subjective" justification is not in any way, shape, or form biblical and confessional. Finally, they assert (like Samuel Thrace did) that the difference between "UOJ" and unlimited atonement is so minuscule, that those who raise qualms with "UOJ" are virtually idiots.

In light of these revelations, I simply ask: Why persist in this admittedly unbiblical/unconfessional language, when we could simply use the words of Scripture/the Confessions - particularly since our viewpoints are (apparently) virtually the same anyways?

It seems to me that the only possible answers are !) there truly is difference between "UOJ" and universal atonement, or more likely 2) adherents of this terminology are unwilling to admit that WELS and its early theologians uses/used questionable terminology - because WELS can NEVER be wrong.

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Brett Meyer has left a new comment on your post "UOJ Refuted by a Single Quotation":

Daniel is getting close to a critical yet difficult realization. The repeated use of "sloppy language" and "poor wording" that is in itself consistent in teaching from one generation to another, from one (W)ELS theologian to another, can no longer be attributed to clumsy writing, poor theological training or idiocy. The words used to frame the entire doctrine of UOJ are precise and consistent from one public (W)ELS confession to another as demonstrated with quotes from Zarling, Buchholz, Becker and the (W)ELS This We Believe etc.

Anyone who states that the (W)ELS doesn't teach fogiveness before faith here the (W)ELS doctrinal book of public confession, Our Great Heritage, states, "And yet many Lutherans still labor under the delusion that God does not forgive us unless we believe. Instead of seeing faith as nothing more than the spiritual hand with which we make the forgiveness of God our own, they see it as a reason why God forgives us. They believe that Christ has indeed provided forgiveness for all men, that God is willing to forgive them, but before he really forgives he first of all demands that we should be sorry for our sins and that we should have faith. Just have faith they say, and then God will forgive you. All the right words are there. The only thing wrong is that the words are in the wrong order. God does not forgive us IF we have faith. He has forgiven us long ago when he raised his Son from the dead." (p. 59)"