WELS church lady has left a new comment on your post "Robert Preus - Justification and Rome":
"The whole world is saved, just not heaven saved."
Now tell me which Bible translation is the above quote found? He who does not believe will be condemned! "Mishmash" was the term used by DP Buccholz. He called both Becker and Myers Justification teachings a mishmash. "Somebody" talked the DP into writing the essay.(more like coercion). I motion that the DP write a new paper. "Through faith in Jesus."
My pastor quoted, "Through faith in Jesus" several times during a funeral. When pastors preach the Word as written, there is no room for UOJ garbage.
I would like to see how far one gets with the fourth Kokomo statement being used in a WELS funeral sermon. Kretzmann did not teach UOJ. Fuerbringer did not teach UOJ. J.T. Mueller did not teach it in his "My Church and Others." However, Mueller did use the term "objective justification" in his 1934 Dogmatics. When writing the Dogmatics, he used Franz Pieper as a source! I still do not understand where Pieper came up will forgiveness without faith. Faith is required, Pieper said it is not required. Faith is implanted by the Holy Spirit.(from hearing the Word) Even the BOC says that faith is needed.
In Christ,
from WELS church lady
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Brett Meyer has left a new comment on your post "WELS Church Lady Unloads on UOJ":
WELS Church Lady,
I understand and am glad you know I'm not trying to dismantle your comment. Your disgust and righteous anger is, in my opinion, appropriate to the severity of the problem and overall situation.
While reading Kretzmann, I also saw mainly faithful confession concerning the doctrine of Justification. His nod to UOJ may have simply been a mistake due to other factors than direct intention. This is another lesson for us. Many people today will read false doctrine and say, "but it can be understood correctly if..." All the while they allow the false teaching to exist and future generations only see the false teaching and without a Berean effort using the foundation of Scripture and the Confessions, they fall to such false doctrines.
You're right there is nothing in the BOC to support UOJ. Anyone, including Buchholz and Schroeder who point to the Ministry of the Keys as proof are blatant deceivers and not only mock and blaspheme Christ but also His Church who have the BOC and can plainly see that the assurance of the forgiveness of sins is only given to those who confess faith in Christ. Payment for sins, Christ as Mediator, is not the same as our obtaining Christ as Mediator, for the remission of sins. Christ is only obtained as Mediator through faith worked graciously by the Holy Ghost through God's Word in the Means of Grace.
Like identifying Kretzmann's error, it will be good if everyone calls it like it is and not as they would like it to be. Then, maybe, the clergy would begin to proof read their own writings and hold their tongues in an effort to ensure pure doctrine is taught and right practices are advanced.
7 comments:
(W)ELS Pastor Nathan Seiltz attributed his quote to August Pieper, "K. While the election controversy was in its second stage in the first years of the 20th Century, a somewhat related controversy over objective justification erupted. This development prompted August Pieper to write for the third volume of the Quartalschrift his unforgettable article. The conclusion reads: One cannot oppose any doctrine of God’s Word with impunity; this increases sin and guilt, damages consciences and blinds the heart. One error begets another, as in the election controversy the insistence on intuitu fidei soon brought with itself the synergistic doctrine of conversion. But whoever molests the doctrine of justification stabs the gospel in the heart and is on the way of losing entirely Christian doctrine and personal faith and of falling into the arms of heathenism, even if he ever so much emphasizes justification by faith.".
There are consequences to establishing doctrine on the reason and thoughts of previous generations of theologians who themselves departed from the BOC under apostate influence. UOJ has no Confessional or Scriptural foundation and as such is another gospel as Paul spoke of in Galatians 1.
Both Pieper's, however, were taken under the arm of their professor at Halle University, Prof. August Tholuck, who was an avowed Universalist. They were fed both spiritually and physically by him as was (W)ELS' prominent theologian Adolf Hoenecke who went to America against Tholuck's wishes.
Tholuck's universalism was instilled into August Pieper and Hoenecke at Halle University.
Links to this information can be found within this excellent Ichabod post:
http://ichabodthegloryhasdeparted.blogspot.com/2008/11/hoenecke-and-tholuck.html
I would argue that Buchholz was not coerced into writing the (W)ELS 2005 Convention essay on UOJ. I discussed that essay with him in November of 2008. He remains a proponent of UOJ and his essay established another benchmark in the history of perverting Christ's doctrine of Justification and helping others to fall away from the true faith as declared in Scripture and correctly explained in the Lutheran Confessions. One only has to read the myriad 2010 (W)ELS South Central essays on UOJ to see how they continued the pattern of establishing doctrine on the false teaching of previous generations, Buchholz and Becker. Their offence is not benign, it is a malignant cancer that has become systemic even beyond the visible manifestations that they see.
WELS Church Lady rightly asks, "The whole world is saved, just not heaven saved."
Now tell me which Bible translation is the above quote found?
I believe they use the NIV.
Brett,
I now must say that you are splitting hairs.
ALL MEN ARE SAVED (the guilt of their sins has been washed away), because Christ paid the price for ALL sins. Once again I would go to Romans 5: 12 – 19.
Are all going to heaven (saved)? NO. Because not all believe in Jesus as their Savior. Just as the analogy of the money in the bank asserts: If you don’t believe it is there for you the account will do you no good.
Objective justification says that the forgiveness of sins has been completely earned by Christ’s merit, i.e. it is “objectively” there for faith to accept. The faith of the believer doesn’t add anything or complete justification.
That’s all I can say.
In His Service,
Stephan Rodmyre
(W)ELS CDS Principal
I don't get the point of all of this UOJ stuff.
Norm, you're so silly.
Kretzmann did not teach UOJ.
Yes, he did.
Kretzmann, "On account of our offenses, our sins and transgressions, God raised Christ
from the dead, because His object was to justify us, and this object was attained in the resurrection. Thus the resurrection of Christ effected our justification. The expiation through Christ’s sufferings on the cross, the atonement of death, have been sealed by the resurrection of Christ; for it is a declaration before all the world that the object of Christ’s death has been gained, that God has accepted the reconciliation, that the victory of Jesus is a formal and solemn absolution which God has pronounced upon sinful mankind. And so He is our Lord, and we have become His own. By the faith which God wrought in our hearts, we have accepted His atonement and are declared to be righteous in the sight of God." Page 6 (last paragraph)
http://www.kretzmannproject.org/ROM/ROM_4.htm
Thanks Brett. My bad! I failed to read the Kretzmann project in its entirety. I read the sections under "Justification" and "Election." These two sections appeared to have clean language in terms of Justification. I decided to read the Kretzmann section under Romans.(it is several pages long) I found some STUFF that was not worded under the Justification and Elections headings.
"In this way Christ earned righteousness for all man; the OBJECTIVE JUSTIFICATION concerns the whole world: every person without exception belongs to the number of those for whom the benefit of Christ's work has been obtained. Of the fact that this OBJECTIVE JUSTIFICATION actually becomes the property of the individual person by faith."
This reminds me of pastors who preach an excellent sermon about faith. These same pastors backflip when writting an essay or teaching a Bible Class about faith. In the Lutheran Confessions, there is NO exegesis to anything close to OJ/UJ dialogue. The quotes that I provided are cound in the Romans 5 section of the Kretzmann Project.
In Christ,
from WELS church lady
WELS Church Lady,
I understand and am glad you know I'm not trying to dismantle your comment. Your disgust and righteous anger is, in my opinion, appropriate to the severity of the problem and overall situation.
While reading Kretzmann, I also saw mainly faithful confession concerning the doctrine of Justification. His nod to UOJ may have simply been a mistake due to other factors than direct intention. This is another lesson for us. Many people today will read false doctrine and say, "but it can be understood correctly if..." All the while they allow the false teaching to exist and future generations only see the false teaching and without a Berean effort using the foundation of Scripture and the Confessions, they fall to such false doctrines.
You're right there is nothing in the BOC to support UOJ. Anyone, including Buchholz and Schroeder who point to the Ministry of the Keys as proof are blatant deceivers and not only mock and blaspheme Christ but also His Church who have the BOC and can plainly see that the assurance of the forgiveness of sins is only given to those who confess faith in Christ. Payment for sins, Christ as Mediator, is not the same as our obtaining Christ as Mediator, for the remission of sins. Christ is only obtained as Mediator through faith worked graciously by the Holy Ghost through God's Word in the Means of Grace.
Like identifying Kretzmann's error, it will be good if everyone calls it like it is and not as they would like it to be. Then, maybe, the clergy would begin to proof read their own writings and hold their tongues in an effort to ensure pure doctrine is taught and right practices are advanced.
Christ's enduring blessing, hope and mercy to you and yours,
In Christ,
Brett
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