Propter Christum has left a new comment on your post "DP Buchholz Offers First Contribution In the Beyon...":
FC SD, III, 57: "But, since it is the obedience as above mentioned [not only of one nature, but] of the entire person, it is a complete satisfaction and expiation for the human race, by which the eternal, immutable righteousness of God, revealed in the Law, has been satisfied, and is thus our righteousness, which avails before God and is revealed in the Gospel, and upon which faith relies before God, which God imputes to faith, as it is written, Rom. 5:19: For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of One shall many be made righteous; and 1 John 1:7: The blood of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, cleanseth us from all sin. Likewise: The just shall live by his faith, Hab. 2:4; Rom. 1:17."
Doesn't this explain and rightly relate and contrast the objective sense of God's atonement for all people and His imputation of this righteousness only to those who believe? Saying that someone has his Knapp-sack on because he confesses UOJ would be to say that someone is a papist if he confesses the real presence, or that he is Reformed if he rejects the papacy! Luther taught UOJ. He called Jesus the solus peccator in his 1535 Galatians lectures. So did Jesus not take away the sins of the world? Did He not become sin? Did God not reconcile the world to Himself? God doesn't merely make it available for your sins not to be counted against you. Rather, Paul tells us that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their tresspasses (sic) against them.
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Daniel Baker has left a new comment on your post "DP Buchholz Offers First Contribution In the Beyon...":
Propter Christum said:
"So did Jesus not take away the sins of the world? Did He not become sin? Did God not reconcile the world to Himself? God doesn't merely make it available for your sins not to be counted against you. Rather, Paul tells us that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their tresspasses against them."
It seems to me that this is a non-sequitir. Just because Christ paid for the sins of the entire world and reconciled the same unto Himself, it does not logically follow that all men are de facto forgiven. If this is the case, of what use is the Church and the ministry of the Keys!?
Christ clearly says: "Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; [and] whose soever [sins] ye retain, they are retained" (John 20:23). He does not say "You can assure men that their sins were remitted when I died on the cross."
More than this, of what use are the blessed Sacraments!? Were our baptisms not for the remission of sin? Does repentance not continue the same? Is the Sacrament of the Altar not a participation in the body and blood of Christ given for the forgiveness of sins?
Yes, all of this is always and only possible because of the objective fact of Christ's substitutionary and atoning work on Calvary; certainly, our faith should be placed in that truth rather than "having faith in faith," as some put it.
However, to suggest that forgiveness is applied to all people everywhere before they were born and regardless of time is not only illogical, but it negates the point and purpose of the Sacraments and ministry of the Church. Moreover, it gives way to the very thing it purports to prevent - an undue emphasis on our ability to "believe" - "Christ did everything; He even forgave your sins before you were born! All you have to do now is believe it!"
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Brett Meyer has left a new comment on your post "DP Buchholz Offers First Contribution In the Beyon...":
Kermit, you use of Romans 5:18 to contend that God Justified - forgave the whole world outside of the Means of Grace working contrition and faith in Christ teaches the same Universalism as Buchholz.
"Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men." - Romans 5:18
If outside the Word God gives all that is Christ's (righteousness for the forgiveness of sins) "leads to justification" then you also teach universalism because the same passage states, "leads to...life for all men." Life is salvation and thus you teach Universalism.
The Confessional Lutheran teaching concerning Romans 5:18 is that all righteousness is in Christ and never apart from him. Therefore by faith in Christ, worked graciously by the Holy Ghost through the Means of Grace (Word and Baptism), He is in us and we are in Him. We have his righteousness for the forgiveness of all of our sins through faith. Through faith we die to sin and are raised to Life in Christ to no longer live under the Law but under Grace. This is all through faith - that very righteousness of Christ, the Author and Finisher of our faith.
So indeed the Gospel, the promise of the forgiveness of sins through faith in Christ, comes to all men but they do not partake of it and neither does God declare them justified or righteous outside of faith in Him.
The Confessions faithfully declare that God does not consider anyone just outside of faith in Christ.
In Christ,
Brett Meyer
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GJ -
Kermit is Andrew Preus - http://forensicjustification.blogspot.com/
Propter Christum is Andrew Jacob Preus. Is he the same one? I am not sure. I need all three volumes of the Preus Family Directory. Here is a brief outline:
Governor Jake Preus had two sons, JAO Preus (LCMS president, formerly Springfield Seminary LCMS president) and Robert Preus (president, Springfield-Ft. Wayne Seminary).
JAO Preus had one son, Jack, who is a college president.
Robert Preus had around eleven sons, including Daniel Preus (former LCMS VP) and Rolf (who also had many sons). Rolf's sons seem to be the ones posting here and on LQ.
Klemet and Peter Preus, both pastors, are sons of Robert Preus.
As I noted before in a comment, this is a younger Preus taking issue with what Robert Preus wrote in Justification and Rome. Robert Preus quoted Calov with approval.
I am publishing all four Preus graphics below.
The young Preus argument is the same sort of rationalization I see repeated many times over, and it came from Norwegian Pietism. The Swedish Augustana Synod took issue with it in the 19th century.
- Here is the logic - if Christ took on all sin in the atonement, all people became righteous (justified).
- A second wobbly leg in their tripod of proofs is Jesus being justified in the Spirit. Because He was justified, declared righteous, all people are also declared righteous.
- The third wobbly leg is Walther's statement that God absolved the world when Christ rise from the dead. If CFW said it, no one can doubt it, even though it makes Law and Gospel a bundle of contradictions. Thus they cited Romans 4:25 even though the entire verse in context opposes what they claim to be true. They do not want to admit to Pietist Georg Knapp, whose double justification formula was in print before Father Walther landed in the Big Easy.
- The Scriptures.
- Martin Luther.
- Melanchthon.
- Chytraeus.
- Chemnitz.
- The Book of Concord.
- Gerhard.
- Calov.
- Quenstedt.
- Krauth.
- The early LCMS in its German catechism and its current KJV catechism.
- The Gausewitz catechism.
- Lenski, although he seems to have tried a compromise in language.
- Robert Preus, in Justification and Rome.
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Brett Meyer has left a new comment on your post "UOJ Crippled by Man's Logic, But Unhampered by God...":
Daniel makes very good points. As Daniel shows how Objective Justification is opposed to the Sacraments and The Book of Concord clearly states the same here:
BOC: 6] Let any one of the adversaries come forth and tell us when remission of sins takes place. O good God, what darkness there is! They doubt whether it is in attrition or in contrition that remission of sins occurs. And if it occurs on account of contrition, what need is there of absolution, what does the power of the keys effect, if sins have been already remitted?…" http://www.bookofconcord.org/defense_10_repentance.php
Here are additional BOC quotes that show that no one is justified in God's sight without faith in Christ.
Defense of the Augsburg Confession, Article IV Of Justification
67] "Faith cometh by hearing. And proof can be derived even from this that faith justifies, because, if justification occurs only through the Word, and the Word is apprehended only by faith, it follows that faith justifies."
71] "but we maintain this, that properly and truly, by faith itself, we are for Christ's sake accounted righteous, or are acceptable to God. And because "to be justified" means that out of unjust men just men are made, or born again, it means also that they are pronounced or accounted just. For Scripture speaks in both ways. [The term "to be justified" is used in two ways: to denote, being converted or regenerated; again, being accounted righteous. Accordingly we wish first to show this, that faith alone makes of an unjust, a just man, i.e., receives remission of sins".
http://www.bookofconcord.org/defense_4_justification.php
Propter looks to Luther's Galatians essay for proof that he taught UOJ but unfortunately it cannot be found there. Here is a quote from that essay (and there are many!) that rejects the doctrine of UOJ:
74. But what is the process whereby Christ gives us such a spirit and redeems us from under the Law? The work is effected solely by faith. He who believes that Christ came to redeem us, and that he has accomplished it, is really redeemed. As he believes, so is it with him. Faith carries with it the child-making spirit. The apostle here explains by saying that Christ has redeemed us from under the Law that we might receive the adoption of sons. As before stated, all must be effected through faith. Now we have discussed the five points of the verse.
http://www.trinitylutheranms.org/MartinLuther/MLSermons/Galatians4_1_7.html
There is no universal reconciliation with Scripture, Luther or the Confessions. Christ indeed died and paid for all sins but all righteousness is in and of Christ. Without being in Christ and Christ in us by faith we do not have access to His Righteousness for the forgiveness of sins, Justification, righteousness and eternal life. These three are enjoyed instantly and fully only through the gracious work of faith, worked by the Holy Spirit through the Means of Grace alone.
