Eastern Orthodoxy and the Church of Rome are havens for those who abhor the silliness of Church Growth, Emergent Church, Becoming Missional. Although EO and Rome seem to have enormous doctrinal structures, based on long histories and weighty tomes of dogma, they are big tent operations. Smells and bells are fine, but let's not upset the troops about doctrinal issues. There is a lobby, a little corner in the tent, for every persuasion, inclination and affection.
Long ago, Eastern Orthodoxy wore itself out on the Two Natures of Christ. Bloody riots started over the meaning of statues of Christ. That is why the Orthodox adopted the icon wall, the two-dimensional depictions. Concordia Seminary Ft. Wayne likes Eastern Orthodoxy and Rome because the faculty would rather avoid the real issues. The bickering of the Syn Conference Lutherans is just a way to feign doctrinal purity while chasing every fad since Moses. Those who hate Fuller cling to Rome like lint on Velcro.
The WELS Church and Change re-education brochure, above, reminds me of a cheerful used car brochure, absent check-marks about satisfaction guaranteed and quality control. Appearing on such brochures would be a career-killer if the sect actually knew what the Confessions taught. But no, this is a career-booster in WELS, just as the equivalent would be in Missouri or the Little Sect on the Prairie. All are dying - wonder why? My first guess is - not enough coaching going on. We need more clergy couple coaches coaching the coached, so they can learn how to coach the coachable in a winsome, inspirational way.
Somehow I missed a pilgrimage to the C. F. W. Walther shrine. Perhaps I could not get enough vibes going to make that trip, to stand in awe of a criminal who did not found a synod, but gets credit for it, a felon who did not stop at kidnapping his own niece and nephew from his father's parsonage, a mob organizer and thief who lectured on Law and Gospel without seminaries crying themselves hoarse - with laughter.
24 comments:
Ok, is that picture of the pope in a Santa Claus suit a photoshop product, or is it real?
With modern technology it is getting increasingly hard to tell what is real and what is not...
The expression on his face in combination with the Santa Claus suit makes me think it MUST be photoshop...
Grumpy, Grumpy. That is a real photo and not changed in any way. B-16 was sporting an unusual type of Italian hat.
You can drag images into a search and find out about them.
I appreciate the compliment.
"Pope Benedict XVI has re-introduced several papal garments which had previously fallen into disuse. On 21 December 2005, the pope began wearing the camauro, the traditional red papal hat usually worn in the winter. It had not been seen since the pontificate of Pope John XXIII (1958–1963)."
- Wikipedia
Well, Lutheranism is just Catholicism with half the kneeling and twice the guilt after all.
Although I have yet to meet the Lutheran who actually admired the Catholic Church. As a general rule, the Catholics are LOATHED by the Lutherans.
So, so true Epistler! Most modern WELSian Lutherans especially LOATHE anything that might look, sound, smell, feel, or taste catholic; that is, resemble in any way shape or form that which came from the Church Catholic, namely, the Church of the Apostles of Jesus Christ; the historic, ancient, Biblical, Church of the foundational Creeds of Christianity! The vast majority, with the either full vocal or silent approval of their leaders, are way too busy trying to be what the late comedian Flip Wilson used to call "The Church of What's Happening Now!" I know that reference marks me as over the hill. But I'm only -
One Eponymous Archon
One Eponymous Archon,
Maybe the reluctance of most WELS pastors and congregations to look and sound like the Roman Catholic Church is because, sadly, the RCC took its wonderful heritage of creeds and worship and filled it up with the most foul man-made, works-based religion found on this earth. I'm glad that the congregation I attend doesn't have a "catholicky" feel. It reinforces that we do not teach the vile salvation by works creed of the RCC.
Samuel Thrace said, "I'm glad that the congregation I attend doesn't have a 'catholicky' feel."
Your congregation (WELS, I assume) is out of step with the congregations of the Evangelical Lutheran Church, which by confession will proudly have a "catholicky" feel:
"Falsely are our churches accused of abolishing the Mass; for the Mass is retained among us, and celebrated with the highest reverence. Nearly all the usual ceremonies are also preserved," - Augsburg Confession, Article XXIV.
"...in doctrine and ceremonies nothing has been received on our part against Scripture or the Church Catholic." - Augsburg Confession, Conclusion.
I've been in non-"catholicky" WELS churches (most are). They are "icky." Maybe the better word "sect."
AC V,
Please learn the difference between descriptive and prescriptive statements. The statements you quoted are clearly descriptive, meant to appease those in the church who thought these new Evangelicals (as Luther preferred they be called) were throwing everything familiar out the door. They were not prescribing how every church that was to come out of the Reformation was to worship.
A prescriptive statement in this matter comes from FC SD X: Therefore we believe, teach, and confess that the congregation of God of every place and every time has, according to its circumstances, the good right, power, and authority [in matters truly adiaphora] to change, to diminish, and to increase them, without thoughtlessness and offense, in an orderly and becoming way, as at any time it may be regarded most profitable, most beneficial, and best for [preserving] good order, [maintaining] Christian discipline [and for eujtaxiva worthy of the profession of the Gospel], and the edification of the Church.
Dear AC V, poor demented Sam is troting out the same old tired, worn, crapola that the majority of WELSians continually misquote to support their hatred and distain for anything truly ecumenical in the good sense of the term - as in, relating to the three Creeds of Christendom. Not only can the devil quote Holy Scripture to suit his ends, he can and does also quote the Book of Concord when it meets his needs. These people make me want to retch! I can say that 'cuz I'm not a castrated WELS Pastor - 99% of them. I'm only -
One Eponymous Archon
Samuel Thrace,
Your line of reasoning has brought WELS "ministries" such as the CORE and others, which feel very "Evangelicalicky."
When the Confessions say "This is the way we do it," then that "way" is going to carry some clout, don't you think? The confessors kept the catholic (understand that word correctly!) ways of worship because by and large they best proclaimed the gospel. The spirit of a confessional Lutheran church's ministry and worship is going to feel more "catholic" than anything else.
What do you make of this confession of faith: "Of Confession they teach that Private Absolution ought to be retained in the churches," - AC XI.
When was the last time you saw a WELS church offer Private Confession and Absolution? Probably not too recently. And that's no wonder because according to the WELS confession of Objective Justification, there is no need for Private Confession and Absolution. All your sins were forgiven on the cross. Just think hard enough about it and you'll be forgiven.
I can hear it now, "Adiophora! The typical WELS approach is to throw the baby out with the bathwater because "we don't have to do it that way."
AC V and Archon,
I'll leave you with one more Luther quote. This comes from the conclusion to his introduction to his German Mass. Enjoy!
To sum up, this and every other order is so to be used that should any
misuse arise in connexion therewith, it should be immediately done away with
and another made: just as King Hezekiah broke up and did away with the brazen
serpent, which God Himself had commanded to be made, because the children of
Israel misused it. Forms and Orders should be for the promotion of faith and
the service of love, and not to injury of faith. When they have no more to
do, they are forthwith dead and of no more worth; just as, if good coin is
counterfeit, for fear of misuse it is abolished and destroyed; or as, when
new shoes have become old and dry, we wear them no longer but throw them away
and buy new ones. Order is an outward thing. Be it as good as it may, it can
fall into misuse. Then it is no longer order but disorder. So no Order has
any intrinsic worth of its own, as hitherto the Popish Order has been thought
to have. But all Order has its life, worth, strength, and virtue in right
use; else it is worthless and fit for nothing. God's Spirit and grace be with
us all. Amen.
"Forms and Orders should be for the promotion of faith and the service of love, and not to injury of faith."
Amen to that! That's why the official writings of the Evangelical Lutheran Church say so many positive things about the way Lutherans worshiped at the time of the Reformation. In fact, when the Lutherans defended their confession about worship in the Augsburg Confession, they said, "At the outset we must again make the preliminary statement that we do not abolish the Mass, but religiously (!!!) maintain and defend it. For among us masses are celebrated every Lord's Day and on the other festivals, in which the Sacrament is offered to those who wish to use it, after they have been examined and absolved. And the usual public ceremonies are observed, the series of lessons, of prayers, vestments, and other like things." - Apology, Article XXIV.
There is the mistaken impression among Lutherans of the Pietist persuasion that Luther and the Lutherans weren't done yet with reforming the forms of worship, as if eventually services in Lutheran churches would be something entirely different and new from what was in use at the time the Book of Concord was written.
That, of course, has happened in many Lutheran churches today, but it has not been an improvement. Usually the changes are of the Evangelical stripe, which betrays and promotes a false theology of glory and not the theology of the cross.
What drives the worship agenda of so many WELS pastors and parishes is not "how does this best proclaim the gospel?" But "what keeps their attention?" And so long as it doesn't feel "Catholic" (or Missouri Synod).
I wonder if the WELS members realize the hatefulness toward the Book of Concord packaged in the future pastors at the Sausage Factory.
They graduate thinking the Book of Concord is boring and irrelevant. Anyone who thinks otherwise is despised and denounced as a "legalist."
WELSian knowledge of the Confessions is scant, but that does not matter because they are allergic to the BoC anyway.
I am not up to date on Missouri, but they seem to have two seminaries aimed at Rome or Fuller, while WELS is focused on Fuller alone. If Missouri is an improvement over WELS, I do not see it. Bigness makes conformity in Missouri more difficult - a saving grace perhaps.
The more I read about Walther's criminal behavior and lying, his greed and obsession for power, the more I realize he is the template for Syn Conference leadership.
Not to worry. They are all in a state of collapse, even with their Schwan and Thrivent loot. They worship money, so God lets them choke on it. They do not respect the efficacy of the Word or the Means of Grace.
Question: how did the Apostles get by without all those lucrative grants, free napkins, and deluxe retreats at posh resorts?
"They graduate thinking the Book of Concord is boring and irrelevant. Anyone who thinks otherwise is despised and denounced as a 'legalist.'"
Yup.
I've heard it said that "Missouri is six times bigger than WELS, six times better than WELS, and six times worse than WELS."
These days you've just got to say you're "Lutheran" (not WELS, LCMS, etc.) and then find the best church you can that is actually or closest to being BoC Lutheran (whether LCMS, WELS, others?) in order to receive the means of grace.
"The closer to Luther, the better the theologian."
Another good motto would be, "The closer the pastor is to synodical leadership, the worse the theologian."
The ones favored by the structure are the apostates. The scandals are hidden. The divorces are excused. The false doctrine is defended.
And here we just witnessed a beautiful rendition of all the reasons that Christianity doesn't work. Because the representatives of the religion are too focused on how they can exalt themselves doctrinally above their peers that they become the very thing that they claim to abhor: men who have given into every inclination of their darker nature.
Samuel: During the 1940's the Lutherans of Denmark saved their entire Jewish population by smuggling them to Sweden The Lutherans of Germany sent 3,000 Catholic priests to the gas chambers. I don't think any of us have any doubt which sort of Lutheran you represent. It is evident from your words that any inclination of compassion is gone from your heart. You've labeled a billion inhabitants of the earth as "vile." You truly are a man of the Christian God.
I encourage you all to take a step back for a moment. Despite your large vocabulary and excellent quotations from Fuhrer Luther, in the end your all squabbling over the most futile parts of your exhausted religion. If it makes you feel more devout to wear a hat similar to what the Pope does during your ceremonies, have at it! If you think such things are vile and dreadfully sinful, more power too you. Go on condemning each other to eternal bickerfests.
Meanwhile, people like me who were the victim of religious abuse all our lives look back so we can have our own private regrets about what you have done. It used to give us such comfort - when we were children. To escape what you do, with the very words you all just uttered, we had to escape God too.
AC V,
I succumb to the temptation of replying to what you said I can hear it now, "Adiophora! The typical WELS approach is to throw the baby out with the bathwater because "we don't have to do it that way.
When an Adiaphora has been turned into a Law, that is where your tradition of men, comes into play. Something Jesus condemned. Let us judge rightly, Jesus said.
In being a traditionalist, try not to Romanise Lutheranism.
The Romanism you see in the West where they live in Protestant dominated countries is not the same where they dominate.
I know and I have seen both sides, I was born in a hard core Roman family, I heard the Mass in Latin, and I was catechized using the blue Baltimore booklet. You have seen nothing yet.
Rome affirms more confessions than Lutheranism's BoC, in the end, they deny JBFA.
You should see how they employ sophistry to justify their man made traditions, I don't think you have seen anything yet. Most who turned Roman have been sucked up by the traditionalism justified by Rome's sophistry, claiming they are the true preservers of primitive authentic Christianity.
LPC
Just to show how little they comprehend the Book of Concord, WELS uses the adiaphora article of the Formula of Concord to justify doing anything they want. As Timmerman of Holy Word, Austin said, "Almost everything in worship is adiaphora."
A casual reading of that article shows that nothing can be given up during a confessional crisis, not even the so-call matters of indifference. That is precisely where Lutherans must not show affinity with Rome or Geneva, Pasadena or Willow Creek.
Epistler, I'm praying for you.
Truly, I am.
The discussion here shows a love for a Savior who died so that we might live. The way Christians worship reflects and teaches the truths of what Christ did for us, so we dearly want to make sure we honor him in thanks by worshiping in the way that clearly proclaims his name.
The struggles, yes, even among Christians, will not end until Christ comes again to take us to be with him where we and our worship will be perfect.
LPC, it's so difficult to define what good "Lutheran worship" is. It's more "caught" than taught. To borrow the words of United States Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart, "I know when I see it."
However, would you agree that using the observable standards of rites and orders of service in use in today's churches, and using the prescriptions and descriptions of worship and ministries as confessed in the Book of Concord, would you agree that a Lutheran service today would/should look and feel more "Catholic" than "Evangelical"?
Gregory L. Jackson said...
..."nothing can be given up during a confessional crisis, not even the so-call matters of indifference. That is precisely where Lutherans must not show affinity with Rome or Geneva, Pasadena or Willow Creek."
The problem is that because we live in such ecumenical times that it will always be a confessional crisis. Samuel Thrace and others are so disgusted with the RCC that they want nothing to do with liturgical worship and are embarrassed by official Lutheran confessional writings that affirm worship that to many contemporary worshipers would look and feel "Catholic."
On the other hand, the Evangelicals have made such inroads into the contemporary Lutheran psyche that many want to ape the so-called Mega-church model of worship because it attracts the masses and keeps their attention. And we CAN do it, because after all, worship is "adiaphora."
My point is: It's always a confessional crisis. So, in our worship forms we best stick to what best confesses Christ. I'm convinced, as our Lutheran forefathers were as confessed in the BoC, that liturgical, so-called "catholic" worship forms best confess Christ.
That is precisely where Lutherans must not show affinity with Rome or Geneva, Pasadena or Willow Creek.
Perfect Pr. Greg. This is what I am getting at too, it cuts both ways.
LPC
Lito, Lutherans are now so lost that they no longer know the meaning of the historic worship service.
When I joined an Augusutana Synod congregation, all Lutheran congregations used the traditional liturgical service. The only difference came from the musical settings. The Syn Conference had The Lutheran Hymnal and the ALC/LCA had the Service Book and Hymnal.
No one debated having Bapti-Pentecostal entertainment services, with cousin Brunhilda singing "You Light Up My Life." So-called blended services were not on the radar screen. Clergy dressed like overfed beach bums - not even imagined.
Of course, now there are also the LCMS/ELCA pastors sinuflecting to Rome, each old/new innovation leading the flock closer to embracing Purgatory, the infallible pope, salvation by works, and Mother Mary.
So what's the solution to finding the "middle way"?:
"...use the traditional liturgical service."
And I would add:
"...the usual public ceremonies, the series of lessons, of prayers, vestments, and other like things." - Apology, Article XXIV.
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