Luther Rocks: Both Sides Now:
TUESDAY, OCTOBER 11, 2011
Both Sides Now
Both sides of the discussion succinctly put here on Intrepid Lutherans:
D. Jerome Klotz said...
Pastor Rydecki,
I am not sure I am understanding you, and I do not want to misrepresent your position. Are you asserting that the forgiveness is NOT to be pronounced upon the world? Has this world of sinners not truly been reconciled to the Father by the blood and cross of His Son (I Cor. 5:19)?
To proclaim such forgiveness is not to confuse objective with subjective justification/reconciliation. To proclaim such forgiveness is to deliver the very message of the Gospel, namely, that Christ has died FOR YOU, has risen FOR YOU, and has reconciled YOU to the Father. Repent, be baptized, and believe: YOU ARE FORGIVEN!
If we, as I understand you to be arguing, are to water down this objective reality of universal objective justification, then what is it that the sinner grasps hold of and clings to in faith? Does the sinner not receive the forgiveness that has already been won for him in Christ? To speak of justification in any other way implies that our faith is in some way contributive to our forgiveness, i.e., either that our sins were not truly paid for until we believed, or that we could not possibly have known that ours sins were forgiven until we believed. The fact is, however, that we can know that our sins are objectively forgiven prior to our subjective act of faith--which is an act worked in us passive sinners by the working of the Holy Spirit through Word and Sacrament.
In sum, without the objective actuality of forgiveness existing apart from faith, we are left with a faith that exists apart from objective forgiveness, i.e., a faith that clings to itself, or imagines that faith somehow actualizes the potential of forgiveness.
Such preaching robs the sinner of assurance and the radical nature of the grace of the Gospel, being freely (perhaps too freely we think) pronounced upon a world of sinners.
Yet, this forgiveness won in Christ is not beneficial to me the sinner until I have received it, through the Word preached, and through the Sacraments administered. Apart from faith in the actual forgiveness won for me in the crucified and risen Christ, I am cut off from Christ and His saving benefits and am condemned to eternal hell and judgment.
I agree with you that we need to safeguard the doctrine of objective justification from abuse (e.g., to equate it with subjective justification). But to turn objective justification into something potential rather than actual--which is what I am understanding you to be saying--is to destroy the Gospel altogether.
Please correct me if I have misunderstood you, Pastor.
In Christ,
Jerome
October 9, 2011 11:56 AM
Rev. Paul A. Rydecki said...
Jerome,
I appreciate the opportunity to explain. I'll try to answer your questions as best I can.
Are you asserting that the forgiveness is NOT to be pronounced upon the world? Has this world of sinners not truly been reconciled to the Father by the blood and cross of His Son (I Cor. 5:19)?
I am asserting that the message of Christ is to be pronounced to the world: "Repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name, etc." (Luke 24). I am asserting that it is not a proper presentation of the Gospel to preach to a group of unbelievers, "You are already forgiven! You are already reconciled!" This was not the message of Peter on Pentecost, nor the message of Paul in Philippi, nor the message of Paul at Athens, or anywhere else as recorded in Scripture.
Peter's preaching on Pentecost was not, "Repent, be baptized, believe, you are forgiven!" It was "Repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of sins." All I'm saying is, the two are not the same, and we should stick with the apostolic Gospel proclamation.
Both Peter and Paul preached Christ. They didn't preach the pre-forgiveness of their audience, but rather the substitionary sacrifice of Christ, the satisfaction of God's wrath against the world in the objective atonement of Christ, the finished redemption of Christ, the reconciliation of the world to God in Christ, and the righteousness of Christ as the only righteousness that avails before God, revealed in the Gospel for men to receive by faith, by which a man is justified.
Is the forgiveness that Christ has acquired for all an objective reality? Yes it is! It exists objectively in Christ, and is earnestly offered by God to all in the promise of the Gospel.
what is it that the sinner grasps hold of and clings to in faith?
The answer is Christ - Christ as the God-Man, Christ as the Righteousness that avails before God and has made satisfaction for the world's sins, Christ, in whom the Father wants all men to take shelter from his righteous wrath. That is the object of faith. The object of faith is not MY forgiveness, or MY justification, but the forgiveness/justification that Christ has obtained FOR ME and that is freely offered TO ME in the promise of the Gospel. The righteousness of Christ is imputed to faith, not to the world apart from faith. Those who seek shelter in the redemption of Christ have a "righteous" status before God. Those who fail to seek shelter in the redemption of Christ have a status of "wicked" before God.
This is how the Scriptures and the Confessions teach us to speak. I don't think that terms like "universal objective justification" follow the pattern of sound words to which we are to adhere.
But the problem also lies in the fact that there are about a half-dozen different understandings of "objective justification." Here's a definition I read recently: "Objective justification means that in the death of Jesus the sins of the whole world were charged to His account in order that His righteousness might be credited to the world." I agree with the concept expressed in this way. It agrees with Paul's presentation of justification in Romans perfectly. But I think that many people would change this definition to read, "...and that His righteousness has been credited to the world." That I don't find in Scripture.
Sorry if I haven't covered everything you asked about. Happy to discuss some more.
October 9, 2011 1:47 PM
D. Jerome Klotz said...
Pastor Rydecki,
I am not sure I am understanding you, and I do not want to misrepresent your position. Are you asserting that the forgiveness is NOT to be pronounced upon the world? Has this world of sinners not truly been reconciled to the Father by the blood and cross of His Son (I Cor. 5:19)?
To proclaim such forgiveness is not to confuse objective with subjective justification/reconciliation. To proclaim such forgiveness is to deliver the very message of the Gospel, namely, that Christ has died FOR YOU, has risen FOR YOU, and has reconciled YOU to the Father. Repent, be baptized, and believe: YOU ARE FORGIVEN!
If we, as I understand you to be arguing, are to water down this objective reality of universal objective justification, then what is it that the sinner grasps hold of and clings to in faith? Does the sinner not receive the forgiveness that has already been won for him in Christ? To speak of justification in any other way implies that our faith is in some way contributive to our forgiveness, i.e., either that our sins were not truly paid for until we believed, or that we could not possibly have known that ours sins were forgiven until we believed. The fact is, however, that we can know that our sins are objectively forgiven prior to our subjective act of faith--which is an act worked in us passive sinners by the working of the Holy Spirit through Word and Sacrament.
In sum, without the objective actuality of forgiveness existing apart from faith, we are left with a faith that exists apart from objective forgiveness, i.e., a faith that clings to itself, or imagines that faith somehow actualizes the potential of forgiveness.
Such preaching robs the sinner of assurance and the radical nature of the grace of the Gospel, being freely (perhaps too freely we think) pronounced upon a world of sinners.
Yet, this forgiveness won in Christ is not beneficial to me the sinner until I have received it, through the Word preached, and through the Sacraments administered. Apart from faith in the actual forgiveness won for me in the crucified and risen Christ, I am cut off from Christ and His saving benefits and am condemned to eternal hell and judgment.
I agree with you that we need to safeguard the doctrine of objective justification from abuse (e.g., to equate it with subjective justification). But to turn objective justification into something potential rather than actual--which is what I am understanding you to be saying--is to destroy the Gospel altogether.
Please correct me if I have misunderstood you, Pastor.
Jerome
October 9, 2011 11:56 AM
Rev. Paul A. Rydecki said...
Jerome,
I appreciate the opportunity to explain. I'll try to answer your questions as best I can.
Are you asserting that the forgiveness is NOT to be pronounced upon the world? Has this world of sinners not truly been reconciled to the Father by the blood and cross of His Son (I Cor. 5:19)?
I am asserting that the message of Christ is to be pronounced to the world: "Repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name, etc." (Luke 24). I am asserting that it is not a proper presentation of the Gospel to preach to a group of unbelievers, "You are already forgiven! You are already reconciled!" This was not the message of Peter on Pentecost, nor the message of Paul in Philippi, nor the message of Paul at Athens, or anywhere else as recorded in Scripture.
Peter's preaching on Pentecost was not, "Repent, be baptized, believe, you are forgiven!" It was "Repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of sins." All I'm saying is, the two are not the same, and we should stick with the apostolic Gospel proclamation.
Both Peter and Paul preached Christ. They didn't preach the pre-forgiveness of their audience, but rather the substitionary sacrifice of Christ, the satisfaction of God's wrath against the world in the objective atonement of Christ, the finished redemption of Christ, the reconciliation of the world to God in Christ, and the righteousness of Christ as the only righteousness that avails before God, revealed in the Gospel for men to receive by faith, by which a man is justified.
Is the forgiveness that Christ has acquired for all an objective reality? Yes it is! It exists objectively in Christ, and is earnestly offered by God to all in the promise of the Gospel.
what is it that the sinner grasps hold of and clings to in faith?
The answer is Christ - Christ as the God-Man, Christ as the Righteousness that avails before God and has made satisfaction for the world's sins, Christ, in whom the Father wants all men to take shelter from his righteous wrath. That is the object of faith. The object of faith is not MY forgiveness, or MY justification, but the forgiveness/justification that Christ has obtained FOR ME and that is freely offered TO ME in the promise of the Gospel. The righteousness of Christ is imputed to faith, not to the world apart from faith. Those who seek shelter in the redemption of Christ have a "righteous" status before God. Those who fail to seek shelter in the redemption of Christ have a status of "wicked" before God.
This is how the Scriptures and the Confessions teach us to speak. I don't think that terms like "universal objective justification" follow the pattern of sound words to which we are to adhere.
But the problem also lies in the fact that there are about a half-dozen different understandings of "objective justification." Here's a definition I read recently: "Objective justification means that in the death of Jesus the sins of the whole world were charged to His account in order that His righteousness might be credited to the world." I agree with the concept expressed in this way. It agrees with Paul's presentation of justification in Romans perfectly. But I think that many people would change this definition to read, "...and that His righteousness has been credited to the world." That I don't find in Scripture.
Sorry if I haven't covered everything you asked about. Happy to discuss some more.
October 9, 2011 1:47 PM
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