Quiet WELsian said...
"I didn't misinterpret WELS position on UOJ. I refuted it. Nowhere does it say in the Bible that before we do anything we are forgiven. Which includes being born (as Holy Word and WELS teaches officially) or hearing the Word of God."
Joe- The WELS or any other orthodox Lutheran organizations that accepts UOJ doesn't teach that God communicates forgiveness to people before they believe. This where you're getting everything messed up. It's probably moot to go through this again, considering you've made yourself invincibly ignorant on the subject. But here we go....
There's a difference between saying that God says a thing and that thing it is received. [GJ - The previous sentence makes no sense at all.] If Jesus tells the Church to go out and proclaim the gospel to every living creature, it presupposes that God has pronounced his universal word of grace. If he didn't pronounced (sic) the word of absolution over the whole world, then why would the Church proclaim the gospel universally ("I absolve you in the name of Jesus") in it's (sic) public preaching? This word is received by faith. So, saying that God has pronounced his word of justification over the whole world is qualified by the fact that 1.) it is mediated through word and sacrament. 2.) that that forgiveness is only communicated to believers through faith. 3.) It hardens and condemns those who reject it.
This is all really simple. I chalk up your rejection of all this to two factors:
1.) Human being (sic) like simple explanatory models. You think things stink in the WELS. The church-growth clap-trap sucks. A lot the pastors and DPs don't do their jobs, etc. Ok. So Jackson comes to you and gives you a simple explanatory model "It's all the fault of UOJ!!" And you think "wow, that's it." Basically I would suggest this is the basis of most of Jackson's appeal. He plays on legitimate concerns, while giving a simple explanatory model. Why things suck in the WELS is more complex and actually probably is more of a function of sinful human nature being sinful human nature. It has very little to do with any make-believe problems with the doctrine of justification.
2.) You're assuming that the word "justification" is being used in the same way in different contexts. So, you assume that justification means to communicate forgiveness and salvation when used in relationship to universal justification. That would be universalism. Do you seriously know anyone in the WELS who literally believes everyone is going to heaven? Come on. This is not the case. Rather, it simply means a not guilty verdict pronounced by God. When we talk about subjective justification though the term is being used with regard to the communication of forgiveness. Theological terms are elastic in many ways and must be understood contextually.
[GJ - Through the Looking Glass - "When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less."
"The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things."
"The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master - - that's all."]
"You should really take your masks off. You make WELS look even more cultish even though I try to give you the benefit of the doubt."
I'll take off my mask, when all of the other Jackson cultists do.
***
GJ - The fake blog is anonymous, and every single writer (perhaps the only one) is anonymous. But this one attaches conditions to revealing his name while attacking Joe Krohn by name.
Mary Lou College and The Sausage Factory tell students not to read Ichabod. If a WELS member posts anything, the WELSian authorities quickly react against that person, to silence him. But they never show the same amount of spine about the gay video, Emergent Church, plagiarizing Groeschel and many cancer nodes.
The anonymous coward is obviously seething with hatred that one of their own Church and Changers has seen the light. I do not think that talking down to Joe is a good way to draw him back into the fold.
Clearly the Shrinkers are boiling over with rage that their UOJ has been assaulted from many quarters. I hasten to remind readers that the key insights (Knapp and Huber) came from WELS laymen, not from me.
The anonymous coward is full of sorrow because the Word of God is efficacious. He should address his rage to the Holy Spirit. All I can do is point people to the sources and clarify some historical issues.
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| Paul Wendland is right. We need the New NIV. |
