Thursday, December 8, 2011

4 area Presbyterian churches leave national denomination

I documented the mainline gay agenda efforts in 1987,
24 years ago: Out of the Depths of ELCA.


4 area Presbyterian churches leave national denomination:



By Brandon Smith-Hebson, Staff Writer
7:39 PM Thursday, December 8, 2011

SOUTH CHARLESTON — Four of 60 Presbyterian churches in the Miami Valley recently left their national denomination.

Their ministers pointed to changes in the denomination’s constitution that paved the way for openly gay people to become ministers or church leaders, as well as changes to the way the church is governed that could provide for a more top-down leadership in the future.

Churches sometimes organize a significant part of the charitable work done in their area, and can influence and reflect the beliefs of a community.

But these recent changes weren’t the entire reason for leaving, ministers said — rather, the national denomination, Presbyterian Church (USA), had been on a decades-long drift to a less-specific, more inclusive theology, they said.

“We were concerned,” said Peter Larson, head pastor at Lebanon Presbyterian Church, “that some might see this move as creating a church that’s anti-gay people, or homophobic.” Larson’s church voted to leave the denomination. “That’s just not true. Every person is welcome here. This is not a condemning place.”

But some pastors from churches that remain have their doubts.

“The message it sends is, ‘we love you as long as you aren’t practicing who you are, as long as you aren’t yourself,” said Dwight McCormick, pastor of Northminster Presbyterian Church in Springfield.

McCormick said that gay people “have had a lot of violence done to them over the years,” spiritually as well as physically, and that the denomination wants to distance itself from that.

Shortly after the constitution was altered, the first openly gay minister was ordained in the PCUSA, in Madison, Wis.

Secessions over similar subjects rocked Lutheran churches in the area earlier this year.

In addition to Larson’s church, the local congregations that voted to leave include First Presbyterian in South Charleston, Kirkmont Presbyterian in Beavercreek, and Greenville Presbyterian in Greenville, which is in Darke County.

Church members were invited to afternoon meetings for a vote — two churches on Oct. 23 and two on Oct. 30. All were said to have good turnout for church business meetings, between one-third and two-thirds of voting membership.

And at each church, more than 90 percent of votes supported measures to split from the denomination.

Three of the four churches also voted to join the Evangelical Presbyterian Church, another, smaller Presbyterian denomination with more conservative theology.

“There was very little hostility” in the splits, said Dennis Piermont, the top executive at the Presbytery of the Miami Valley, a local grouping of about 60 churches in the denomination.

PCUSA isn’t seeking to take individual church buildings or property, according to Piermont. In other states, departing churches have had their buildings confiscated by the denomination, or they’ve had to buy back their own building.

Piermont considers it an “enormous concern” to maintain theological diversity in the church, something that took a hit when these churches left.

“Let’s recognize we still have some of that here, and to value that,” he said. “A great many people remain who are theologically conservative. It’s now easy for them to feel marginalized, and that is a great concern for me.”

But the churches that left sometimes view theological diversity as a farce, complaining that PCUSA had become a “big tent” denomination — and that it was getting bigger.

“In scripture we see diversity based on races and male and female, but there’s no such diversity in terms of doctrine and theology. It’s a pretty tight document,” said Bill Riesenweaver, pastor of First Presbyterian Church in South Charleston. Riesenweaver’s church voted unanimously to leave the PCUSA.
“Some people believe you can be a good Buddhist, Muslim — different strokes for different folks,” said Larson. “It’s a fundamental disagreement, ‘who is Jesus?’ ”

The denomination believes it’s following tradition in its more inclusive approach.

“Theological diversity has been a mark of our church from the beginning. There were debates in the early 1700s,” said Gradye Parsons, a PCUSA official whose responsibility includes theological discussions. “We’ve never really been what’s called a subscriptionist church, where you have to subscribe to very specific doctrines.”

Like most other large church denominations, Presbyterian Church (USA) has had a declining membership in the United States since the mid-1960s, according to church historians.

At its height in 1965, it counted around 4.2 million members, while last year it had just over 2 million members. It is the largest of the Presbyterian denominations.

But as reported in The Layman, a conservative-leaning source of Presbyterian church news, PCUSA experienced a large drop in membership in 2010 — likely as a result of the changes to the constitution.
Because presbyteries don’t report their membership loss or gain until the end of each year, officials said, the full effect of the changes won’t be known until early 2012.
Contact this reporter at (937) 328-0353.


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VirtueOnline - News - Exclusives - South Carolina Bishop Asked to Explain "Quitclaim" Property Action

VirtueOnline - News - Exclusives - South Carolina Bishop Asked to Explain "Quitclaim" Property Action:
GJ - Bigger Than the Donation of Constantine - And Historically True

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GJ - My understanding is - the traditional bishop has made sure the parishes own their own property. Archbishop Jefferts Schori cannot sue on behalf of The Episcopal Church. Hahahaha.

The New NIV - An Upcoming Battle or Another Uncontested Contest?


solafide (http://solafide.myopenid.com/) has left a new comment on your post "Intrepid Lutherans: ELS doctrine committee recomme...":

I agree that it is a little fuzzy, but at least they had the guts to initially recommend against it. Props to the ESV doctrine committee on this one. Perhaps they can teach their WELS brothers something? Ahh, who am I kidding...




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GJ - I see a few positive signs of resistance to the New NIV in WELS. Apparently some groups have already formed to discuss and work against the NNIV. Beware, each group has synod-minders in it, to report back to Wendland and Schroeder. Neither one will tolerate any dissent from The Plan. Gay videos are fine with them, but not independent thinking.

I read about district votes. That will be more managed than one of Stalin's show trials. The outcome will be determined before anyone meets, with the right floor committees and resolutions. This can easily be by-passed by a significant group with significant spine.



If there is no real objection to this monstrous joke of a translation, the few objectors will be picked off, one by one, using various excuses to undermine the man's ministry. Everyone knows that in advance. Tyndale was burned at the stake for his translation. Most ministers are afraid of missing lunch. The laity who care have drifted away. In many cases the all-loving and grace-filled Wisconsin Synod has extended the Left Foot of Fellowship to them.

WELS - Wendland and the NNIV are your punishments for buying the Classic NIV, almost as rotten, for the last 25 years.

David R. Barnhart: Lutheran leader confronts state's Catholic bishops over gay marriage



David R. Barnhart: Lutheran leader confronts state's Catholic bishops over gay marriage:



To My Brothers -- The Catholic Bishops of Minnesota:

In 1976 I was elected a Lutheran bishop in Minnesota -- one of seven such Lutheran leaders in the state. Over the next years one of the highlights of my time in office was the annual noon-to-noon retreat with our eight Catholic counterparts in the state.

The bond that developed between us was deep and respectful. We shared our differences; we celebrated our likenesses. My friendship with Archbishop John Roach and Bishop Raymond Lucker, in particular, is a blessing I will treasure as long as I live.

May I share a word with all of you who now lead the Roman Catholic community of faith in Minnesota?

First, I would go to the wall to defend your right to work for the adoption of the so-called marriage protection amendment. Having said that, I must tell you that I believe you are making a significant mistake.

Over my 35 years as an active and retired bishop I have come to know hundreds of gay and lesbian persons. I have yet to meet even one who is opposed to the marriage of one man and one woman. After all, they are the daughters and sons of such unions.

What they cannot understand is why church leaders would oppose their fundamental desire and right to be in partnership with someone they love and respect who happens to be of the same gender and sexual orientation. They don't understand why they should not enjoy all the rights and privileges their straight counterparts take for granted.

More than a half century ago Father Francis Gilligan spoke out for equality for African American citizens of Minnesota. Though many argued on the basis of the Bible that these neighbors were inferior to others, Gilligan fought tirelessly for justice for these brothers and sisters.

In our generation homosexual persons are subject to the same discrimination. Their detractors often use the Bible and tradition as weapons of choice.

Is it not time for religious leaders, walking in the footsteps of Father Gilligan, to do the same for another minority, neighbors who are as responsible as our African American sisters and brothers?

I also suggest that you ask yourselves an important question: If the amendment is passed, will it make one particle of difference in our common culture in Minnesota? I don't think so.

Responsible lesbian and gay persons will continue to seek companionship with those they love. This law will only work to drive many of them deeper into closets of anonymity.

Instead, why not welcome them into our communities of faith where they can work side by side with us as equal partners?

Let me put out a challenge to each of you brothers. Invite 15 gay and lesbian persons from your respective areas, one at a time, to spend two hours with you.

Thirty hours are a pittance compared to the time you are investing to promote adoption of the marriage amendment. Use the time, not for confession, but to listen to them describe what it is like to live in our culture in Minnesota.

Hear as they tell you what it means be a child of God and a faithful member of your church, persons who happen to be gay or lesbian through no choice of their own. I can promise you, based on my experience, that your heart will be deeply moved by what you hear.

When you have finished your time with these sisters and brothers in Christ, spend a quiet hour reflecting on a single question: "As I understand the heart of my Savior Jesus, how would he treat these sons and daughters of my church?"

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Herbert W. Chilstrom is former presiding bishop, Evangelical Lutheran Church in America.



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GJ - I had lunch with Chilstrom (Minnesota Bishop) and some other LCA pastors, at a conference for men in the ministry a certain number of years. He was a pleasant person, face to face, but he was ice cold as a  leader. When his policies caused firings of staff, he managed to be out of town when his co-workers were given security exits - "Don't go back to your office. We will send your personal effects to you. The guard will show you the door."

Chilstrom was definitely an architect of the change from Don't Ask Don't Tell homosexual ordination to Please Ask Please Tell. In the name of UOJ he pronounced everyone except the traditionalists "forgiven, absolved, saved," not that it mattered. Chilstrom taught against the Virgin Birth of Jesus - no one noticed.

When Paul Calvin Kelm ended his Church Growth conference (disguised as evangelism) at Mequon, he had this dramatic statement at the climax of his scripted speech.

"Given what we teach about the Wisconsin Synod, can you think of anyone in the world who would not join if he found out?"

A pause followed.

I said, "Herb Chilstrom?"

The place just rocked with laughter. Even Kelm had to laugh. In fact, the laughter went on so long that he could not say much more, since the laughing kept starting over.

One reader, known only as 29A, wants everyone to remember that the radicals of ELCA were trained in WELS and the LCMS. Their most honored leader, Richard Jungkuntz, was a professor at Northwestern College and a UOJ fanatic.

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Jimmy James has left a new comment on your post "David R. Barnhart: Lutheran leader confronts state...":

This reminded me of an editorial an African-American contributed in yesterday's Detroit Free Press. She was complaining about the "lack of diversity" on today's television. She started in with the way it use to be; The Cosby Show, The George Lopez Show, Family Matters, etc.

I quickly called her Feedback Line and pointed out that today's television has all kinds of diversity! In fact, diversity that other African-American columnists in your paper (i.e. Leonard Pitts) have promoted AND endorsed. They have also compared it with the civil rights movement of Martin Luther King! GAY RIGHTS!

I explained that every cotton pickin' night on the TV, I can find at least a dozen current or previously run television programs that either have a gay plot or feature a gay character(s).

Last week, Tim Allen's new TV show had a plot about a new lesbian couple that moved into their neighborhood. I changed the channel and found an old episode of "That 70's Show" featuring the same used plot! Only this time, it was two gay men who moved into the neighborhood! (And the two actors who were playing the gay men were two of the three "Brady Bunch" brothers!)

Every time I look around, it's in my face....

LCMS Seminaries - Where the Money Is.
Ultra High Tuition and Salaries











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From Bruce Chuch, Ichabod Research Department:

Summary: The LCMS seminaries have the highest overhead per student of all the accredited Lutheran seminaries in America, in part due to  an inadequate endowment fund. However, much of the overhead is a result of choices the LCMS seminaries and synod have made. First and foremost is the facilities overcapacity. One seminary on one campus would more than suffice for the needs of the LCMS (allowing for the expansion of classroom buildings and dormitories, of course). Secondly, there is the over-payment of professors at Concordia St. Louis, which campus has the highest tuition rates, by the way. Third, the federal government deems the LCMS seminaries to be in great financial shape, better off than most of the ELCA seminaries, and they of course charge much lower tuition. In other words, the LCMS seminaries could afford to lower their tuition quite a bit without losing their OK credit rating with the government, and without going broke.

Discussion: In the spreadsheet and charts, I have called overhead any cost not associated with professor salaries. However, if one wished, one could add to overhead the amount that he or she estimates the Concordia Seminary St. Louis professors are overpaid. When professor salaries are subtracted from tuition, a LCMS seminary student is paying $21,500 for overhead per year, twice as much as all the ELCA seminary students, except at one seminary. The fiscally troubled Philadelphia ELCA seminary still has $5,000 less overhead per student than the LCMS seminaries. Philadelphia also has the highest tuition and fees of any ELCA seminary, but its yearly tuition still trails $5,000 behind the LCMS seminaries.

The professor salary ($89,483) at Concordia Seminary, St. Louis, is $22,923 more than the average ($66,560) holding at the nine other Lutheran seminaries listed. Its associate professor salary ($71,201) is $14,287 more than the average ($56,914) at the other  seminaries. The assistant professor salary ($59,830) is $5,410 more than the average ($54,420) at the other seminaries. If the amount of this over-payment of professors were factored into the overhead cost, the overhead cost per student at the LCMS seminaries would be even greater.

Links of Interest:

With church membership dwindling and more families struggling to afford the cost of college, many private religiously-affiliated colleges and universities are slashing tuition and offering incentives to attract new students -- and to stay afloat.

Concordia Seminary FAQ on its high tuition--It's all your fault!

Dept of Ed Rates Private Seminaries and Colleges for Fiscal Soundness:

    or download 2009-10 report here: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/34974726/0910CompositeScores.xls





ELCA Seminary Fiscal News:





This report's spreadsheet and charts can be found here:

Seminary Tuition Scandal: