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| F. Bivens |
AC V has left a new comment on your post "Bivens, McCain, and Kilcrease Have No Concept of t...":
More Bivens here:
"Regarding the proclamation of explicit gospel, no finer example of this can perhaps be found than in the way we announce absolution in our worship assemblies. To illustrate this point, a question and answer drawn from the Q & A service on the WELS Web site is here reproduced:
Q: Hello, A Baptist friend of mine is having trouble with pastors forgiving a congregation's sins. Could you please explain to me what gives pastors or others the right to forgive sins. I see James 5:16 and John 20:23. Still kind of confused. Thank you.
A: The Bible verses you mention are appropriate. It may also be said that all passages that invite and urge us to preach the gospel are also rightly mentioned. To preach the gospel is to proclaim the forgiveness of sins for the sake of Christ and his atoning work. No one will really understand what the Lutheran church teaches about "absolution" (declaring forgiveness of sins) unless he clearly understands the truth of objective or universal justification. That is at the very heart of what we believe and teach. Long ago God has already forgiven every human being his or her sins. Christ's life
and death as our substitute is finished. Nothing more needs to be done by the sinner himself. A Christian can go to any person on earth and rightly say to him, "Your sins are forgiven." To put it another way: The forgiveness of sins is not a potential fact that becomes a reality only when sinners
do something to qualify for it, or even when the gospel is proclaimed and personally received through faith. It has long been a reality to be proclaimed to sinners without conditions. When Jesus Christ rose from the dead - 2000 years ago, he was raised because of our justification - because we had already been justified (Romans 4:25). 2 Corinthians 5:19-21 and Romans 3:22-23 stress the same truth. This is why we may speak to one another to say "Your sins are forgiven" or "In the name of God, I forgive your sins." This is why a pastor, acting on behalf of all the Christians in the assembly, says the same thing.
This is not arrogance or trying to "play God." It is serving as God's ambassadors and messengers, which is what we are. Perhaps your Baptist friend is thinking, "This should not be done in a large group, since there may be people who are really not repentant or who are hypocrites in that church. You cannot tell them they are forgiven, can you?"
We answer in this way: "Yes, we can and must say this, for God has invited and commanded us to do so. Jesus died and took away their sins, reconciling them to him - whether they believe it or not." Lest we be misunderstood, we also say that if we know someone to be impenitent or a hypocrite, we will first speak to that person about sin, God's wrath, and eternal damnation in hell to expose his sinfulness and allow the Holy Spirit to convict him. That is also why the absolution in our public assemblies is always preceded by a general confession of sins and expression of repentance. But the fact remains - From God's standpoint Christ died for them and took away their guilt. We tell people this whether they are believers or unbelievers. And we hope and pray that this time they will believe us so that they too will know it is true and rejoice with us in the amazing grace of God" (F. Bivens, Archived in "Forgiveness and Repentance Section," Set 11).
http://wlsessays.net/files/BivensMessage.pdf
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| Mequon is breeding the next generation of UOJ Stormtroopers. |
GJ - UOJ simply means the entire world is absolved. Everything after that is a matter of indifference, an adiaphoron.
Nevertheless, the UOJ Stormtroopers engage in a constant Ministry of Condemnation. When the LaughQuesters are not denouncing everyone else, they are busy denouncing each other, biting and devouring with unwholesome glee.
The UOJ-Fuller-Jeske coalition will not rest until they remove every single layman or pastor who dares to raise an eyebrow about their fantasies. It is not just a WELS fetish. UOJ is LCMS, ELS, and ELCA, too.
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RE: GJ - "UOJ simply means the entire world is absolved. Everything after that is a matter of indifference, an adiaphoron."
Here's "Bivens on UOJ: Omitting the Means of Grace." At the first WELS National Conference on Worship, Music and the Arts in 1996 Bivens presented an essay entitled "The Primary Doctrine in Its Primary Setting: Objective Justification and Lutheran Worship"
[Carthage College, Kenosha, Wisconsin, July 23, 1996]. Not a whiff about the sacraments in this foundational essay. Instead UOJ's influence on worship principles leads to these conclusions:
"Aside from 'substance,' however, may we or should we change our worship style? If so, to what degree? The doctrine of justification doesn’t address this question directly other than pointing us to the freedom
we possess in Christ and calling us to exercise that freedom in love and for the edification of souls. (AC V - JBFA answers the question! Christ achieved forgiveness on the cross and he distributes it through the means of grace! No need for the means of grace if the purpose of the divine service is only to remind people of forgiveness achieved and distributed 2,000 years ago on the cross!) What must be stressed is that, in matters of genuine adiaphora, we are to cultivate truly evangelical and truly ecumenical perspectives. There is no such thing as 'the Lutheran liturgy.' Purely external forms are legitimately influenced by histories of nations, peoples, cultures and languages. A key is to seek and find forms that are appropriate for communicating the truth of the gospel in its fullness, in a particular setting. Some words, tunes and actions are ill suited in certain situations, at best give mixed signals, and will disrupt serious efforts at educating and edifying.
And what do we possess that can bring about such a change in people? The gospel, the truth of justification. So what the unconverted likes least, he needs most. What doesn’t attract him at all is what he desperately needs to be attracted to. Our task, as always, is to seek some point of contact where we can present the gospel to people who aren’t explicitly interested in it. Our gracious God has justified every individual person. God’s will and our desire is that each person be brought to understand and embrace this truth. So the primary doctrine does point us to care for and strive to deal with people individually."
So, self-centered worship forms and gimmicks are fair game so long as they educate people of Christ's forgiveness imputed to all people 2,000 years ago whether they believe it or not. Your job is to convince them of that truth. Now get cracking!
http://www.wlsessays.net/files/BivensPrimary.pdf
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LutherRocks has left a new comment on your post "Bivens on UOJ. Confusing the Atonement and Justifi...":
I don't think these guys know what objective and subjective mean. They call it OJ but then speak the whole time in subjective terms. Compare this quote with a definition from Dictionary.com.
"A Christian can go to any person on earth and rightly say to him, "Your sins are forgiven." "
"But the fact remains - From God's standpoint Christ died for them and took away their guilt. We tell people this whether they are believers or unbelievers."
"sub·jec·tive   [suhb-jek-tiv] Show IPA
adjective
1.
existing in the mind; belonging to the thinking subject rather than to the object of thought ( opposed to objective).
2.
pertaining to or characteristic of an individual; personal; individual: a subjective evaluation.
3.
placing excessive emphasis on one's own moods, attitudes, opinions, etc.; unduly egocentric.
4.
Philosophy . relating to or of the nature of an object as it is known in the mind as distinct from a thing in itself.
5.
relating to properties or specific conditions of the mind as distinguished from general or universal experience."
