Sunday, April 28, 2013

Facebook Discussion about Koine Crowding Chancel Easter Sunday

St. Peter WELS, Freedom, Wisconsin.
Main sanctuary, Easter Sunday.
Tim Glende.
"I pulled my coat tight,
against the calling crowd."
https://www.facebook.com/LivinTheHylife/posts/10201221419400416?comment_id=76755537&offset=0&total_comments=57&notif_t=share_reply



Daniel Baker shared Todd Wilken's photo.
15 hours ago · 
  • Come to the WELS!
    Photo
    2Like ·  · Unfollow Post · 

    • Steve Spencer If what is seen completely contradicts what is preached, that's a very mixed message. The Word is truly all-powerful, but why burden it with such tripe? Foolish!
      14 hours ago · Like · 6
    • Austin Becker The focus should be on Christ. If you must have a worship band, either have them pre-record and use a CD during worship, or else have them play *in the back*. They should not be front and centre like this.
      14 hours ago · Like · 1

    • Mike Westendorf I know the guys from Koine and they are outstanding Lutheran Christians. They have worked hard and well to bring the old language of hymns to light to a culture that doesn't understand the organ. I am often amazed at the astounding lack of grace that often comes from WELS Christians on this matter. Take a picture, out of context and then smear the people involved whom you do not know. These people bleed for the church and desire for everyone to know the truth of God's word more deeply and yet Christians, bible believing, conservative Lutheran Christians will be so quick to engage in this kind of public commentary against fellow brothers. I pray that we can show the world grace and mercy better than we do our own people.
      14 hours ago · Edited · Like · 13
    • Alan G. Sides Only symbols anyway.
      14 hours ago · Like · 2
    • Steve Spencer Doesn't "understand" the organ? Huh, what?! Work smart phones, and Windows 8, but can't "understand" the organ?!?!? That's really lame. Kids today are way smarter than that! Crazy!
      14 hours ago · Edited · Like · 6
    • Melissa Brander Well said Mike. It is one thing to recognize that this is not a way you want to worship. Which is fine, everyone is allowed freedom to worship in their own styles. It's another thing to tell other people they are wrong for worshipping this way, when God's word is still being preached and is still at the heart and center. I don't think God cares how we worship as long as we are worshipping Him and Him alone.
      14 hours ago · Like · 5
    • Melissa Brander Nick Brander because you should see this.

    • Amalia Campbell I was at this "service" - all singing and scripture readings, plus an offering and benediction at the end. There was a very short maybe 5 min sermon, but it completely lacked any kind of confession and absolution. If it had been called a concert then it would have been a wonderful way to worship, but as something that took the place of all three services at this church and lacked a confession and the reassurance of forgiveness, I believe this is unacceptable. And the pastor was the man in red, which means that while he was not in the pulpit, he was still up there leading his congregation.
      13 hours ago · Edited · Unlike · 6
    • Dan A Dome Everyone's reactions to this is just sad. I liked what you said, Mike. People should be quick to listen and slow to speak, especially about things which they know not. Look at the plank in your own eye before you take the speck out of your brother's eye. We need to not judge people. We're all children of God.
      13 hours ago · Like · 6
    • Alfred Gawel Again, I just want to puke all over my shoes.
      13 hours ago · Like · 4
    • Mark C. Robinson Steve: I think he means that organ music doesn't 'reach' the modern culture. Personally I find it a benefit to step out of the modern and set aside Worship as a unique experience.

      I've been to 'Praise Band' worship - far too much of it. The problem       ...See More
      13 hours ago · Like · 2
    • Michael Tusa We go to church to join withe others to worship and adore God, not for our personal entertainment.
      13 hours ago · Like · 3
    • Daniel Baker A good time to revisit: http://ecclesiaaugustana.blogspot.com/2012/11/liturgy-is-anything-but-indiferent.html

      Ecclesia Augustana: Liturgy is Anything but Indifferent
      ecclesiaaugustana.blogspot.com
      "Haec fere summa est doctrinae apud nos, in qua cerni potest nihil inesse, quod ...See More
      13 hours ago · Edited · Like · 2
    • Jill Timm Actually, don't we go to receive Christ through Word & Sacrement?
      13 hours ago via mobile · Like · 4
    • Daniel Baker And for the record, the be-all end-all of Lutheran worship isn't praising and adoring God. It's about the forgiveness of sins and the Christian's making of eucharist, or thanksgiving, on account of the same.
      13 hours ago · Like · 1
    • Daniel Baker >>>>Actually, don't we go to receive Christ through Word & Sacrement?<<<<

      EXACTLY!
      13 hours ago · Like · 1
    • Nate Block This whole thread is completely inappropriate. There are many things being voiced in the comments of the original post and this one that are off-color considering who we are and what we are to do. The judgment, uninformed chastising and opinion of the emotion needs to stop. Share the message of Christ's love by any means necessary.
      13 hours ago · Like · 5
    • Melissa Brander Some churches do contemporary wrong. But at the same time, some churches do traditional wrong. The problem with churches, ultimately, is not a worship style, but a heart style. Some churches, of all kinds, have let their hearts lead them in the wrong d...See More
      13 hours ago · Like · 5
    • Jennifer Zander Did Jesus ever say what style we are to worship? I wish people were more open minded. This is hurtful to me.
      13 hours ago · Like · 4
    • Rebecca Quam I agree with Amalia's comment. Amalie was in ATTENDANCE of the "worship" service!
      12 hours ago · Like · 1
    • Daniel Baker "Actions speak louder than words," as they say. Jesus worshipped and preached in the traditional synagogue Service and observed the traditional Passover Rite, as did His Apostles and disciples - through long after His Ascension into Heaven. The Service of the Word is a continuation of the synagogue tradition, and the Service of the Sacrament is the fulfillment of the Passover.
      12 hours ago · Like · 1
    • Rodney Dietsche A good organ has many different stops and has a beat. Some has said, it is an orchestra a band in one instrument. Interesting that we including myself can get upset with all the stuff in the front of a church when it is guitars and drums and such. Yet we do not get upset when many organ pipes are displayed in the front. Or we have a choir stand in front to sing. one once said,
      11 hours ago · Like · 1
    • Daniel Baker I get upset when a choir stands in front to sing. Organ pipes can be stylish in the front but I honestly wouldn't prefer that either.
    • Miles Wurster “Christian musicians should let their singing and playing to the praise of the Father of all grace sound forth with joy from their organs, symphonias, virginals, regals and whatever other beloved instruments there are (recently invented and given by God), of which neither David nor Solomon, neither Persia, Greece, nor Rome, knew anything.”
      --Martin Luther (1483-1546)
      11 hours ago · Like · 4
    • Rodney Dietsche How many today are training to play an instrument to the glory of God or just to be able to play an instrument? I have hear many a pastor say we don't have an organist, nor a guitar player or piano player. Hmm why is that?
    • Daniel Baker Context? Citation? He can also be quoted as calling the ORGAN an "ensign of Baal." Hardly a rousing endorsement of contemporary forms, since it had been around for a couple centuries by that point.
    • Daniel Baker " I have hear many a pastor say we don't have an organist, nor a guitar player or piano player. Hmm why is that?" 

      Because they are under-appreciated and underpaid? I suspect we would have fewer pastors, too, if they were paid 15 dollars or nothing per Service.
      11 hours ago · Like · 2
    • Miles Wurster Couldn't tell you. But you cannot rush to condemn people/church/particular musical style just because you don't like it. Quality worship includes Biblical texts, orderly worship, focuses on God, not self, and includes congregational participation-- No...See More
      11 hours ago · Edited · Like · 3
    • Miles Wurster The Luther quote I posted, can be found in "Luther's Litergical Music" by Robin A. Leaver p. 91.
    • Daniel Baker When it comes to Lutheran worship, here's a list: "the usual public ceremonies are observed, the series of lessons, of prayers, vestments, and other like things” (Apology XXIV:1-2).
      11 hours ago · Like · 2
    • Nate Block Daniel, Luther wrote that as a recommendation and a guide, not a formal dictation.
    • John Dixon What this picture demonstrates is what Paul warned against in discerning the Lord's Body in the Communion and has become all to common. 
      This is the result of theology taking a back seat to self actualization.
    • Daniel Baker "Luther wrote that as a recommendation and a guide, not a formal dictation."

      Concerning "singing and playing" on all sorts of instruments? I would agree. Plus, I'd be curious to know if he was talking about in the context of the Divine Liturgy or elsewhere, since everything I've read indicates that he only supported instrumentation to assist congregational singing.
    • Rodney Dietsche Daniel you made me laugh out loud with your comment. "15 a service or free. A good laugh not a bad one. Then I thought, hey are we not suppose to do it to the glory of God? How much does Koine get paid? If a pastor does two service he gets his salary. If an organist does 2 service he or she gets paid for two. I have to stop commenting work to do and causing to much trouble.
      11 hours ago · Like · 1

    • Jeffery Clark Professor Wurster, having been to two of these "concert services" @ MLC, I can say that they didn't even adequately replace an evening chapel service, let alone a full service of the Word suitable for Sunday worship. Koine's music is a fine thing to be listened to on its own (in the car for example, I'm sure it is better than a lot of the trash on the radio) or even to supplement a regular worship service (even though this isn't my particular cup of tea), but to base an entire service around it and put these men (and others like them) front and center removes that particular aspect of what makes Lutheran worship special, the fact it is Christo-centric. 

      The context of the Luther statement (Ms. Leaver actually stole it almost verbatim from The pastoral Luther: essays on Martin Luther's practical theology edited by Timothy J. Wengert -- I didn't see any citations in her book, but perhaps that is the fault of Google): It is from a dedication he wrote in a hymnal. He was commenting on the fact that all instruments, the materials and the knowledge to make them, and the skill needed to play them are gifts from God and are just as good as the human voice. So yes these new instruments may be used in a worship service, but they must do so in a way so as not to remove the focus from Christ. 

      Unfortunately, the two "concert services" I attended did this very thing and turned it into an entertainment service of "me and my feelings."
      10 hours ago · Like · 3
    • Bob Winter So, according to most of you on here if you don't do the service according to your narrow-mined views then it really doesn't count. Well, newsflash the way your services are conducted doesn't fit the norm for others. You sound like a bunch of pharisees. Get over it, there is more than ONE religion and God is not nearly so narrow-minded as you seem to believe.
    • Cassie Hunt I do not and have never belonged to WELS. But, I think this conversation contains alot of confusion. When conversations like these take place many times it is what is being done is labeled bad. I would argue it is not so much what is being done is "bad...See More
    • Jeffery Clark Bob Winter, to respond to your statement, I will give you a quote from Luther:
    • Jeffery Clark Therefore, I pray all of you, my dear sirs, let each one surrender his own opinions and get together in a friendly way and come to a common decision about these external matters, so that there will be one uniform practice throughout your district inste...See More
      8 hours ago · Like · 2
    • Jeffery Clark The WELS (I won't speak for other synods, but I know LCMS does this to) purposely prints Christo-centric orders of worship in their hymnal. This is so that we have this uniform practice regarding the divine service across the whole synod. To depart fro...See More
      8 hours ago · Edited · Like · 1
    • Gregory L. Jackson This is what happens when people trust gimmicks instead of the Means of Grace. That is the litmus test, because grace comes to us only through the Word and Sacraments.http://ichabodthegloryhasdeparted.blogspot.com/2013/04/missouri-is-not-so-far-down-rathole-of.html

    • Bradley Campbell I'm astounded and apalled at some of these compliments, "Travesty, sacrilege, blasphemy, idolatry" REALLY?!?!?!?! who are u to speak for what was preached in this service? were u there? I was, with my wife Amalia Campbell. and I can assure you that there was no Idolatry in this. yes Koine was the physical center of the front of the church. Are you saying thats what matters? that pastors HAVE to preach from the Pulpit? or that the alter HAS to be set up in a certain way? if you are perhaps you should reanalyze your scripture. Matthew 18:20 says "For where two or three are come together IN MY NAME, there am I among them" there is no mention of a pulpit, a alter or HOW the service was conducted. God instructs us to come together in his name to preach his word and give him praise. Yes there was a short sermon to which some people may not have felt were "suitable for a sunday service" and it did not have some parts of the standard cookie cutter service, however God's word was preached, Jesus's story was told, and His name was praised, please tell me what is wrong with that??
      6 hours ago · Like · 2
    • Allen Michael Schmitz think vineyard church...fun with jesus
    • Gregory L. Jackson Bradley, I don't think I need to hear a five minute Easter sermon (probably copied from Groeschel) to realize this was a mockery of Easter Sunday. The purpose of worship is to preach the Gospel thoroughly, not to entertain the Boomers.
      5 hours ago · Like · 1
    • Allen Michael Schmitz think brain wash...then say Amen

    • Mark C. Robinson The greatest concern I see is when people look to the worship service to bring in new people. For my own part, I don't believe that a true worship service is the best place for a spiritual seeker. I say that because the worship service has established forms which are beneficial to those who understand them, but which cannot be appreciated fully by those who don't.

      A seeker should go to the Christian concert and get the "Jesus Saves" blended message which draws and encourages learning. When they learn enough to understand, *then* they should attend a worship service with enough knowledge to appreciate what is going on. I'm not saying they have to be confirmed: only that it's a disservice to dumb down the worship service to appeal to outsiders.
    • Christian Schulz Regarding the OP picture, it makes me wonder what, theologically, is going on and being conveyed. Does not faith and act -- doctrine and practice -- go hand-in-hand? This, to me, conveys a praise of a particular style of music rather than a reverent extolling of the sacraments while the music takes the back seat. It's pretty evident by sticking them in the front, covering the Altar from which blessings flow through the sacrament of the altar (especially on Easter, of all days to receive the risen Christ). There are major shifts happening in Lutheranism from sacramental (God coming to us to graciously forgive our sins, Sunday to Sunday, and us receiving it with reverence and awe [Hebrews 11]) to sacrificial (praise focussed - us to God - narrow sense of the word "worship") oriented services. This all, not mentioning how Lutherans confess to worship in our own Confessions of faith. What a contradiction from the start considering the Confessions.
      3 hours ago via mobile · Like
    • Allen Michael Schmitz ok are we all together on the fact that we have a cult mind/hive mind?....or im I a outsider looking in?
    • Bryan Lidtke http://ecclesiaaugustana.blogspot.com/2013/04/musings-on-contemporary-worship.html

      Ecclesia Augustana: Musings on Contemporary Worship
      ecclesiaaugustana.blogspot.com
      "Haec fere summa est doctrinae apud nos, in qua cerni potest nihil inesse, quod ...See More

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bruce-church (https://bruce-church.myopenid.com/) has left a new comment on your post "Facebook Discussion about Koine Crowding Chancel E...":

Perhaps Todd Wilkens ought to mention this. A conservative LCMS church in southeast St. Louis is vacating their A-frame style chancel and building a more traditional church right on the same property:

http://www.callnewspapers.com/Articles-Our-Town-i-2013-04-03-266142.112112-Peace-to-break-ground-for-new-sanctuary.html#123

http://www.peacelutheranstl.org/expansion/
Posted by Ichabod the Glory Has Departed at 4:39 AM
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