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| Bishop Stephan brought his female groupies to America, left his wife behind in Europe, and CFW Walther claimed, "We didn't know!" Stephan taught Walther the Easter absolution he learned during his studies at Halle University, citadel of Pietism and rationalism. |
Brett Meyer (Brett_meyer) Member Username: Brett_meyer Post Number: 104 Registered: 1-2008 |
This is an appropriate moment to post what Martin Luther wrote: Martin Luther, "12. As before said, they regard faith of slight importance; for they do not understand that it is our sole justifier. To accept as true the record of Christ--this they call faith. The devils have the same sort of faith, but it does not make them godly. Such belief is not Christian faith; no, it is rather deception. 15. ...You see how they make faith of no value to themselves, and so must regard as heresy all doctrine based upon it. Thus they do away with the whole Gospel. These are they who deny the Christian faith and exterminate it from the world. Paul prophesied concerning them when he said (1 Tim 4, 1): "In later times some shall fall away from the faith." The voice of faith is now silenced all over the world. Indeed, faith is condemned and banished as the worst heresy, and all who teach and endorse it are condemned with it. The Pope, the bishops, charitable institutions, cloisters, high schools, unanimously opposed it for nearly four hundred years, and simply drove the world violently into hell. Their conduct is the real persecution by Antichrist, in the last times. 22. Now, the Cain-like saints have not, as they themselves confess, the Christian faith which would assure them of being the children of God. 29. You cannot extricate yourself from unbelief, nor can the Law do it for you. All your works in intended fulfilment of the Law must remain works of the Law and powerless to justify in the sight of God, who regards as just only believing children. 37. Note, Paul everywhere teaches justification, not by works, but solely by faith; and not as a process, but instantaneous. The testament includes in itself everything--justification, salvation, the inheritance and great blessing. Through faith it is instantaneously enjoyed, not in part, but all. Truly is it plain, then, that faith alone affords such blessings of God, justification and salvation-- immediately and not in process as must be the case with works 74. But what is the process whereby Christ gives us such a spirit and redeems us from under the Law? The work is effected solely by faith.He who believes that Christ came to redeem us, and that he has accomplished it, is really redeemed. As he believes, so is it with him. Faith carries with it the child-making spirit. The apostle here explains by saying that Christ has redeemed us from under the Law that we mightreceive the adoption of sons. As before stated, all must be effected through faith. Now we have discussed the five points of the verse. http://www.trinitylutheranms.org/MartinLuther/MLSe rmons/Galatians4_1_7.html in the sight of God, who regards as just only believing children. | ||
     Franz Linden (Franz_mann) Senior Member Username: Franz_mann Post Number: 1792 Registered: 12-2004 |
Mr. Meyer, You are being dishonest with yourself and with others. You intentionally highlight that which you believe supports your error. Everyone of us on LQ would say "Amen" to what you highlight. Your dishonesty is that you put these quotations forward as though Luther was speaking about something other than justification by faith verses justification by works. That's the subject he is addressing. Of course one is justified by faith in Christ and in no other way. But what Christ? Not merely the Christ who went around preaching and teaching, but the Christ who took away the sins of the world by His suffering and death. Now, if those sins are taken away and because they are God has reconciled the world to Himself and declares that He justifies the ungodly and that all those who sinned and fall short of the glory of God are justified through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, how dare you say that they are not? Others have put forth other quotations of Luther where He speaks pointedly to universal justification. Why do you accept some writings of Luther but not others? Never mind. I already have the answer to that question. If you will not listen to the law and the prophets, neither will you be convinced though one, as it were, speaks from the dead. Franz | ||
| Rev. Guillaume Williams (Revhardheaded) Senior Member Username: Revhardheaded Post Number: 4782 Registered: 10-2004 |
Actually the best argument against universal objective justification is...... justification does not equal atonement, propitiation, righteousness, reconciliation, and a host of other gospel terms which are applied universally to all mankind. They are merely related but are not the same thing. While I would agree there are certain nuances to each term, relatively speaking, it all ends up meaning the same thing: We have objective promises from God about what Christ has done for the whole world in his flesh. The Rev. Guillaume J. S. Williams, Sr GEAUX SAINTS! GEAUX LSU!!! | ||
| Rev. David R. Boisclair (Drboisclair) Intermediate Member Username: Drboisclair Post Number: 354 Registered: 1-2002 |
Guillaume, what type of point are you making here? Please clarify your post. Are you trying to find common ground? What is the status controversiae? Maybe it is simple: one side says Justification has an objective/universal aspect and also a subjective/individual aspect and the other side says that it is purely subjective/individual that God justifies people one at a time. As Franz has proven boldly and carefully we who hold to the biblical doctrine of Objective Justification believe in the Sola Fide, that the only way a sinner can be saved is through God worked faith in Christ, Justification by faith alone. Franz, I believe that Brett is arguing that Sola Fide means that Justification cannot be considered in any other context than individual faith. He makes Sola Fide do this extra duty for those who deny Objective Justification. | ||
| Rev. Guillaume Williams (Revhardheaded) Senior Member Username: Revhardheaded Post Number: 4783 Registered: 10-2004 |
The point I'm making is that the only leg deniers of UOJ is most of the time when we are discussing the key text passages that support UOJ the word Justification is not used. Another gospel word is used. I'm surprised I haven't seen it come up yet. It is their best argument. However, if and when they do use it, they are still wrong. All Mr. Meyer is doing is finding all the subjective justification passages in the bible, sections of the Confessions and works of Luther while ignoring the objective justification passages. So if Mr. Meyer did pick up this line of reasoning, how would defend against it? The Rev. Guillaume J. S. Williams, Sr GEAUX SAINTS! GEAUX LSU!!! | ||
| Franz Linden (Franz_mann) Senior Member Username: Franz_mann Post Number: 1793 Registered: 12-2004 |
Rev. Williams, Mr. Meyer has carefully stayed away from this argumentation, because there are key passages that use justification that absolutely support UOJ. Specifically, Romans 4:5 which says: And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness. Nowhere else in Holy Scripture are believers referred to by God as ungodly. Yet, God justifies the ungodly, according to Paul. Who, then, does God justify? Simply put, it's a dog that can't hunt. Franz | ||
| Rev. David R. Boisclair (Drboisclair) Intermediate Member Username: Drboisclair Post Number: 356 Registered: 1-2002 |
Good points. Also as I posted above. Brett believes that sola fide means that there is no Justification other than what we call Subjective Justification, which is the position of Jackson/Rydecki/ELDoNA. Sola fide does "double duty" for them: excluding works and excluding Objective Justification. Sola fide is a exclusive particle that affirms that sinners are justified by the imputation of the alien righteousness of Christ. Franz makes an excellent point that one doesn't always notice when one studies these chapters of Romans. | ||
| Rev. Guillaume Williams (Revhardheaded) Senior Member Username: Revhardheaded Post Number: 4784 Registered: 10-2004 |
Don't forget Rom. 5 Franz: Rom 5:6-11 For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. (7) For one will scarcely die for a righteous person--though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die-- (8) but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. (9) Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. (10) For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. (11) More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation. The Rev. Guillaume J. S. Williams, Sr GEAUX SAINTS! GEAUX LSU!!! | ||
| Brett Meyer (Brett_meyer) Member Username: Brett_meyer Post Number: 105 Registered: 1-2008 |
Rev. Williams states, “All Mr. Meyer is doing is finding all the subjective justification passages in the bible, sections of the Confessions and works of Luther while ignoring the objective justification passages.” This is incorrect. At 10:34am I showed where key UOJ Scripture passages that are ab-used to show how the unbelieving world has been imputed Christ’s righteousness for the forgiveness of sins without faith – actually includes salvation. Boisclair at 9:31pm, “affirms that sinners are justified by the imputation of the alien righteousness of Christ.” So that if righteousness comes to unbelievers then so does salvation. Romans 5:17-18, “ For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.” It is your faith in your rationalistic extrapolations that blinds you to your folly – so much so that you accuse me of your own crimes. Through your rejection of the Holy Spirit’s faith, the Gospel of the Triune God and therefore Christ Himself, you are incapable of understanding the clear Words of Scripture and the equally clear words of the Lutheran Confessions. You throw the OJ and SJ terms around and accuse me of ignoring OJ while the entire time I’ve been providing the Biblical and Confessional proof that there is nothing in Christ’s doctrine of Justification that is not fully and completely Objective – from Christ’s accepted payment for the whole worlds sins to the gracious gift of faith in Him alone that the Holy Spirit works solely through Word and Sacrament – of which Christ is the Author and Finisher. Franz states, “Nowhere else in Holy Scripture are believers referred to by God as ungodly.” Simply another example of the incessant rationalism that comes with the confession of the false gospel of Universal Objective Justification. Scripture rejects your teaching Franz in Galatians 3:27, “For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.” And Romans 8:33, “Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.” You teach that God refers to all those who have put on Christ as ungodly. This is blasphemy which is the bread and butter of the false gospel of UOJ. Rev. Williams rally’s with, “Don't forget Rom. 5 Franz” and goes on to quote verses 6-11 but fails to quote verses 1-5. Romans 5 1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: 2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. 3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; 4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope: 5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us. 6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. NOTE – the we in the verses Rev. Williams hijacks for his nefarious purposes doesn’t include the unbelieving world as he and the doctrine of UOJ teach. But it refers to those justified by faith in verse 1, verse 2, verse 3, verse 5 using ‘our’ and ‘us’ and then into verse 6. Shame upon you all for perverting the Scriptures to serve your lust for righteousness without the faith of the Holy Spirit which you have rejected and which you teach others to reject as well. |
