 |
| This is another unkind but accurate Photoshop. Has PETA been alerted? Is Paul McCain or Tim Glende the anonymous Doubting Thomas? |
- February 18th, 2014 at 15:54 | #34Joe, I believe Romans addresses your question.Romans 11:17-24, “And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. Well;because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?”Forgiveness of sins (and Reconciliation with God, Christ’s righteousness, the washing of regeneration, the adoption of sons and eternal life) is solely by the gracious gift of the Holy Spirit’s faith in Christ alone. Faith in Christ alone – the forgiveness of sins. No faith in Christ alone – no sins forgiven.Forgiveness follows conversion (faith in Christ):
Mark 4:12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.No faith – die in your sins (clearly not forgiven):
John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.Faith – forgiveness of sins:
Matthew 9:2 And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee.
Mark 2:5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee.
Luke 5:20 And when he saw their faith, he said unto him, Man, thy sins are forgiven thee.Thank you for your question,
In Christ,
Brett Meyer - February 18th, 2014 at 16:13 | #35Mr. Pierce, you make the statement, “Notice Mr. Meyer’s comments above. Nobody is reconciled to God until the individual has faith. This is a tremendous error (as pointed out in the article I quote in an earlier comment above) which attacks the Scriptural teaching of the vicarious atonement of Jesus.”I disagree with your contention that the unbelieving world is reconciled to God before and without faith in Christ. You contradict the BOC where it clearly states, “113] But faith… and the Holy Ghost in the heart, says: The promise of God is true and certain]. Of 114] this faith Scripture speaks. And because it receives the remission of sins, and reconciles us to God, by this faith we are [like Abraham] accounted righteous for Christ’s sake … this faith… is a work of the Holy Ghost…” quoted fully below.You go on to state, “Scriptural truth is that our sins are really forgiven prior to our ever having faith.”Your statements are in direct contradiction to Scripture and the Christian Book of Concord:
86] But since we receive remission of sins and the Holy Ghost by faith alone, faith alone justifies, because those reconciled are accounted righteous and children of God, not on account of their own purity, but through mercy for Christ’s sake, provided only they by faith apprehend this mercy. Accordingly, Scripture testifies that by faith we are accounted righteous, Rom. 3:26. We, therefore, will add testimonies which clearly declare that faith is that very righteousness by which we are accounted righteous before God, namely, not because it is a work that is in itself worthy, but because it receives the promise by which God has promised that for Christ’s sake He wishes to be propitious to those believing in Him, or because He knows that Christ of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption,1 Cor. 1:30.Since reconciliation with God is solely through the gracious gift of faith in Christ alone whereby an individuals apprehends Christ as Mediator and Propitiatior – the forgiveness of sins is also solely by faith in Christ alone. The BOC quotes quite clearly teach that faith is of the Holy Spirit and is not a work of man – destroying UOJ’s claim that Justification solely by faith alone makes faith synergistic.BOC full quotes (also found in comment #22 above)
86] But since we receive remission of sins and the Holy Ghost by faith alone, faith alone justifies, because those reconciled are accounted righteous and children of God, not on account of their own purity, but through mercy for Christ’s sake, provided only they by faith apprehend this mercy. Accordingly, Scripture testifies that by faith we are accounted righteous, Rom. 3:26. We, therefore, will add testimonies which clearly declare that faith is that very righteousness by which we are accounted righteous before God, namely, not because it is a work that is in itself worthy, but because it receives the promise by which God has promised that for Christ’s sake He wishes to be propitious to those believing in Him, or because He knows that Christ of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption, 1 Cor. 1:30.113] But faith, properly so called, is that which assents to the promise [is when my heart, and the Holy Ghost in the heart, says: The promise of God is true and certain]. Of 114] this faith Scripture speaks. And because it receives the remission of sins, and reconciles us to God, by this faith we are [like Abraham] accounted righteous for Christ’s sake before we love and do the works of the Law, although love necessarily follows. 115]Nor, indeed, is this faith an idle knowledge, neither can it coexist with mortal sin, but it is a work of the Holy Ghost, whereby we are freed from death, and terrified minds are encouraged and quickened. 116]
http://www.bookofconcord.org/defense_4_justification.php - February 18th, 2014 at 16:28 | #36The problem is not that you disagree with me, Mr. Meyer. No, the problem is that you sinfully reject the clear statements of the Holy Scriptures with regard to reconciliation. Just like the Devil himself, you twist the comfort of the Gospel as found in 2 Corinthians 5:19 into the evil doctrine that we must look inside ourselves for faith before we can know that God is at peace with us. You, Mr. Meyer, are a wolf hiding in sheep’s clothing.Here are a couple pertinent quotations for others to read and which I hope will help others who may be doubting what the Scriptures do in fact teach and to point out that Lutherans have never confessed a limited reconciliation as Mr. Meyer’s does.“God has given us the Gospel, in which he offers free forgiveness before we prayed for it or even thought of it.” (Large Catechism,Lord’s Prayer, Fifth Petition, 88. Triglot, p. 273)“Isaiah here [53:11] uses the word “many” for the word “all,” after the manner of Paul in Rom. 5:15. The thought there is: One has sinned (Adam), One is righteous (Christ), and many are made righteous. There is no difference between “many” and “all.” The righteousness of Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, our Lord and Savior, is so great that it could justify innumerable worlds. “He shall justify many,” says he, that is to say, all. It should, therefore, be understood of all, because He offers his righteousness to all, and all who believe in Christ obtain it. – Martin Luther (Explanation of Isaiah 53, quoted in What Luther Says, p. 608)…Paul says in Rom. 8[:2], “For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set me free from the law of sin and death.” Why does he not say that, “It has set me free from sin and death”? Has not Christ set us free from sin and death once and for all? Paul, however, is speaking of the proper operation of the law of the Spirit, which does what Christ has merited. Indeed, Christ once and for all absolved and freed everyone from sin and death when He merited for us the law of the Spirit of the Life. But what did that Spirit of Life do? He has not yet freed us from death and sin, for we still must die, we still must labor under sin; but in the end He will free us. Yet He has already liberated us from the law of sin and death, that is, from the kingdom and tyranny of sin and death. Sin is indeed present, but having lost its tyrannic power, it can do nothing; death indeed impends, but having lost its sting, it can neither harm nor terrify. – Martin Luther (Against Latomus, Luther’s Works, Vol. 32, p. 207)…we heard the Lord proclaim to Nicodemus and to the whole world that God sent His Son into the world, not to condemn the world but to save it [cf. John 3:17]. We also heard that such salvation comes from faith, for whoever believes in Christ does not enter into judgment [cf. John 3:18]. Such a message should really dissolve all discord and unite us in thanks to God night and day. The whole world should jump and dance for joy. …the judgment is over; this means that the wrath of God, hell, and damnation are no more. For the Son of God came that we might be saved and delivered from death and hell. Then what is still lacking? Faith. People refuse to believe this. … This is the judgment: that such an ineffably comforting doctrine of God’s grace, procured for the world through Christ, is proclaimed, but that the world still wants to believe the devil rather than God and His beloved Son. And this despite the fact that God assures us: “Sin, hell, judgment, and God’s wrath have all been terminated by the Son.” …the judgment is incurred by man’s refusal to accept Christ, the Son of God. Of course, man’s sin, both that inherited from Adam and that committed by man himself, is deserving of death. But this judgment results from man’s unwillingness to hear, to tolerate, and to accept the Savior, who removed sin, bore it on His shoulders, and locked up the portals of hell. … It is expressly stated here that Christ came and removed the sin of the world so completely that it is entirely deleted, entirely forgiven. But to refuse the Helper, to refuse to hear the Man who abolishes sin, and, more than this, to want to kill Him and to persevere in sin – that is vile and base. … To be sure, the judgment has been removed, and hell and God’s wrath have been removed. Security and peace between God and us have also been established through the Son, who did not come to condemn the world…but to save the world. All that is still lacking is the acceptance of the Son. … Thus all is well if you believe. But those who love darkness more than light will experience the reverse. They must live in dread of the Last Day. For the believer, the thought of this Day is comforting, since condemnation and the terrible judgment are gone. – Martin Luther (Sermons on the Gospel of St. John, Luther’s Works, Vol. 22, pp. 381-85)Here we have the true significance of the keys. They are an office, a power or command given by God through Christ to all of Christendom for the retaining and remitting of the sins of men. … Rely on the words of Christ and be assured that God has no other way to forgive sins than through the spoken Word, as he has commanded us. If you do not look for forgiveness through the Word, you will gape toward heaven in vain for grace, or (as they say), for a sense of inner forgiveness. … Do you believe he is not bound who does not believe in the key which binds? Indeed, he shall learn, in due time, that his unbelief did not make the binding vain, nor did it fail in its purpose. Even he who does not believe that he is free and his sins forgiven shall also learn, in due time, how assuredly his sins were forgiven, even though he did not believe it. St. Paul says in Rom. 3[:3]: “Their faithlessness [does not] nullify the faithfulness of God.” We are not talking here either about people’s belief or disbelief regarding the efficacy of the keys. We realize that few believe. We are speaking of what the keys accomplish and give. He who does not accept what the keys give receives, of course, nothing. But this is not the key’s fault. Many do not believe the gospel, but this does not mean that the gospel is not true or effective. A king gives you a castle. If you do not accept it, then it is not the king’s fault, nor is he guilty of a lie. But you have deceived yourself and the fault is yours. The king certainly gave it. – Martin Luther (The Keys, Luther’s Works, Vol. 40, pp. 366-67)The preaching of the holy gospel itself is principally and actually an absolution in which forgiveness of sins is proclaimed in general and in public to many persons, or publicly or privately to one person alone. Therefore absolution may be used in public and in general, and in special cases also in private, just as the sermon may take place publicly or privately, and as one might comfort many people in public or someone individually in private. Even if not all believe [the word of absolution], that is no reason to reject [public] absolution, for each absolution, whether administered publicly or privately, has to be understood as demanding faith and as being an aid to those who believe in it, just as the gospel itself also proclaims forgiveness to all men in the whole world and exempts no one from this universal context. Nevertheless the gospel certainly demands our faith and does not aid those who do not believe it; and yet the universal context of the gospel has to remain [valid]. – Martin Luther and Philip Melanchthon (Letter to the Council of the City of Nuernberg [April 18, 1533], Luther’s Works, Vol. 50, pp. 76-77)By raising [Christ] from the dead, [God] absolved him from our sins which had been imputed to him, and therefore he also absolved us in him, that Christ’s resurrection might thus be the cause and the proof and the completion of our justification. – Johann Gerhard (Annotationes in Epist. ad Rom. [Jena, 1666], p. 156)Christ’s resurrection took place as an actual absolution from sin. As God punished our sins in Christ, upon whom He laid them and to whom He imputed them, as our Bondsman, so He also, by the very act of raising Him from the dead, absolved Him from our sins imputed to Him, and so He absolved also us in Him. – Abraham Calov (Bibl. Illust., ad Rom. 4:25)The word “justification” and “reconciliation” is used in a twofold manner: 1) in respect of the acquired merit, 2) in respect of the appropriated merit. Thus all are justified and some are justified. All, in respect of the acquired merit; some, in respect of the appropriated merit. – John QuistorpOf course, the fact that the Lutheran Church has always taught the concept of Objective Justification does not, in and of itself, make that concept true. But, it is an important fact nevertheless.”
- February 18th, 2014 at 16:40 | #37Brett, you didn’t answer my question.Let me re-frame it; Does God forgive and un-forgive sin? Yes or no?
- February 18th, 2014 at 17:38 | #38Mr. Pierce states, “you twist the comfort of the Gospel as found in 2 Corinthians 5:19 into the evil doctrine that we must look inside ourselves for faith before we can know that God is at peace with us.”Your statement is corrected by Christ when He teaches in 2 Corinthians 13:5 “Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?You call it an evil doctrine to base an individuals justification (forgiveness of sins) solely on faith in Christ alone – but Christ Himself states that Christians are to examine themselves to see if they believe in Christ alone or not. Tied together with the faithful confessions which clearly declare only believers have apprehended Christ as Mediator and their Propitiation through faith alone.In fact those who do not believe in Christ should understand that because of unbelief they remain under God’s wrath and condemnation – not His peace as you contend.
John 3:36 “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”Your quote of the Catechism is appropriate as it emphasises the Gospel message as a promise, an offer, that the Holy Spirit fulfills in those God has called through the Means of Grace. “God has given us the Gospel, in which he offers free forgiveness before we prayed for it or even thought of it.” (Large Catechism,Lord’s Prayer, Fifth Petition, 88. Triglot, p. 273) Note that it does not state, “in which he declares the whole unbelieving world forgiven…” It is the Gospel promise of the forgivness of sins solely through faith in Christ alone – the Ministry of Reconciliation which, as the BOC (#22 above) confirms is solely through faith alone having thus apprehended Christ as Mediator and Propitiation.Your Luther quote is the same, “It should, therefore, be understood of all, because He offers his righteousness to all, and all who believe in Christ obtain it. – Martin Luther (Explanation of Isaiah 53, quoted in What Luther Says, p. 608)
UOJ doesn’t teach an offer or promise of forgiveness of sins but God’s divine and omnipotent declaration that the whole unbelieving world is forgiven, justified and righteous. UOJ teaches a different gospel than the Gospel revealed in Scripture and confirmed in the Confessions. - February 18th, 2014 at 18:02 | #39My statement is not corrected, Mr. Meyer. The reason why is we are talking about the teaching that Christ has reconciled the world to God (2 Cor. 5:19) through His sacrifice on the cross. But, your response is typical. I liken it to a game of theological “wack-o-mole.” The moment your error is “wacked down” you pop-up with something else as a diversion.What you have failed to see Mr. Meyer, and this has been shown to you over many years by myself and many others, is that 2 Cor. 5:19 is talking about the reconciliation of the world to God. That Scripture doesn’t stand alone, it stands with many other Scriptures (e.g John 1:29) teaching us the same thing and as cited above.Regarding 2 Cor. 13:5. It does not teach that we should examine ourselves for faith to find whether or not Christ’s sacrifice on the cross reconciled us to the Father. What you want us to believe is that we must examine ourselves for faith in order to know we are reconciled to God. 2 Corinthians 13:5 surely isn’t teaching us to examine ourselves to find whether or not Christ has won our forgiveness. That scripture most assuredly doesn’t teach a limited reconciliation which you teach and that is the point of the discussion and the context of my comment.
- February 18th, 2014 at 18:40 | #40@Jim Pierce #39
Mr. Pierce, in context 2 Cor. 5 doesn’t teach that the whole world has been reconciled to God through Christ’s atonement as you claim and as the doctrine of UOJ teaches. The bolded sections clearly denote Christ speaking of Christians being reconciled to God. Even verse 18 clearly states ‘reconciled us’ (the apostle Paul refering to the Christians he was writting to). Compared to verse 19′s use of ‘reconciling the world’ which clearly doesn’t mean the same as ‘reconciled’ in verse 18 but instead refers to the process of reconciliation – the Ministry of Reconciliation – the Gospel promise of reconciliation through faith in Christ alone and thereby following with the plea in verse 20, “be ye reconciled to God.”17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God.Now it is true UOJ teaches that verse 19 proves that God does not impute the unbelieving worlds sins to them – that God has forgiven the whole world of unbelievers – yet Scripture teaches they are condemned already – certainly not reconciled – John 3:18 “He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.”The BOC confirms my confession concerning reconcilation and rejects UOJ’s universal reconciliation that occurred without the Means of Grace working faith in Christ alone.
Brief BOC quotes from comment #22 above – “Paul on the contrary, teaches that we have access, i.e., reconciliation, through Christ. And to show how this occurs, he adds that we have access by faith.” Now this quote from the Lutheran Confession alone destroys the doctrine of UOJ by showing that reconciliation through Christ is solely by faith alone. No Universal Reconciliation here outside of and without the Holy Spirit’s faith in Christ.Here too:
“Of 114] this faith Scripture speaks. And because it receives the remission of sins, and reconciles us to God, by this faith we are [like Abraham] accounted righteous for Christ’s sake.” Faith reconciles us to God. No faith – no reconciliation. Note also UOJ’s teaching that the unbelieving world has been declared righteous – nope, “…by this faith we are accounted righteous for Christ’s sake.” Not ‘without faith….’I hope this helps clarify,
In Christ,
Brett Meyer - February 18th, 2014 at 18:44 | #41In the end, I’m just perplexed by this. The anti-OJ crowd seems to determined to believe that Objective Justification means that people are universally saved without faith in Jesus. No one on this thread has ever made the claim that a man is justified without faith in Christ. That is not what Objective Justification means. It seems so clear, I truly can’t understand why the anti-OJ crowd persists in this bizarre misrepresentation of the doctrine.Jesus died for the sins of the whole world. The benefits of His death and resurrection are individually applied to a man through the means of grace. Unless a man is brought to faith in Jesus by the Holy Spirit, he is lost. Yet the fact remains that Jesus died for all. To me, the strangest part of this is that the anti-OJ people are really just arguing in favor of the Calvinist idea of a limited atonement, yet they continue to argue that their position is the truly Lutheran one. Weird.It’s clear that no amount of Scriptural proof or evidence from the great theologians of our church will have any impact on the deniers of Objective Justification. Oh well. I wish them well and pray that they eventually figure this out.
- February 18th, 2014 at 18:53 | #42“UOJ doesn’t teach an offer or promise of forgiveness of sins but God’s divine and omnipotent declaration that the whole unbelieving world is forgiven, justified and righteous. UOJ teaches a different gospel than the Gospel revealed in Scripture and confirmed in the Confessions.”Not to belabor the point, but the above quotation is a perfect example of what I was referring to. In no way, shape, manner, or form does UOJ teach that all men are forgiven, justified, and righteous regardless of faith in Jesus. It teaches that Jesus died for the whole world, on the basis of clear Scripture. It also teaches that a man must have that salvation applied to him individually through the means of grace before he can he can be accounted forgiven, justified, and righteous. Without faith in Christ, no man can be saved. Objective Justification is not universalism. It just isn’t. The above claim is flat wrong. It’s always been wrong and will continue to be wrong, no matter how many times it’s repeated.I realize I’m wasting my keystrokes here, but I just find the tenacity of this misrepresentation of clear Lutheran doctrine to be mystifying.
- February 18th, 2014 at 18:54 | #43Brett Meyer :
Mr. Pierce, in context 2 Cor. 5 doesn’t teach that the whole world has been reconciled to God through Christ’s atonement as you claim and as the doctrine of UOJ teaches.And yet again, Mr. Meyer goes on record denying that Christ has atoned for the sins of all of mankind reconciling the world to His Father.As I pointed out earlier, the problem with Meyer’s view and by extension that of his teacher Greg Jackson is they attack the Scriptural view of the vicarious atonement of Christ.Mark and avoid! - February 18th, 2014 at 18:59 | #44Greg Jackson’s website gives some insight into the cult-like attitude of this small clique of people who seem to obsessively rant against the basic Scriptural doctrine that Christ died for all. The website is littered with unkind photoshops of various people and seems more interested in mockery and derision than any kind of serious theological discourse. I agree with you. mark and avoid. Thank you again for your able defense of our doctrine.
- February 18th, 2014 at 22:03 | #45Doubting Thomas states, “Not to belabor the point, but the above quotation is a perfect example of what I was referring to. In no way, shape, manner, or form does UOJ teach that all men are forgiven, justified, and righteous regardless of faith in Jesus. …Objective Justification is not universalism. It just isn’t. The above claim is flat wrong. It’s always been wrong and will continue to be wrong, no matter how many times it’s repeated.I disagree. The following quote from this thread alone proves your contention incorrect.Jim PierceThe Scriptural truth is that our sins are really forgiven prior to our ever having faith. We teach that faith is the hand receiving ACTUAL (real) forgiveness. Not merely a potentiality made real by the person’s having faith. Mr. Krohn’s question nails the problem!Mr. Pierce goes on to state, “And yet again, Mr. Meyer goes on record denying that Christ has atoned for the sins of all of mankind reconciling the world to His Father.”The truth is my confession has been consistent that Christ atoned for the sins of the whole world – that the iniquity of the whole world was laid upon Christ and His payment for those sins was accepted by God the Father in Christ’s resurrection. The atonement is not the same as reconciliation since Christ’s payment for the world’s sins is Extra Nos but the work of the Holy Spirit through the Means of Grace to create Godly contrition over sin and the righteousness of faith in those God has called to believe in Christ alone is His Ministry of Reconciliation.The BOC confirms my confession here:
“For this reason, then, His obedience, not only in suffering and dying, but also in this, that He in our stead was voluntarily made under the Law, and fulfilled it by this obedience, is imputed to us for righteousness, so that, on account of this complete obedience, which He rendered His heavenly Father for us, by doing and suffering, in living and dying, God forgives our sins, regards us as godly and righteous, and eternally saves us. 16] This righteousness is offered us by the Holy Ghost through the Gospel and in the Sacraments, and is applied, appropriated, and received through faith, whence believers have reconciliation with God, forgiveness of sins, the grace of God sonship, and heirship of eternal life.”
http://www.bookofconcord.org/sd-righteousness.phpYet another BOC quote that abolishes the false gospel of UOJ.
In Christ,
Brett Meyer - February 19th, 2014 at 00:36 | #46@Brett Meyer #31
Thank you for your answer, Mr. Meyer. Your problem is that you distort the teaching of the BoC by imposing a teaching on it the reformers would not have dreamt of appearing someday in the church: that faith would posited against Christ and his work. You continue to quote the passages where Melanchthon speaks of the subjective side of justification, or, which is the same, the way, in which Christ and his merits are applied to us to create the distorted view the atonement of Christ is completed by our accepting his work.Since the objective side of justification, or, which is the same, what Christ has done for us in his life and especially on the cross, is in almost all cases summarized in some short sentences, because it was not disputed. Augsb. Conf. III and Apol III speak of the objective side of justification, what Christ has done, and he continues in article IV to describe how we receive it. And then there is the little gem in Augsb. Conf. 27, 49, where Melanchthon, describing true service to God, describes faith by: “and to trust that for Christ’s sake we have a God who has been reconciled .”Now to my questions and your answers. But a word caution first:
Never … ever … distort the teaching of the norma normans by pressing it in a corset of your illusionary view of the doctrine of the norma normata!a) You are dead wrong. The scripture is clear: “God was in Christ and reconciled the world to himself.” (2 Kor 5,19) Because of that we are reconciled, too. Our faith receives that.b) Again you close your eyes from the clear word of God. “Behold the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.” (John 1,29) Of course “to take away” means that the world’s sin is taken care of, it is forgiven.c) As usual, you are wrong. “He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.” (1 John 2,2) Note how the argument goes. The first part speaks of the believer. Than St. John tries to bolster his argument by stating something greater by magnifying the scopus. To claim the sin of the world is not propitiated because they do not believe destroys the argument St. John is making.d) Paul makes use of the same structure in Romans 5,10: “For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life.” In the second part he speaks of the believer (“now that we are reconciled”), and the whole point is to go from one fact to an even greater fact by escalating the argument: Before we believed God already reconciled us, because he reconciled the world to himself, so now, that we are believing and have received the merits of Christ, we will surely live and see our eternal rest.By your answers the spirit who is at work here is clearly brought to light. Since not can be what not shall be, should God really mean what he says?“Should God really mean you will die when he says that you will die? No, you will be like him.Should Jesus really mean that baptism saves when he says whoever believes and is baptized will be saved? No, baptism does not save.Should Jesus really mean he is one with the father when he says that he and the father are one? No, they only want the same things.Should Jesus really mean that this is his body and blood? No, it’s only bread and wine.Did God reconcile the world to himself? No, has not done that.”You are a persistent in your error, and so you are marked and avoided. God be gracious to you poor soul. - February 19th, 2014 at 06:58 | #47Sven Wagschal :Now to my questions and your answers. But a word caution first:Never … ever … distort the teaching of the norma normans by pressing it in a corset of your illusionary view of the doctrine of the norma normata!
a) You are dead wrong. The scripture is clear: “God was in Christ and reconciled the world to himself.” (2 Kor 5,19) Because of that we are reconciled, too. Our faith receives that.
b) Again you close your eyes from the clear word of God. “Behold the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.” (John 1,29) Of course “to take away” means that the world’s sin is taken care of, it is forgiven.
c) As usual, you are wrong. “He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.” (1 John 2,2) Note how the argument goes. The first part speaks of the believer. Than St. John tries to bolster his argument by stating something greater by magnifying the scopus. To claim the sin of the world is not propitiated because they do not believe destroys the argument St. John is making.
d) Paul makes use of the same structure in Romans 5,10: “For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life.” In the second part he speaks of the believer (“now that we are reconciled”), and the whole point is to go from one fact to an even greater fact by escalating the argument: Before we believed God already reconciled us, because he reconciled the world to himself, so now, that we are believing and have received the merits of Christ, we will surely live and see our eternal rest.
By your answers the spirit who is at work here is clearly brought to light. Since not can be what not shall be, should God really mean what he says?
“Should God really mean you will die when he says that you will die? No, you will be like him.
Should Jesus really mean that baptism saves when he says whoever believes and is baptized will be saved? No, baptism does not save.
Should Jesus really mean he is one with the father when he says that he and the father are one? No, they only want the same things.
Should Jesus really mean that this is his body and blood? No, it’s only bread and wine.
Did God reconcile the world to himself? No, has not done that.”
You are a persistent in your error, and so you are marked and avoided. God be gracious to you poor soul.‘Reconciled’ in verses 18 and 20 is not the same as ‘Reconciling’ in verse 19 as I correctly pointed out. Which is in harmony with the Christian Book of Concord quotes I provided in comment #31, showing that only those who have the gracious gift of faith in Christ are reconciled to God. My first answers to your questions are still valid against your statements in comment #46.Neither yourself, Doubting Thomas or Mr. Pierce have provided any substantive contribution to the discussion regarding reconciliation which Scripture and the Lutheran Confessions speak of with such simple clarity. I’ll leave it to those reading the discussion to decide for themselves – by the grace and mercy of God.I appreciate the moderators of this forum allowing me to make a confession of my faith publicly.In Christ,
Brett Meyer - February 19th, 2014 at 08:41 | #48No one is saying that people are saved without faith in Christ. Why do you keep making that accusation? Jesus died to away the sins of the world. Just because a person rejects that salvation doesn’t mean that it wasn’t accomplished. Behold the Lamb who yakes (sic) away the sins of the world. Mr. Meyer, you seem determined to misrepresent basic Lutheran doctrine. Mr. Pierce in particular has gone to great lengths to demonstrate this to you. May I suggest you spend more time in a legitimate and orthodox Lutheran church and less time listening to Greg Jackson?
- February 19th, 2014 at 10:16 | #49Thomas :@Brett Meyer #47
No one is saying that people are saved without faith in Christ. Why do you keep making that accusation?Thomas, please provide the quote(s) where I made the accusation. You made the same claim in Comment #8.While on the subject though – Mr. Pierce provided and approved the following quotes in Comment #23:
“…the Christian religion teaches not merely that all men should be eternally saved but also that they already have been saved.”
“The Lutheran Church, on the other hand, tells man: “Everything is already accomplished. You have been redeemed. You have been justified before God.You are already saved.”There is only one meaning for the word Saved in Holy Scripture and the Lutheran Confessions and it doesn’t mean ‘Saved but not eternally saved’ as the doctrine of UOJ would have the world believe.Those who promote and defend the gospel of UOJ claim that it does not teach Universalism – that the whole world of unbelievers are saved. This can only be true if UOJ’s claim that God’s divine and omnipotent declaration that the unbelieving, faithless world is justified (forgiven all sin) and righteous in His sight doesn’t equal or result in eternal life.Consider that for a moment. To be righteous in God’s sight is to have apprehended Christ’s righteousness as Mediator and Propitiation (which Scripture and the BOC [see quotes in comment #22] clearly state is only by the gracious gift of the righteousness of faith in Christ alone) since men have no righteousness of their own. But UOJ teaches those God has declared forgiven and righteous in Christ are not saved eternally by the righteousness of Christ until they believe that they’ve already been declared so. So either God’s verdict is not omnipotent and therefore not divine or Christ’s righteousness is ineffectual in saving eternally.In contrast Scripture and the Confessions both clearly teach that Christ’s righteousness for the forgiveness of sins is eternal salvation.Allow me to quote the Lutheran Confessions:
“For this reason, then, His obedience, not only in suffering and dying, but also in this, that He in our stead was voluntarily made under the Law, and fulfilled it by this obedience, is imputed to us for righteousness, so that, on account of this complete obedience, which He rendered His heavenly Father for us, by doing and suffering, in living and dying, God forgives our sins, regards us as godly and righteous, and eternally saves us. 16] This righteousness is offered us by the Holy Ghost through the Gospel and in the Sacraments, and is applied,appropriated, and received through faith, whence believers have reconciliation with God, forgiveness of sins, the grace of God sonship, and heirship of eternal life.”
http://www.bookofconcord.org/sd-righteousness.phpGotta love the BOC!In Christ,
Brett Meyer
---
- February 19th, 2014 at 22:05 | #16@Jim Pierce #43
Sorry for arriving a little late to this; busy couple of days here. Mr. Pierce, I don’t understand why you have to bring Greg Jackson into this. Maybe I missed it, but I don’t think Mr. Meyer brought him up. Why is it that every time justification is discussed online, Greg Jackson must be mentioned? It seems as if you bring him up to completely discredit Mr. Meyer’s argument just because he agrees with Jackson. It sure seems like guilt by association, to me at least.
***
GJ - The UOJ Hive drones have tried to franchise their dogma to condemn anyone who teaches justification by faith as NOT being Lutheran. They try to give one another credibility by mutual back-patting and establishing their canon at Halle University (without naming HU).
Jim Pierce is yet another UOJ expert on "Steadfast" (the people who cover up for LCMS sex criminals and DPs - OK that is redundant). His only qualifications are his decades of being an Atheist and then a Pentecostal ("By the mercy and grace of God, his journey has taken him away from Pentecostalism into eighteen years of atheism...").
Let's just aim at one little factoid Pierce parades as the truth. Brett Meyer is not a "follower." He was disgusted with UOJ and found one Lutheran who saw through the errors of that dogma. He got the Internet service going, which people across Lutherdom enjoy - no Thrivent grants, no synod subsidies.
As I wrote before, the UOJ Hatists give their game away by trying to make justification by faith the personal hobby of one or two people. They ineptly use guilt by association (sui generis) whenever someone puts a knot in their knickers. Jack Kilcrease does this on a FB blog where I am banned. Like Pierce, he fights without discipline and runs without shame.
I am probably still banned on "Steadfast," because the overpaid and underworked plagiarist, Paul McCain insisted. I hardly ever read "Steadfast" so I do not know if they have expressed outrage or shame that their CPH wantonly copies from The Catholic Encyclopedia and passed the material off as his own.
"Steadfast" practices selective (and temporary) outrage, just as ELCA practices selective diversity.
I figure people will find their way to this blog if they want:
1. Eight volumes of Luther's sermons.
2. Sermons for every Sunday and every special day of the church year.
3. Texts or links to dozens of Lutheran resources.
4. Fun Photoshops.
5. Inspirational illustrations and painting by Norma Boeckler.
6. Lutheran news without the synodical spin.
