Comments on Polluted WELS Blog:
Brett Meyer said...
Anonymous at 4:45PM – in Isaiah 53:11 Christ uses the word ‘many’ and not ‘all’. It’s a clear distinction. ReferenceIsaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. Christ here uses the word ‘all’ in reference to the whole world. He doesn’t use the word ‘many’ as he does in verse 11. The doctrine of Objective Justification repeatedly changes the meaning of Christ’s Words.
Regardless of what you may feel my confession of the atonement does to the Gospel the Scripture verses I’ve used to defend my position are clear and do not allow for justification without faith, the payment of debt without faith, the grace of God without faith or redemption and reconciliation without faith in Christ alone.
You support the doctrine of Objective Justification by teaching the whole unbelieving world has been redeemed by Christ’s atonement. Yet there is no Scriptural proof that God ever declares this.
The Christian Book of Concord also rejects the redemption and reconciliation of unbelievers by faithfully confirming redemption and reconciliation are solely by the gracious gift of faith in Christ alone:
BOC: ”there must be faith in Christ by which we are reconciled to God and first obtain the remission of sin.”
BOC: ”58] … because for Christ’s sake we have a sure and firm reconciliation, if you believe, even though sin inhere in your flesh.”
BOC: ”61]… because by faith alone we receive remission of sins and reconciliation”
http://bookofconcord.org/defense_5_love.php
4] In opposition to both these parties it has been unanimously taught by the other teachers of the Augsburg Confession that Christ is our righteousness not according to His divine nature alone, nor according to His human nature alone, but according to both natures; for He has redeemed, justified, and saved us from our sins as God and man, through His complete obedience; that therefore the righteousness of faith is the forgiveness of sins, reconciliation with God, and our adoption as God’s children only on account of the obedience of Christ, which through faith alone, out of pure grace, is imputed for righteousness to all true believers, and on account of it they are absolved from all their unrighteousness.
http://bookofconcord.org/sd-righteousness.php
“142] But righteousness is faith in the heart. Moreover, sins are redeemed by repentance, i.e., the obligation or guilt is removed, because God forgives those who repent, as it is written in Ezek. 18:21-22. Nor are we to infer from this that He forgives on account of works that follow, on account of alms; but on account of his promise He forgives those who apprehend His promise. Neither do any apprehend His promise, except those who truly believe, and by faith overcome sin and death.”
http://bookofconcord.org/defense_5_love.php
You also take Romans 5 verse out of context when you teach that the whole unbelieving world has been reconciled to God without faith in Christ. You left out the preceding verse nine which is integral to the statement made in verse ten and shows that those reconciled in verse 10 are justified and saved in verse 9 – verse 10 confirms those justified and reconciled in these verses are also saved eternally – “much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.”
Romans 5:9-10
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
UOJ teaches Universalism by its perversion of these verses to teach universal redemption and reconciliation with God for all unbelievers.
In Christ,
Brett Meyer
Regardless of what you may feel my confession of the atonement does to the Gospel the Scripture verses I’ve used to defend my position are clear and do not allow for justification without faith, the payment of debt without faith, the grace of God without faith or redemption and reconciliation without faith in Christ alone.
You support the doctrine of Objective Justification by teaching the whole unbelieving world has been redeemed by Christ’s atonement. Yet there is no Scriptural proof that God ever declares this.
The Christian Book of Concord also rejects the redemption and reconciliation of unbelievers by faithfully confirming redemption and reconciliation are solely by the gracious gift of faith in Christ alone:
BOC: ”there must be faith in Christ by which we are reconciled to God and first obtain the remission of sin.”
BOC: ”58] … because for Christ’s sake we have a sure and firm reconciliation, if you believe, even though sin inhere in your flesh.”
BOC: ”61]… because by faith alone we receive remission of sins and reconciliation”
http://bookofconcord.org/defense_5_love.php
4] In opposition to both these parties it has been unanimously taught by the other teachers of the Augsburg Confession that Christ is our righteousness not according to His divine nature alone, nor according to His human nature alone, but according to both natures; for He has redeemed, justified, and saved us from our sins as God and man, through His complete obedience; that therefore the righteousness of faith is the forgiveness of sins, reconciliation with God, and our adoption as God’s children only on account of the obedience of Christ, which through faith alone, out of pure grace, is imputed for righteousness to all true believers, and on account of it they are absolved from all their unrighteousness.
http://bookofconcord.org/sd-righteousness.php
“142] But righteousness is faith in the heart. Moreover, sins are redeemed by repentance, i.e., the obligation or guilt is removed, because God forgives those who repent, as it is written in Ezek. 18:21-22. Nor are we to infer from this that He forgives on account of works that follow, on account of alms; but on account of his promise He forgives those who apprehend His promise. Neither do any apprehend His promise, except those who truly believe, and by faith overcome sin and death.”
http://bookofconcord.org/defense_5_love.php
You also take Romans 5 verse out of context when you teach that the whole unbelieving world has been reconciled to God without faith in Christ. You left out the preceding verse nine which is integral to the statement made in verse ten and shows that those reconciled in verse 10 are justified and saved in verse 9 – verse 10 confirms those justified and reconciled in these verses are also saved eternally – “much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.”
Romans 5:9-10
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
UOJ teaches Universalism by its perversion of these verses to teach universal redemption and reconciliation with God for all unbelievers.
In Christ,
Brett Meyer
Gregory Jackson said...
I didn't know this blog was about me. I thought the topic was "Polluted WELS."
Brett Meyer said...
Anonymous at 5:17pm,
My comment on this thread July 9th, 2014 6:50am
The one thing a few of us contend is that the WELS holds to a false gospel as taught in their doctrine of Universal Objective Justification. No better time than the present to discuss and establish whether or not that doctrine is in harmony with Scripture and the Lutheran Confessions.
Not only is it a supreme endeavor to confess, discuss and defend the chief article of Justification whenever possible, but it also serves to clarify your options when considering 'So what now?'
If WELS is wrong about their doctrine of UOJ, and I contend that it is, then the LCMS and ELS are also wrong and the majority of churches in their fellowship which adhere to it would be out of consideration for 'So what now?'. Individual confessional churches who teach Christ's chief article faithfully and who are affiliated with those synods would be a consideration as well as independent confessional churches and ELDONA.
We couldn't be more on topic. I am waiting for the thread to open which addresses the called workers of the WELS, ELS, LCMS and ELCA duping the laity into financing Thrivent which is distancing itself from any Lutheran identity at light-speed while using their shared financial resources to support murder by abortion. But that is in-fact another topic.
Brett Meyer
My comment on this thread July 9th, 2014 6:50am
The one thing a few of us contend is that the WELS holds to a false gospel as taught in their doctrine of Universal Objective Justification. No better time than the present to discuss and establish whether or not that doctrine is in harmony with Scripture and the Lutheran Confessions.
Not only is it a supreme endeavor to confess, discuss and defend the chief article of Justification whenever possible, but it also serves to clarify your options when considering 'So what now?'
If WELS is wrong about their doctrine of UOJ, and I contend that it is, then the LCMS and ELS are also wrong and the majority of churches in their fellowship which adhere to it would be out of consideration for 'So what now?'. Individual confessional churches who teach Christ's chief article faithfully and who are affiliated with those synods would be a consideration as well as independent confessional churches and ELDONA.
We couldn't be more on topic. I am waiting for the thread to open which addresses the called workers of the WELS, ELS, LCMS and ELCA duping the laity into financing Thrivent which is distancing itself from any Lutheran identity at light-speed while using their shared financial resources to support murder by abortion. But that is in-fact another topic.
Brett Meyer
Anonymous said...
Mr. Meyer, you do not understand the sound pattern of words. If the many does not mean all, then Christ does not bear the sins of all. If He does not bear all the the sins of men and pay the debt price for all of them, the atonement becomes limited. You seem to okay with this arrangement.
Brett Meyer said...
Anonymous,
It's the doctrine of Objective Justification which abuses the pattern of sound Words.
It is only in the doctrine of UOJ where 'many' means all when it was Christ Himself who dictated the word in the verse to be many.
The imperative to remain faithful to the pattern of sound words is why I posted the quotes from the Christian Book of Concord.
He forgives those who apprehend His promise. Neither do any apprehend His promise, except those who truly believe, and by faith overcome sin and death.”
http://bookofconcord.org/defense_5_love.php
This statement alone rejects the entire false gospel of Objective Justification - and yet I posted three such quotes and there are many, many more.
”there must be faith in Christ by which we are reconciled to God and first obtain the remission of sin.”
”58] … because for Christ’s sake we have a sure and firm reconciliation, if you believe, even though sin inhere in your flesh.”
http://bookofconcord.org/defense_5_love.php
Anonymous states, "If He does not bear all the the sins of men and pay the debt price for all of them, the atonement becomes limited. You seem to okay with this arrangement."
Isaiah 53:6 clearly states that the sins of all men were laid upon Christ. Again, nowhere does the Bible teach that the debt of the unbelieving world was removed by Christ at the atonement. The atonement paid for all sins - no limitation. The doctrine of Objective Justification perverts Christ's Word to equate the atonement with justification. UOJ sees that Christ died for the whole world thus it falsely teaches the whole world must be justified. As already proven by Scripture Justification is by the gracious gift of faith in Christ alone. Therefore the Atonement (Christ's completed payment for the world's sins) isn't the same as Justification (an individual receiving Christ' righteousness through faith and being forgiven thereby). Calvinism makes the same error as UOJ in equating the atonement with Justification. The doctrine of Calvinism sees that only a few are saved (justified) and therefore limits the atonement (Christ's payment of sins) to a few. Both doctrines are false but UOJ goes one step further and separates Christ's justification, the forgiveness of sins, from eternal salvation. A good reason why UOJists should stop mocking Calvinists.
So again, I have retained the pattern of sound words and Many means some - not all. And all means everyone. The BOC confirms this as well. There is one justification which is solely by the gracious gift of faith in Christ alone.
In Christ,
Brett Meyer
It's the doctrine of Objective Justification which abuses the pattern of sound Words.
It is only in the doctrine of UOJ where 'many' means all when it was Christ Himself who dictated the word in the verse to be many.
The imperative to remain faithful to the pattern of sound words is why I posted the quotes from the Christian Book of Concord.
He forgives those who apprehend His promise. Neither do any apprehend His promise, except those who truly believe, and by faith overcome sin and death.”
http://bookofconcord.org/defense_5_love.php
This statement alone rejects the entire false gospel of Objective Justification - and yet I posted three such quotes and there are many, many more.
”there must be faith in Christ by which we are reconciled to God and first obtain the remission of sin.”
”58] … because for Christ’s sake we have a sure and firm reconciliation, if you believe, even though sin inhere in your flesh.”
http://bookofconcord.org/defense_5_love.php
Anonymous states, "If He does not bear all the the sins of men and pay the debt price for all of them, the atonement becomes limited. You seem to okay with this arrangement."
Isaiah 53:6 clearly states that the sins of all men were laid upon Christ. Again, nowhere does the Bible teach that the debt of the unbelieving world was removed by Christ at the atonement. The atonement paid for all sins - no limitation. The doctrine of Objective Justification perverts Christ's Word to equate the atonement with justification. UOJ sees that Christ died for the whole world thus it falsely teaches the whole world must be justified. As already proven by Scripture Justification is by the gracious gift of faith in Christ alone. Therefore the Atonement (Christ's completed payment for the world's sins) isn't the same as Justification (an individual receiving Christ' righteousness through faith and being forgiven thereby). Calvinism makes the same error as UOJ in equating the atonement with Justification. The doctrine of Calvinism sees that only a few are saved (justified) and therefore limits the atonement (Christ's payment of sins) to a few. Both doctrines are false but UOJ goes one step further and separates Christ's justification, the forgiveness of sins, from eternal salvation. A good reason why UOJists should stop mocking Calvinists.
So again, I have retained the pattern of sound words and Many means some - not all. And all means everyone. The BOC confirms this as well. There is one justification which is solely by the gracious gift of faith in Christ alone.
In Christ,
Brett Meyer
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| The personal attacks via email from this UOJ fanatic set a new record in skunkery, which proves he has nothing else lfet in his arsenic arsenal. |
