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| One does not simply have a cow. |
The Black Sheep is right. The boorish behavior of WELS pastors is a direct result of the ministerial education system. If WELS members knew about the things that happen on the campus of Wisconsin Lutheran Seminary, with the knowledge and approval of the professors, they would be absolutely shocked.
I'll write more about this issue in the future.
I'll write more about this issue in the future.
Joel Had a Cow
Not long after telling me not "have a cow", it appears that Joel Lillo has had a cow and deleted all of the comments he has made here. I'll put the best construction on his actions and assume that he has seen the error of his ways and has recanted his non-Lutheran arguments.
The sad thing is, though, that Joel is not on the extreme liberal end of the WELS ministerium. His comments represent the views of the vast majority of WELS pastors.
The sad thing is, though, that Joel is not on the extreme liberal end of the WELS ministerium. His comments represent the views of the vast majority of WELS pastors.
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4 comments:
- Joel said...
- Quoth Greg Jackson:
"Lillo removed his comments from Polluted WELS after getting his lunch handed to him. Too funny. Clearly fortitude is not a side effect of apostasy."
Now I see that you've said the same thing (a little more nicely than Jackson, but then a rabid hyena would probably be nicer than Greg Jackson).
Why did I delete my comments? Is it because of a lack of fortitude? Is it because I had my clock cleaned? Is it because I've seen the errors of my ways?
No. No. and No.
The truth is, I'm tired. I'm tired of being virtually the only WELS pastor on any of these blogs who states the side of those in our circles who use contemporary forms of worship. The weird thing is that I don't use contemporary worship. It's not a good fit for my congregation. I rotate the four orders of service in Christian Worship on a monthly basis. I just believe that the form of worship (as supported by the Luther quote that I used and which I will requote at the end of this post) is a true adiaphora. Doctrine is not.
When I challenged you to find me an example of false doctrine amoung WELS pastors who make use of contemporary worship, I wasn't just referring to the teaching of salvation by grace through faith. I was also talking about proper teaching about the sacraments, close communion, infant baptism, the role of the Holy Spirit in conversion (opposed to making a decision for Christ), and the efficacy of the means of grace. I haven't seen any contemporary worship guys in our circles who even hint that they deny those teachings. I have not even seen an over emphasis of the third use of the law in sermons in CoWo services in the WELS.
Like I said, I'm just tired of being (practically)the only one who's saying this on these "discussional" blog sites. I'm going to let others do it.
With that, I'll let Luther have the last word...
To sum up, this and every other order is so to be used that should any misuse arise in connexion therewith, it should be immediately done away with and another made: just as King Hezekiah broke up and did away with the brazen serpent, which God Himself had commanded to be made, because the children of Israel misused it. Forms and Orders should be for the promotion of faith and the service of love, and not to injury of faith. When they have no more to do, they are forthwith dead and of no more worth; just as, if good coin is counterfeit, for fear of misuse it is abolished and destroyed; or as, when new shoes have become old and dry, we wear them no longer but throw them away and buy new ones. Order is an outward thing. Be it as good as it may, it can fall into misuse. Then it is no longer order but disorder. So no Order has any intrinsic worth of its own, as hitherto the Popish Order has been thought to have. But all Order has its life, worth, strength, and virtue in right use ; else it is worthless and fit for nothing. God's Spirit and grace be with us all. Amen.
In Christ,
Joel Lillo
Buh Bye.
P.S. Why Greg Jackson illustrated the story of my deleting my posts with a picture of his mother is a mystery to me. - Matthias Flach said...
- Joel,
Two questions.
1. If you still stand by your defense of contemporary worship, why delete all of your comments?
2. Did you read my response to that Luther quote the first time you posted it? - OCP said...
- Joel,
Thank you for illustrating my point. Regarding your "challenge," there have been several proofs offered over the years, but they are all explained away, and then ignored. There are examples of talking about "choosing to believe" (a subtle denial of the role of the Spirit in conversion and preservation), and of what God "needs" us to do (a subtle denial of the efficacy of the means of grace). The whole concept that the historic Christian pattern of worship is no longer good enough is a subtle denial of the efficacy of the means of grace (if we trust the Spirit to work through the Word, then why the need to chuck the liturgy, which is nothing but the Word?). I've heard a pastor in our midst express his fear (terror, really) that if he didn't reach someone with the Gospel, that they would be condemned because of what he didn't do. That is a denial of the efficacy of the Word, as well as the doctrine of election.
And there are others. But you can dismiss them all with "don't have a cow," because these errors are subtle. You think that means we should ignore them; I think that makes them even more dangerous. And multiple scriptural warnings, as well as a myriad of examples from the history of the church, would seem to be on my side regarding the danger of the subtle errors.
It's real easy to throw out challenges for proof when you ignore all the proof that is offered.
Any you think you're tired? You're riding along with the direction our Synod seems to be heading. You're jumping on the bandwagon of the celebrities of our Synod. You want to see tired? try being one of the "legalists" or "Pharisees" who dares to question these things...
OCP
And P.S., I'm not sure what, or who, it serves by insulting Greg Jackson on a site that he has nothing to do with. I can't defend some of his theology, but meeting insult with insult seems to inappropriate for a WELS pastor, much less the (apparently) only defender of WELS orthopraxy. - Brett Meyer said...
- "Lillo removed his comments from Polluted WELS after getting his lunch handed to him. Too funny. Clearly fortitude is not a side effect of apostasy."
This was my comment submitted to Ichabod The Glory Has Departed. I stand by it.
In Christ,
Brett Meyer 
- Anonymous said...
- I don't know why Pr. Lillo feels that he needs to constantly insult people on various blogs. He has done this many times over the years. It makes him look very childish. I would have serious doubts about him if he would be called as my Pastor.
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| This is a picture of my mother when she left for college at the age of 18. The photo in the earlier post illustrated the humor of posting, then deleting. |
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| Lillo is from the Love Circuit. The only obscene emails I have received were sent from Fox Valley and Martin Luther College. |
