Behold How the UOJists Love One Another

Am I the only former student at Ft. Wayne to read this book?

Cited by Dr. Robert Preus in Justification and Rome.

Pr. Don Kirchner (Kirchner) Senior Member Username: Kirchner Post Number: 3624 Registered: 11-2001	Posted on Tuesday, December 29, 2015 - 8:41 am:       "I actually think this conversation is getting somewhat ridiculous." I agree. And the never-ending familial shots at the ELS get boring. I did course work at Luther in St. Paul toward their equivalent of an STM. Took some fine courses from Nestingen. But the drive from Thief River Falls to St Paul was too much for me. Had I been able to do online work as offered by ILT I might have continued. Congratulations on your STM, Pr. Webber.
David Jay Webber (Djw) Advanced Member Username: Djw Post Number: 821 Registered: 12-2004	Posted on Tuesday, December 29, 2015 - 9:02 am:       Thanks. James Nestingen was one of my professors through ILT, too.
Pastor Rolf David Preus (Rolf) Senior Member Username: Rolf Post Number: 8685 Registered: 5-2001	Posted on Tuesday, December 29, 2015 - 10:23 am:       Revs. Kirchner and Webber know that seeking an STM from a seminary does not identity one with the theological posture of that seminary. Since this is the case we may safely ignore any particularities of a specific case, such as the one under discussion, because we have already determined that seeking the STM degree from an institution does not join one with the confession of that institution. This appears quite reasonable, but it is precisely the specifics of this case that require a different conclusion. The “Institutional Learning Outcomes” of ILT are written to give the impression that they are advocates of traditional Lutheran confessional theology. The chairman of the board of the institution is a well-known and respected (though theologically incompetent) leader of the “missional” wing of the LCMS, that is, those for whom confessional Lutheran orthodoxy is an impediment to the mission of the church. Perhaps Rev. Kirchner feels put upon for his advanced studies at Luther at the feet of Førdeites and other assorted errorists. How else to explain his gratuitous attack on my family? Well, speaking of family, in my father’s generation of Preus pastors there were precisely two – Dad and Uncle Jack – who were able to sift through the heterodoxy prevalent at Luther back in the forties and come out as confessional Lutherans. No Don, I’m not knocking you for attending graduate classes at Luther. But you should concede the danger of studying at the feet of the heterodox. And Jay, you should know better than to give credibility to this new faux-Lutheran seminary by seeking from them an STM. Pastor Rolf David Preus

***

GJ - I have a lot of respect for Jack and Robert Preus in their fight against the easy-going mainline direction of Lutherans. They did a lot of worthwhile publishing and engaged in public fights against the errors of their denominations.

Jackson Bird Paradise Shelf Shattered by Wind. Birds Ankle-Deep in Food - Angels Unaware

I looked into our rain barrels and saw 17 inches of rain in them. Even when the rain was subsiding, the mist continued into the evening.

War Eagle Creek flooded and I saw a small creek raging with brown flood waters as I passed by. The mill is in the middle of the creek and found itself isolated by the unusual weather, which followed a long stretch of warm sunny days, shirtsleeve weather in the afternoon.

The top shelf of the Jackson Bird Paradise feeder shattered in the winds, perhaps thrown against the tree. I continued to feed the birds during heavy rains, because they were around the feeders looking for more fuel to keep themselves warm.

This morning, with no water frozen in the street, the birds were in the feeders and on the swing, browsing in the gardens and hinting about breakfast. After Sassy had a great long walk, I gave the birds a generous selection of sunflower seeds and corn kernels.

Birds appreciate food most when it is hard to gather. Squirrels will take the choicest food and discard anything less than primo - until cold, ice, and rain come. Then seeds frozen to the window ledge are worth prying off, one by one.

Those satisfied by materialism will find little of use in the Gospel, bearing the cross, or trusting in the Creator for everything, especially their spiritual needs. But those who have weathered the storms find everything in the Word delightful, since they hunger and thirst for righteousness (forgiveness through faith) and treasure the Treasure offered in the Means of Grace.

SpenerQuest Misses the Central Issue, But Our Readers Understand

Lito Cruz I am puzzled with the point Rolf is making against Webber because in UOJ every one is already forgiven even without faith or prior to faith, so if you have been forgiven without faith on anything, then you are still forgiven even if you believe in false doctrine of women's ordination. Since you are saved without faith, you're saved with or without it in the future. Rolf and Webber remind me of two atheists I saw who were in conflict with one another.

Keith Shedron A fine point has been made on LQ. Rolf claims that Jack Kilcrease is a "good theologian", yet Kilcrease teaches at ILT. And Webber is attacked, by Rolf, for taking a degree from ILT. Hhmmm... But this takes the focus off the central error that they all hold, which is an anti-sacramental, faithless justification, apart from any imputation of the righteousness of Christ.

McCain and Cascione reproduced the Preus essay,
smacking their lips with glee.
Edward Preuss left the Lutheran Church
and became extremely influential as a Roman Catholic editor.

 

***

GJ - One atheist forum on the Net was shut down completely because the participants were so nasty with each other.

Dr. Lito Cruz and Keith Shedron have summarized the current debate on LutherQuest quite well. 

I am constantly infuriated with the LCMS, WELS, and ELS leaders working with ELCA, conveting ELCA, emulating ELCA, and yet pretending to be superior to ELCA.

They all drink from the same Stygian stream of universal forgiveness and salvation without Christ, because Christ and His grace only come to us through the Word and Sacraments.

WELS, the ELS, and Missouri are no different from ELCA in:

• Claiming they are "Confessional Lutherans."
• Knowing nothing about the Book of Concord.
• Despising what the Confessions teach.
• Opposing justification by faith while promoting universal forgiveness and salvation without faith - as the Gospel.
• Inviting false teachers to their schools while excommunicating faithful pastors.

ELCA is especially repugnant to all believers because ELCA:

1. Openly mocks the truth of the Scriptures and considers the Bible to be mythical.
2. Supports abortion and funds abortion (for any reason) in its health plan.
3. Ordains and marries homosexuals - but then, so do Missouri, WELS, and the ELS.
4. Ordains women - but so do Missouri, WELS, and the ELS. Women consecrate the elements, baptize, you name it. WELS' Brug - that is fine, but WELS is not ready for an open declaration yet.
5. Sits on the lap of the Antichrist, the Pope, and begs that terms of reconciliation be kind and gentle.

If there is ever a gold medal in denominational Olympics awarded for hypocrisy, WELS and Missouri and the ELS will vie for the honor. 

Rolf Preus would wear the gold medal proudly. He imagines that Kilcrease, raised in WELS but trained in ELCA's college and seminary, is a fine theologian. Moreover, Kilcrease is not content to teach part-time at ILT's union seminary. Kilcrease also teaches the papists at a Roman Catholic college - Our Lady of Sorrows, something like that.

Jay Webber Continues To Confuse His UOJ Buddies with His Solemn Declarations. ILT Is a Pan-Denominational Exaltation of Unionism and Women's Ordination

James Warble (Warble) Intermediate Member Username: Warble Post Number: 279 Registered: 1-2013	Posted on Monday, December 28, 2015 - 8:14 pm:       Rev. Webber, is it OK for a confessional Lutheran pastor to attend an ELCA seminary for an STM? If not, why not and why is attending ILT any different?
David Jay Webber (Djw) Advanced Member Username: Djw Post Number: 820 Registered: 12-2004	Posted on Monday, December 28, 2015 - 8:39 pm:       An STM degree is an academic degree, in which theology is learned as an academic discipline. It is not a professional degree, as is the MDiv, in which someone learns how to be a pastor. I think it is OK for a Confessional Lutheran pastor to study for an STM degree in any institution that he thinks will offer him a good academic education in the fields he wants to study. That might include an ELCA seminary. It might also include a seminary of the Episcopal Church, such as Nashotah House, where the current president of the ELS seminary got an STM degree. It might include seminaries or universities affiliated with a wide array of church bodies. Again, an STM degree is different from an MDiv degree. The range of possible options is much greater, since one's theological position as a pastor is not really seen by most people to be aligned with where one receives an STM, but rather with where one receives an MDiv. Or at least that's my opinion.
Paul Jecklin (Paul_jecklin) Junior Member Username: Paul_jecklin Post Number: 50 Registered: 2-2015	Posted on Monday, December 28, 2015 - 8:49 pm:       Jack Kilcrease is a member of the ILT faculty. "He is LCMS. He's a good theologian." Jay Webber received a diploma from ILT and . . .
Simon Reynolds (Simon) Member Username: Simon Post Number: 183 Registered: 1-2005	Posted on Monday, December 28, 2015 - 9:07 pm:       It seems to me that Pastor Webber weighed the pros and cons of attending an institution which doesn't speak with one voice on the whole counsel of God and came to the conclusion that the benefits outweighed the downsides including inferences some individuals might draw regarding his theological "soundness" by attending ITL. It strikes me as an odd time to take him task for having gained a degree from ITL. What is the value of burdening his conscience at this juncture? Does the need to be right trump every other consideration? I believe I hear the sound of resounding gongs and clanging cymbals.
Pastor Rolf David Preus (Rolf) Senior Member Username: Rolf Post Number: 8682 Registered: 5-2001	Posted on Monday, December 28, 2015 - 9:19 pm:       Mr. Reynolds, to argue love against orthodoxy and making an orthodox confession is both loveless and heterodox. Pastor Rolf David Preus
Simon Reynolds (Simon) Member Username: Simon Post Number: 184 Registered: 1-2005	Posted on Monday, December 28, 2015 - 9:23 pm:       Pastor Preus, I rejoice in the knowledge that you are not a unionist and that you continually strive to make an orthodox confession in what you say from the pulpit and what you write. Thanks be to God!
Pastor Rolf David Preus (Rolf) Senior Member Username: Rolf Post Number: 8683 Registered: 5-2001	Posted on Monday, December 28, 2015 - 10:41 pm:       Thanks, Mr. Reynolds, for your kind and gracious words. Pastor Rolf David Preus
Barb Nelson (Barbnelson) Member Username: Barbnelson Post Number: 76 Registered: 9-2012	Posted on Monday, December 28, 2015 - 11:48 pm:       Isn't a pastor who is a part of the LCMS calling into question the unionism of an ILT degree like the pot calling the cauldron black?
Pastor Rolf David Preus (Rolf) Senior Member Username: Rolf Post Number: 8684 Registered: 5-2001	Posted on Tuesday, December 29, 2015 - 12:45 am:       No, it is pointing out that the tired old accusation of unionism from the W/ELS to the LCMS is getting pretty hollow. I wouldn't attend an ELCA light institution that promotes women's ordination. I got my STM from CTS in Ft. Wayne. Pastor Rolf David Preus
Daniel Gorman (Heinrich) Senior Member Username: Heinrich Post Number: 3020 Registered: 11-2004	Posted on Tuesday, December 29, 2015 - 12:58 am:       Pr. Preus: "Church laws? What about God? You know, the One who says it is shameful for a woman to be a pastor? The ILT prepares women to be pastors. That's wrong." Has ILT said that it prepares women to be pastors? If so, that is an example of a false teaching that must be condemned publicly by all Christians in word and in deed. If, on the other hand, ILT simply offers its degree program to anyone who is academically qualified, that is not false teaching. ILT must not condemned for a liberal admission standard. A woman who pursues an academic ministerial degree is not sinning unless her intent is to qualify herself for an office in the church or church auxiliary that involves teaching, usurping authority over men, or becoming a minister. It is not incumbent upon ILT to determine whether the woman's motivation is godly or devilish. ILT is not a church or church auxiliary.

***

GJ -  When ILT came up repeatedly on Facebook, I began looking into it and posting about the school. That is the pain and pleasure of social media. The institutions and pastors want to use the leveraging power of browsers and big data, so they can become prominent on the Net with relatively little effort. I started blogs for a tiny college and got them to 1,000 views in short order - which astonished them - and 10,000 views shortly after. Later they complained that all the college pictures posted on the Net were from those blogs. I said, "Yes, of course. If you continue your own new blog, yours will do the same."

I have 4.25 million total views now and 13,600 posts, so I have heard the same observation about Lutheran graphics of all kinds.

The end result of social media (Facebook, LinkedIn, Twitter, blogs, websites) is to leave information and graphics for everyone to see. When Stetzer mocked Lutherans after getting two invitations to speak (LCMS and WELS), I posted the truth several times and he was dis-invited. WELS denied the invitation, of course, but I verified it with Stetzer's tweets, website, and posted calendar. Haha.

If those people who spend all their time posting on SpenerQuest would do some research about ILT, they would discover:

1. The graduate faculty is mostly ELCA trained and ELCA-oriented in their work. That makes sense because the founder spent a good deal of time teaching for ELCA colleges - Grand View, and Bethany in Lindsborg.
2. "The my (sic) two very different careers here in LinkedIn testify to the two paths I have walked. Interestingly, being an effective President of a Lutheran institution of higher learning demands one does two things: One must have both a theological/educational background and the business/financial one." Dennis Bielfeldt
3. The head of ILT fashions himself as a Confessional Lutheran and a CEO on his second LinkedIn account. "CEO and Provost: Responsible for Building the Institute of Lutheran Theology, overseeing all staff and all budgets. Specialties: Confessional Lutheran Theology
4. ILT conducts itself as a denominational seminary, not as a strictly academic venture. They boast about preparing women for ministry in ELCA, have chapel series, etc.
5. ILT "sends out" its graduates, including Jay Webber, sounding very ecclesiastical rather than purely academic. "September 29th will see the graduation of the first student from ILT to obtain its Master of Sacred Theology degree:  Rev. David Jay Webber.  He will be meeting with Rev. Swenson in Minneapolis to receive his diploma during that mid-week service." There is a close connection between ILT's work and various ministries and denominations, so ILT "sends out" to ELCA and the ELS. Notre Dame has its own seminary for its own Holy Cross priests, separate from its graduate program in theology. Notre Dame does not "send out" MAs and PhDs.
6. ILT is quite the ecclesiastical organization in training for pan-denominational work in the cities and foreign missions. "But, we need your help. We thank the Lutheran Church of the Master Foundation in Omaha, Nebraska for its gift to help us in the education of immigrant and international pastors through its Elijah Project Ministry Certificate Program. If you believe God is calling you to do the same, please contact us. We are moving towards our goal of $75,000 to $100,000 this year to help our Educational Ministries reach out both in North America and around the world."
7. ILT affirms and promotes women's ordination and usurping male authority while offering chapel services. See below. In eight years of study at Yale and Notre Dame, I never attended a chapel service for the program, because none existed. Graduation was not a "service" as described by ILT, but a ceremony.

Pastor Becky Hand, an M.Div. Graduate of the Institute of Lutheran Theology delivered the sermon on Genesis 1:1 in TX 10-4-15.

About Us

We have students, staff, faculty and friends within various church bodies including Lutheran Congregations in Mission for Christ (LCMC), the Canadian Association of Lutheran Congregations (CALC), the Augsburg Lutheran Churches (ALC), the North American Lutheran Church (NALC), the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA), the Association of Free Lutheran Churches (AFLC) and the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod (LCMS). All are welcome who affirm the centrality of the Cross of Jesus Christ, the authority of the Holy Scriptures, and the truth of the Lutheran Confessions as a faithful explication of Scripture.

ELCA-Episcopal leaders in North America
celebrated their oneness in apostasy.
One of these is a man.