The Glory Has Departed


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Saturday, September 3, 2016

Jay Webber versus John Parlow.
But UOJ and Church Growth Play for the Same Team

The Emperor: But I have to address one issue. You Jar-Jar! 
JarJar Binks: Mesa? 
The Emperor: Yes! Despite being an idiot, despite failing at nearly every task, despite being disliked by nearly everyone, you have managed to make it almost to the finals. I cannot let this go on. I cannot imagine you working at my side. 
JarJar Binks: But wait! Mesa gave you complete control of the senate. Yousa have ultimate power now because of mesa. 
The Emperor: Yes, that was a brilliant gamble on your part. I never understand how you pulled that off. But your usefulness to me has ended. You performed that task thinking you were doing good. I just can't condone that. I am! Evil you know

When discussing with individuals who question that the Bible is truly the Word of God but rather only written by men, what resources and background specifically can be shared?

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Comments
Paul Webber There is no way to prove that the Bible is God's Word apart from the fact that the Bible claims to be. One WILL believe that the Bible is God's true Word as a result of being brought to faith in God. It's the same as believing in the creation account from Genesis. One can believe, on his or her own, that SOMETHING created the universe, but there's no reason why someone would believe the Biblical account to be true apart from faith. Hebrews 11:3.
John Parlow Paul, what you say is true. But you can build a bridge to share Jesus using apologetics.
Jeff Samelson Key consideration: Are these individuals unbelievers, or do they claim to be Christians? The way you approach this question will be different depending on who they are.
John Parlow She is asking the question from Hong Kong so my assumption is this is the person who is a non-Christian.
Paul Webber That was my assumption too. In reaching out to people, just speak law and Gospel to them. Their belief in the innerancy and inspiration of Scripture will come in due time, God willing
Like323 hrs
John Parlow With all due respect, I'm not sure you've ever talk to an atheist or an aggressive evolutionist. I've spent over 30 years speaking to both.
Like23 hrs
John Parlow Law and gospel presentation is of vital importance, but in the initial discussion I'm trying to find a plain of thought we can start at.
Like23 hrs
Paul Webber I see that you didn't think there was much respect due
Like623 hrs
Nate Seelow Holly actually lives in California. She's on a trip and she just arrived in Hong Kong from Southern Asia a few days ago. (I know this sounds stalker-ish, but Holly's a HS classmate of mine and I'm personal friends with her on FB).
Like23 hrs
David Jay Webber John Parlow: "With all due respect, I'm not sure you've ever talk[ed] to an atheist or an aggressive evolutionist. I've spent over 30 years speaking to both."

That is, I must say, one of the most self-righteous and judgmental remarks I have ever read 
in this group. On what basis do you presume to suggest that your brother pastor Paul Webber does not know how to engage atheists, evolutionists, or others who question whether the Bible is the Word of God, in conversations about the Christian faith and the Christian Scriptures; or that he is ill-equipped to do so? I wonder if YOU really know how to do this. Did you spend several of your growing-up years in the former Soviet Union, where the dehumanizing impact of Godless, Darwinian communism still lingered in the culture, and in the minds and hearts of many? Are you serving in a subculture in the U.S. (i.e. Utah) that is filled to the brim with people who are utterly confused about what Scripture is, where it comes from, and how and why Scripture is authoritative?

I happen to know that Pastor Webber, in his ministry, often employs an array of apologetic arguments in laying out the difference between the genuine Scriptures and the contrived Mormon Scriptures. He deals with his share of atheists and evolutionists, too. Mormonism, in its darker side, tends to produce quite a few of those, who think all religion is the same, and that it is all like Mormonism, which they have come to hate. Faithful pastoral care, and careful instruction - in the context of inviting people into the redeemed community of the true church, and not just as an intellectual exercise - brings light and liberation to those who are in such spiritual bondage.

As a liturgical and sacramental pastor, and as a faithful proclaimer of law and gospel, Pastor Webber preaches into people, and sacramentally seals to people, the regenerating and justifying power of the Bible's message, in a way that transcends and overcomes the kind of intellectual excuses that are often thrown up by people who are groping for reasons not to repent of their sins, and not to submit to the authority of God in their lives. The divine voice that speaks to the conscience in the faithful application of the Christ-centered law-gospel message of the Bible, breaks through that kind of willful human defiance against God, in a way that apologetic arguments in themselves never can.

We know that the God of the Bible is real when we encounter that God in the person of his Son, and in the soothing voice of his Son, as Christ speaks life into our death, and light into our darkness, by means of his Holy Absolution and his Holy Supper. To know Christ in these healing and hope-filled ways, is to know as divinely true the inscripturated Word that testifies to Christ and carries Christ to us.

Like521 hrs
John Parlow Not at all. The discussion is not about you or me. It was about how to bridge the gap with someone who doesn't believe the Bible is God's Word.
Like23 hrsEdited
Aaron Odya Holly Hanneman, I'm going to private message you on this one.
Like323 hrs
Holly Hanneman Thanks everyone for any insights. I do live in CA and this conversation is with a strong willed very educated atheist also living in CA. He's also a trained lawyer and seems to have a thought out argument for everything ! 
Like23 hrsEdited
Aaron Odya I just sent it. You might have to check your message requests folder to see if it is in there.
Like123 hrs
Kathy Burnett I give you credit! Good luck!
Like15 hrs
Abby Kroken Hello, also a resident of California. I think we're quite near each other, actually. 

I have a handful of friends who are atheists, and one in particular liked to argue about it in the past. The idea that served me well is to reiterate that I didn't c
...See More

Like27 hrs
John Parlow Just PM me.
Like23 hrs
Susan Waldhuetter I was always taught by our pastors that the power of God is in the Word and not in any use of apologetics that mere man can put forth. God's Word- Law and Gospel, the story of grace - is the faith creator through the Holy Spirit, not what man says to attempt to pave the way.
Like122 hrs
Ann Behrs Holly, I anxiously wanted to respond to your post, however realized I knew nothing about the person you are witnessing to. YOU are the one God has placed in this person's life and have the amazing opportunity to witness to him. I envy you !!! In ...See More
Like112 hrs
Aaron Odya Mentioned that book in my private message 😃
Like12 hrs
Ann Behrs Aaron Odya I also see that Chap 7 is "A Lawyer's Case for Christianity: An Apologetic for the Tough-Minded". Wish I had more time to finish the book. Am only using the table of contents right now. I've been trying to get through the whole OT first....See More
Like11 hrs
Ann Behrs Oops - posted in error before I was done. Chapter 6 is titled "Law, Lawyers, Lutheranism, and the Legal Defense of the Biblical Gospel". It might give you some insight. Are you looking for actual tract literature to share? What do you mean by "background"?
Like112 hrs
Ann Behrs Regarding tracts - has anyone had the chance to read the tract/pamphlet "Why Trust the Bible" put out by Rose Publishing.
Like11 hrs
Jeff Samelson I second the recommendation of Craig Parton's book(s); he himself would probably recommend resources from John Warwick Montgomery (also a lawyer), perhaps the ablest Lutheran apologist living right now (the guy is brilliant!). You can find multiple interview with him at issuesetc.org, or just google his name and probably find various essays, articles, videos, etc.

Christ-Centered, Cross-Focused Talk Radio
ISSUESETC.ORG
Like39 hrs
Aaron Odya I would be shocked if he didn't recommend Montgomery
Like19 hrs
William Stiefel Holly Hanneman...good question...and a situation we meet more and more as people are convinced thru every means Satan can muster: education, print and visual media, etc that God is an invention and an idea disconnected with reality and "science". I hav...See More
Like27 hrs
Aaron Odya I might go one step further and not spend any time at all discussing evolution. If any sort of apologetic would be used, I would stick to a resurrection apologetic. At least that way you have the opportunity to include the gospel message. But good p...See More
Like16 hrs
Aaron Odya One additional area that might help you in your discussions with your friend, Holly, is getting to know more about his family background. A brother in the ministry shared an intriguing article regarding atheists, showing how many of history's prominent atheists had poor/no father figure in their lives. I will attempt to find that article and post it here.
Like6 hrs
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 Parlow was one of many WELS critters who attended the
Andy Stanley conference in Atlanta, where they worshiped
with the Babtist gay activist.



Pitting an ELCA STM against Parlow's D.Min.

World missions, so-called, is good business.
The Schwan Foundation matched funds to build a church in the Ukraine
in honor of Floyd Luther Stolzenburg's Masonic congregation in Columbus.