| Author | Message |
    
Pastor Rolf David Preus (Rolf)
Senior Member
Username: Rolf
Post Number: 9776
Registered: 5-2001 |
| Posted on Tuesday, June 19, 2018 - 9:38 am: |    |
The Book of Concord was published in 1580.
Pastor Rolf David Preus |
Joe Krohn (Jekster)
Advanced Member
Username: Jekster
Post Number: 569
Registered: 4-2011 |
| Posted on Tuesday, June 19, 2018 - 9:56 am: | |
"If they color their translation by what they confess about scripture, EHV will be the most accurate English translation ever published."
Mr. Gorman; if a translation is colored by one's confession, it's hardly accurate. It's more like the tail wagging the dog. |
Steve Ames (Sames)
Senior Member
Username: Sames
Post Number: 1635
Registered: 11-2004 |
| Posted on Tuesday, June 19, 2018 - 2:42 pm: | |
Daniel Gorman: “WELS translators have only one scriptural confession, the 1584 Book of Concord. If they color their translation by what they confess about scripture, EHV will be the most accurate English translation ever published.”
Mr. Gorman, then the translation would be a failure. However, perhaps you are thinking the EHV is faithfully translating the content of Scripture which is what the Book of Concord confesses? As the translators in the below referenced article states: “The Formula of Concord is not sectarian. It is catholic and ecumenical because it promotes the unity of the church by faithfully confessing the content of Scripture.”
A “Lutheran” Translation?? Pitfalls and Potential
http://wartburgproject.org/wp-content/uploads/2015 /05/A_Lutheran_Translation-Pitfalls_and_Potentials .pdf
It would be sectarian or would at the very least be perceived as sectarian.
… If we can produce a product that would find some acceptance among other Lutherans and other denominations, rather than being sectarian, the project might instead establish some common ground.
But the main reason that our translation is not sectarian is that our translators are not sectarians. They are confessional Lutherans. They understand that while it might be sectarian to translate the Bible, “Jesus said this is my true body,” it is not sectarian to confess, “This is the true body and blood of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.” The translators understand the difference between presenting a Lutheran understanding of Scripture in a confessional statement and importing that interpretation into the words of a translation.
What determines whether or not a translation is sectarian is not how many people produced it or how many people use it but how faithful it is to the divinely intended meaning of Scripture. The Vulgate, which was used by millions of people for centuries and was the Bible which nourished Luther, was sectarian when it translated the first gospel promise, “She [Mary] will crush the serpent’s head.” When Luther revised the Vulgate and translated, “He [Christ] will crush the serpent’s head,” his one-man translation was not sectarian but truly catholic. The Formula of Concord is not sectarian. It is catholic and ecumenical because it promotes the unity of the church by faithfully confessing the content of Scripture. The same would be true of a translation made by confessional Lutherans. A translation made by confessional Lutherans would not be “a Lutheran translation” which introduced a Lutheran bias into the text. It would be a translation by Lutherans which honestly set forth the meaning of the text. … |
Daniel Gorman (Heinrich)
Senior Member
Username: Heinrich
Post Number: 3698
Registered: 11-2004 |
| Posted on Tuesday, June 19, 2018 - 4:11 pm: | |
Steve Ames: "However, perhaps you are thinking the EHV is faithfully translating the content of Scripture which is what the Book of Concord confesses?"
No person is a blank slate. If the Book of Concord doesn't color the WELS translation, something else will.
If the WELS translators were to discover a passage that disagrees with the Book of Concord, I believe they would humbly and prayerfully examine the text very closely to determine where they had erred. If they were unable to find their mistake, they would abandon their translation project (or their confession).
Finishing the Wartburg Project is, therefore, prima facie evidence that the Book of Concord has colored the WELS translation. |
Pastor Rolf David Preus (Rolf)
Senior Member
Username: Rolf
Post Number: 9778
Registered: 5-2001 |
| Posted on Tuesday, June 19, 2018 - 5:23 pm: | |
Does anyone know where I can get copies of An American Translation at a reasonable price?
Pastor Rolf David Preus |
Steve Ames (Sames)
Senior Member
Username: Sames
Post Number: 1636
Registered: 11-2004 |
| Posted on Tuesday, June 19, 2018 - 6:04 pm: | |
Daniel Gorman: “If the Book of Concord doesn't color the WELS translation, something else will.”
If you must have something in your words to “color” the EHV translation it would be the belief that the Bible is God’s inspired inerrant Word as taught by what WELS folks call the Wauwatosa Theology. The Wauwatosa Theology is the view that the Scriptures should be historically and grammatically interpreted on the basis of the original Hebrew and Greek texts, with no dogmatic or ecclesiastical presuppositions. Daniel, you appear to be making the Book of Concord a dogmatic presupposition.
Daniel Gorman: “If the WELS translators were to discover a passage that disagrees with the Book of Concord,”
What you are suggesting would have been very disturbing to the early WELS fathers known as the Northwestern Lutherans who lead the Wisconsin Synod's break with the Prussian Union mission societies who had been providing support. Nowhere does the use of the Bible by the Book of Concord misuse or contradict the true meaning of God’s Word. Just where can one image any Bible passage that disagrees with the Book of Concord or where the Book of Concord disagrees with any Bible passage?
Just for clarity, translation project is complete. |
Steven Thomas Karp (Steven_karp)
New member
Username: Steven_karp
Post Number: 21
Registered: 5-2015 |
| Posted on Tuesday, June 19, 2018 - 7:44 pm: | |
I checked on Amazon, and "Good" used copies of "An American Translation"can be had in the $10 range. Is That reasonable? By the way, you might have to poke around a bit since Amazon has different editions in different places. |
Pastor Rolf David Preus (Rolf)
Senior Member
Username: Rolf
Post Number: 9779
Registered: 5-2001 |
| Posted on Wednesday, June 20, 2018 - 12:38 am: | |
Thanks for the information. I'll check it out.
Pastor Rolf David Preus |
Daniel Gorman (Heinrich)
Senior Member
Username: Heinrich
Post Number: 3699
Registered: 11-2004 |
| Posted on Wednesday, June 20, 2018 - 6:05 am: | |
Steve Ames: "Daniel, you appear to be making the Book of Concord a dogmatic presupposition."
My only presupposition is that scripture "is the only true standard by which all teachers and doctrines are to be judged." FC;SD;OF THE COMPREHENSIVE SUMMARY, FOUNDATION, RULE, AND STANDARD
Steve Ames: "Just where can one image any Bible passage that disagrees with the Book of Concord or where the Book of Concord disagrees with any Bible passage?"
A few years ago, I thought I had at long last found an inconsistency between scripture and the BOC. But there was no inconsistency! I had erred by relying an incorrect English translation of the BOC. I am not aware of any doctrinal conflict between the bible and the Book of Concord in their original languages.
Steve Ames: "Just for clarity, translation project is complete."
If the WELS translators did find an apparent inconsistency between the bible and the BOC in the course of their work, I am confident they recognized and corrected their error. The WELS translators would not publish a bible that contradicts their confession.
"Since now, in the sight of God and of all Christendom [the entire Church of Christ], we wish to testify to those now living and those who shall come after us that this declaration herewith presented concerning all the controverted articles aforementioned and explained, and no other, is our faith, doctrine, and confession, in which we are also willing, by God’s grace, to appear with intrepid hearts before the judgment-seat of Jesus Christ, and give an account of it; and that we will neither privately nor publicly speak or write anything contrary to it. . ." FC,SD,XII |
Pastor Rolf David Preus (Rolf)
Senior Member
Username: Rolf
Post Number: 9780
Registered: 5-2001 |
| Posted on Wednesday, June 20, 2018 - 10:47 am: | |
The Scripture alone principle does not disallow adopting a scripturally based norm of doctrine such as the Creeds and the Lutheran Confessions. The doctrinally binding authority of these confessions derives from the Scriptures alone. Inasmuch as they are already normed by the norming norm (the Holy Scriptures), they, as the normed norm serve as a sound guide in the interpretation of the Holy Scriptures.
Does this make the Lutheran Confessions "a dogmatic presupposition"? No, it makes the Lutheran Confessions a dogmatic conclusion, which then becomes a guide for us Lutherans as we interpret the Bible.
Mr. Gorman correctly notes, "No person is a blank slate. If the Book of Concord doesn't color the WELS translation, something else will." The problem with the Wauwatosa theologians is that with their arrogant dismissal of the theological method of centuries of Lutherans as "father's theology," it bequeathed to the Wisconsin Synod a father's theology of its own, saddling them with a sectarian view of church and ministry that has caused them no end of trouble. Rejecting the "fathers' theology" of the seventeenth century and adopting its own "fathers' theology" of the early twentieth century, the WELS finds itself in an untenable position on matters (such as the plain meaning of AC V and AC XIV) that were settled among us Lutherans for hundreds of years before anybody had heard of Wauwatosa, Wisconsin.
Pastor Rolf David Preus |
Steve Schmidt (Sschmidt)
Intermediate Member
Username: Sschmidt
Post Number: 285
Registered: 3-2017 |
| Posted on Wednesday, June 20, 2018 - 11:40 am: | |
I thought the WELS rejected Wauwatosa theology in 1929? I'm missing something. |
Steve Schmidt (Sschmidt)
Intermediate Member
Username: Sschmidt
Post Number: 286
Registered: 3-2017 |
| Posted on Wednesday, June 20, 2018 - 11:53 am: | |
https://pastorjameskellerman.blogspot.com/2011/08/ wauwawhat-part-three.html
Also, does anybody know why August Pieper was, according to the above blog, "the Darth Vader of the Wisconsin Synod?" |
Pastor Rolf David Preus (Rolf)
Senior Member
Username: Rolf
Post Number: 9782
Registered: 5-2001 |
| Posted on Wednesday, June 20, 2018 - 12:03 pm: | |
No, the WELS celebrates the Wauwatosa Theology. It did take some time before it was incorporated into their official statements. While the Wauwatosans taught their new teaching on church and ministry one hundred years ago, the WELS didn't formally adopt it until 1969. For years, the WELS and the LCMS had pretty much the same practice. In fact, some said that Missouri's practice followed Wisconsin's doctrine and Wisconsin's practice followed Missouri's doctrine.
The Wauwatosa take on sola Scriptura has definitely affected Wisconsin's use of the Lutheran Confessions as a norm. While formally subscribing unconditionally, in practice they do not always follow the Confessional paradigm. This becomes very apparent on church and ministry.
On the other hand, Wisconsin's opposition to unionism is stronger than Missouri's, and the WELS seems to be more willing to stand up against cultural norms than is Missouri. On hermeneutical issues, the WELS stays with the historic Lutheran position on such things as rectilinear messianic prophecy, whereas Missouri has caved into the Reformed influence on this. I don't want my criticism of the Wauwatosans misunderstood. They were excellent theologians. The WELS has a high regard for the Holy Scriptures and does a good job of training their pastors.
Pastor Rolf David Preus |
Pastor Rolf David Preus (Rolf)
Senior Member
Username: Rolf
Post Number: 9783
Registered: 5-2001 |
| Posted on Wednesday, June 20, 2018 - 12:06 pm: | |
Also, the WELS affirmation of objective justification and its willingness to stand firm on this is commendable. While Missouri appears incapable of disciplining those who deny it, the WELS has done so to their credit. I speak specifically of a former WELS pastor who is now a member of ELDoNA, an erring sect that broke away from Missouri, rejecting Missouri's teaching on the ministry and justification.
Pastor Rolf David Preus |
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