Michael R. Frederick (Mikefr) New member Username: Mikefr Post Number: 8 Registered: 3-2015 |
There is a You Tube channel called "Ask the Pastor", created by an Eldona Pastor who answers questions about Eldona's theological views. In a video called "Difference between ELDONA and WELS", he states that the WELS believes in Universal Objective Justification, saying that UOJ means that Justification and Atonement happened simultaneously at the cross. In other words, the entire world was justified at that time, that your sins were forgiven before they were ever committed. Is that a correct characterization of Objective Justification? BTW he speaks of UOJ as being the same thing as Objective Justification. Is that true? I recognize that much has been written on this site about this topic and about Eldon's rejection of objective Justification. I'm sorry if my question is duplication of this topic - I'd just like to get a quick answer to these questions. Thank You! | ||
     Alan Lubeck (1431) Senior Member Username: 1431 Post Number: 1767 Registered: 11-2004 |
You might ask the LCMS along with the WELS, since both synods are in agreement on this issue. Much more important than what any synod teaches is what the Bible has to say: "The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!" (John 1:29 ESV)------ Here you have a choice-go with confessional Lutheran and believe the text, or go with ELDONA and the Calvinists and pervert the meaning of the text in accordance with human reason to say "the world" only means some people. GJ - Justification by Faith is Calvinism. No, really. He just said so, and Wilken agrees, so it must be so. "...that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation." 2 Corinthians 5:19 ESV----Again who do you trust-God's Word or the Calvinist/ELDONA method of putting human reason above the Word? GJ - Rationalists at Halle U. came up with the Easter absolution taught by Walther. JBFA is not Calvinism. Now some in ELDONA try to squiggle out of this false doctrine by saying that yes, Jesus took away the sins of the world, but you are only justified "by faith." My question to ELDONA: Exactly how does one be reconciled to God and have his sins taken away and not be justified in God's sight? Scripture teaches that faith receives the justification that was already accomplished on the cross and gains the benefit of that justification(subjective justification). Similar to Baptism. If you despise and reject your Baptism, it doesn't mean your Baptism was not valid objectively, but you do not receive the gift that was objectively given to you there if you do not trust in what it has given you. GJ - Jesus died for the sins of the world. This Gospel Promise is received in faith because the Holy Spirit brings Jesus' Promise to the individual. Thus we are counted forgiven, righteous, but only when we believe Him. Try to read Romans 4, the whole chapter. Better yet, read it to Rolf. I've seen the video and my response is to mark this ELDONA pastor as a false teacher and avoid him and his fellowship while praying for his/their repentance in this error. | ||
| Michael R. Frederick (Mikefr) New member Username: Mikefr Post Number: 9 Registered: 3-2015 |
Please - maybe I'm not as knowledgeable as you are - but I would still like to repeat my questions: Are his comments a correct characterization of Objective Justification? He speaks of UOJ as being the same thing as Objective Justification. Is that true? I just would like an answer to those questions. If you answered them I'm sorry, I didn't grasp the answer. Could you address those questions please? I know this forum is for Lutherans. I apologize if I have given offense. | ||
| Alan Lubeck (1431) Senior Member Username: 1431 Post Number: 1768 Registered: 11-2004 |
Michael, no offense taken at all. I incorrectly(apparently)assumed you were Lutheran. As a layman I would answer your questions as follows and be open to correction and clarification from any pastors out there who are more knowledgeable than I am. 1.Are his comments a correct characterization of Objective Justification? I would say yes, WELS and LCMS would teach justification for every person happened objectively at the cross when Christ made atonement for the sin of the world on the cross, and then was raised from the dead. We would also say faith is necessary for salvation because it believes and trusts in the justification that has been already been made for one on the cross. 2.He speaks of UOJ as being the same thing as Objective Justification. Is that true? If UOJ stands for "Universal Objective Justification", than yes, I would characterize it as being the same thing as Objective Justification. Subjective justification(though you didn't ask about it) would happen when a believes and trusts in Christ's Work of Justification for them on the cross. Hope this helps, Alan P.S. Here is a link to the WELS website which addresses objective justification https://wels.net/faq/objective-justification/ | ||
| Joe Krohn (Jekster) Advanced Member Username: Jekster Post Number: 618 Registered: 4-2011 |
General Justification; Universal Justification; Objective Justification and Universal Objective Justification all mean the same thing: That the Christ's universal atonement for the sins of the world results in the absolution of those sins regardless of whether one comes to faith. GJ - That is a correct definition of the heresy. Also add Justification of the World. The problem with ELDONA and others like them is they try to harmonize what is objective with what is subjective and you simply can't do that. You end up with caricatures that simply aren't true of the doctrine. GJ - Joe, Joe. You are juggling words but not dealing with the Word of God. Please read Romans 4 - Romans 5:1-2. It will do you a world of good. | ||
| Joe Krohn (Jekster) Advanced Member Username: Jekster Post Number: 619 Registered: 4-2011 |
BTW...I actually had a discussion on the particular ELDONA pastor's church Facebook page when he posted the series. I ended up getting blocked and the whole discussion was deleted. Ask anyone who denies UOJ if creation was redeemed in the death of Christ. You'll be amazed by their answer(s). GJ - Who denies UOJ? I see. That is the Chief Article, Joe? Your spit-valve is stuck. Apply oil and work it back and forth. You are just bubbling now. |
ICHABOD, THE GLORY HAS DEPARTED - explores the Age of Apostasy, predicted in 2 Thessalonians 2:3, to attack Objective Faithless Justification, Church Growth Clowns, and their ringmasters. The antidote to these poisons is trusting the efficacious Word in the Means of Grace. John 16:8. Isaiah 55:8ff. Romans 10. Most readers are WELS, LCMS, ELS, or ELCA. This blog also covers the Roman Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodoxy, and the Left-wing, National Council of Churches denominations.
Friday, October 12, 2018
LutherQueasies Bow at the Throne of Pope Walther - Daily, Hourly - So Sad
